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Too hipster for school

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Comments

  • #212
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    And if you don't get past the first job interview because of the beard ? Send dad in ? Obviously they will not say it's because of the beard.

    I got a job no problem and still have a beard. I never had a problem because of a beard.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The first sentence may be where the stories differ.

    And not sure about the validity of the second sentence at all. I would have thought control is vested in a Board of Management and dunno that there is any requirement to consult parents, although usually such Boards have parents on them.
    The principle had not gone to the board that was the issue. He just decided without telling anybody.


  • #213
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    This is what I was replying to



    Telling children to blindly obey rules is ridiculous and it's not how people teach children in practice. It's good that they don't teach children to blindly obey because they would become complete morons, not to mention amoral. No need for anarchy or 'special snowflakes' as you condescendingly put it.

    Is this the 'whole societal angle' your rebuttal rests on? Oh right...



    Clearly this next part is just a meaningless made up stat.






    I find it strange because I got my current job with whist sporting a trimmed and styled beard. Luckily, my interviewers we aren't openly prejudiced against men with facial hair. What an arbitrary thing to discriminate against. But, there was a rule in school which I presume you think ought to be conformed to, regardless of its implications

    Who said openly ? and on the other point you would not get the job either if you had what they consider a stupid haircut or untidy. That's how the real world works.


  • #214
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I have a beard.... I'm guessing you have not talked to anyone from HR either that hires people ?

    HR don't really hire people. They do admin stuff. Managers hire people. It would never even occur to me to consider someone's hair or face as a factor when hiring people. Are you just getting repeatedly turned down for jobs and blaming it on your beard? It might be something else, like your skill set or the way you answer questions or your seemingly cursory acquaintance with reality.


  • #215
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    pickarooney wrote: »
    HR don't really hire people. They do admin stuff. Managers hire people. It would never even occur to me to consider someone's hair or face as a factor when hiring people. Are you just getting repeatedly turned down for jobs and blaming it on your beard? It might be something else, like your skill set or the way you answer questions or your seemingly cursory acquaintance with reality.

    You got wonder what people who are so judgemental do when confronted with disability


  • #216
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,047 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    darkpagandeath wrote:
    Who said openly ? and on the other point you would not get the job either if you had what they consider a stupid haircut or untidy. That's how the real world works.

    You mean openly prejudice by not hiring so be one with a beard?

    Much as I might like to follow you into the long grass, my point is that teaching children to blindly follow rules is completely ridiculous. Childhood is when people developed the structures of their moral framework. Telling them to do as they're told and not to think about their actions, is far removed from developing a moral framework.

    Teaching them to understand the rules is far more important. It means they can play with the rules by going to the interview clean shaven and growing a beard after they get the job if they really want a beard. They will understand that there's nothing wrong with beards but some people are too rigid of thought to differenciate between morals and arbitrary rules.


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  • #217
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,985 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    Children with beards? That's just wrong, Ted!

    Not your ornery onager



  • #218
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    I got a job no problem and still have a beard. I never had a problem because of a beard.

    The principle had not gone to the board that was the issue. He just decided without telling anybody.

    He just decided the rule?

    You sure about that?

    Or are you saying he applied the rule they determined?


  • #219
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    He just decided the rule?

    You sure about that?

    Or are you saying he applied the rule they determined?

    Positive, this is a Christian Brother!


  • #220
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    No we don't. Again - laws =/= rule. You can choose to obey rules and get a different job, you can;t chosoe to afford laws.

    Laws are there for a reason - protention of society and order.
    Rules are not.

    And for the last time: there is now law saying a child or an adult may not grow a beard!



    Of no importance to how the student performs in school. If you judge someone - or influence others to judge someone - by their appearance and not their character - you're just being shallow.

    People here seem to think that it's more imporant for a student is that there appearance and adherance to the rules than to actually work hard and learn.

    Where did I or anyone else ever say there was law against having a beard The school have decided as one of the conditions for entry into the school is that students can't have beards he has disobeyed the rues of the school and has been suspended because of that.

    He can have as much facial hair as he likes as far as I'm concerned but his school have decided he can't have a beard in school and he should respect their rules or go to school somewhere else.


  • #221
    enzo roco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭enzo roco


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    And if you don't get past the first job interview because of the beard ? Send dad in ? Obviously they will not say it's because of the beard.

    What are you on about???
    I dont get that argument, Any job Ive had was a lot more easy going than school. Sure in school, I couldnt p1ss without permission.

    Myself and my peers, can have stubble, beards etc in work. Im sure there are jobs that dont allow beards for hygiene reasons.
    But common sense solves all issues in work. Just dont come in looking like a neanderthal and do your job.


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  • #222
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    rsh118 wrote: »
    Surely this kid is doing it in exactly the right way, he's standing up and making a case against a rule which doesn't make sense to him. It's a good piece of work in democracy.

    The school needs to offer a compromise or it's going to be left with egg on its face.

    No they won't the school can just tell him to follow the rules or he can go somewhere else for his education.

    If I turned up in work in the morning wearing a soccer jersey and a pair of shorts I'd be told fairly quickly to go home and change and be warned about my future conduct.

    You want to attend a school you have to follow their rules whether you like it or not.


  • #223
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,985 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    Simplez. Doctor's cert.

    Beards 1 School 0

    Not your ornery onager



  • #224
    enzo roco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭enzo roco


    Esel wrote: »
    Simplez. Doctor's cert.

    Beards 1 School 0

    Is a doctor going to say the beard cannot be shaved off or something?
    What do you mean?


  • #225
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,985 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    enzo roco wrote: »
    Is a doctor going to say the beard cannot be shaved off or something?
    Yes. Skin sensitivity, ingrowing hairs, folliculitis etc. IANAD...

    Not your ornery onager



  • #226
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Esel wrote: »
    Yes. Skin sensitivity, ingrowing hairs, folliculitis etc. IANAD...


    So basically he needs to give Dr Nick Rivieira a call to sort him out with a dodgy cert.


  • #227
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,985 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    He could also change religion...

    "Is it because I is a Pastafarian?"

    Not your ornery onager



  • #228
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    So it's exactly the same as a law.



    You think you teach them that by letting them ignore rules they don't like?

    Once again - where did I say that?

    If you guys want to debate this, please debate the posts I make. I can;t debate arguments you've made up and attributed to me

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #229
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Esel wrote: »
    He could also change religion...

    "Is it because I is a Pastafarian?"

    I would actually encourage anyone to do that:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/pastafarian-lindsay-miller-allowed-to-wear-colander-on-head-in-driving-licence-photo-a6735351.html

    Unless you're a Jedi, that's also a cool religion.


  • #230
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Where did I or anyone else ever say there was law against having a beard The school have decided as one of the conditions for entry into the school is that students can't have beards he has disobeyed the rues of the school and has been suspended because of that.

    You didn't. What you did was to say that "There are rules in all walks of life that we have to follow whether yer man in Monaghan wants to or not" - a rule you have to follow no matter what is a law.

    Your stance changes a little below: the "or nor" bit becomes "or go to school somewhere else".

    He can have as much facial hair as he likes as far as I'm concerned but his school have decided he can't have a beard in school and he should respect their rules or go to school somewhere else.

    So, I'm not actually disagreeing with you here. What I'm saying is that the rule is stupid and achieves nothing. I'm asking what its supposed to achieve, because it appears that the message is that you should never seek to debate or change laws, you should just blindly obey them. What's discouraging is that a lot of posters here seem to think that this is a good lesson to learn. Or they feel tat, until you're a certain age, you should have absoutely no say in the matter.

    As I said earlier, I would strongly advise the student, given the choice, to go somewhere else where they are more concerned about educating and teaching.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #231
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    You didn't. What you did was to say that "There are rules in all walks of life that we have to follow whether yer man in Monaghan wants to or not" - a rule you have to follow no matter what is a law.

    Your stance changes a little below: the "or nor" bit becomes "or go to school somewhere else".




    So, I'm not actually disagreeing with you here. What I'm saying is that the rule is stupid and achieves nothing. I'm asking what its supposed to achieve, because it appears that the message is that you should never seek to debate or change laws, you should just blindly obey them. What's discouraging is that a lot of posters here seem to think that this is a good lesson to learn. Or they feel tat, until you're a certain age, you should have absoutely no say in the matter.

    As I said earlier, I would strongly advise the student, given the choice, to go somewhere else where they are more concerned about educating and teaching.

    Rules achieve order and standards in situations and are followed by every single person in the world whether they think they are or not.

    Every work place has certain standards that employees have to follow if they want to keep their jobs.

    Having a dress code creates order and sets a standard in a school as everyone has to be dressed well.

    Children really shouldn't have a huge say in anything because they are children.Lets be honest most children would choose not to go to school for large parts of the year if it were up to them, or not do their homework etc .


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  • #232
    rsh118
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Rules are there to be challenged and he's doing it. Well done to the lad for not taking it sitting down. If you can't provide a rationale for a rule (I.e. dont pinch things because it's not nice) then the rule ha very little reason to exist and can be challenged.


  • #233
    Depp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Depp


    I dont get half the people in this thread, and its not like I'm some beard hating tightarse I keep a full beard 90% of the time and have more or less as long as I've been able, but you've got to have a bit of common sense here, its standard practice to be clean shaven for an interview and thats just the way it is in the real world, I love having a beard and I hate shaving it but I wouldn't dream of walking into an interview unshaven, appearances and first impressions go a long way and you can call it discrimination or racism or rape or whatever the **** you want but its just the way it is in the job market


  • #234
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    As I said earlier, I would strongly advise the student, given the choice, to go somewhere else where they are more concerned about educating and teaching.

    You have dropped this in a few times as if it's an either/or. "Either they allow beards or they are not concerned about educating and teaching".

    What is remarkable is that, of course, you are having a dig at a school that is ranked 11th in the IT's table on boys schools. Which would suggest they do the "educating and teaching" thing very well. You may, of course, disagree with this ranking.


  • #235
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Rules achieve order and standards in situations and are followed by every single person in the world whether they think they are or not.

    Every work place has certain standards that employees have to follow if they want to keep their jobs.

    Having a dress code creates order and sets a standard in a school as everyone has to be dressed well.

    Children really shouldn't have a huge say in anything because they are children.Lets be honest most children would choose not to go to school for large parts of the year if it were up to them, or not do their homework etc .

    Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make your statement any more fact: there is no rule that we must obey no matter what that is not a law. As i said: if it was a law, he'd have to comply. if it was not, he'd have a choice.

    The last point is bogus: yes, the probably wouldn't, but the usually understand why they need to. They don't need to have a clean shaven chin.

    You entire argument boils down to one thing: we rules for the sake of rule, regardless of the practical purpose they serve.
    It's not a matter of hygeine: this is a smokescreen (you can have a beard and be hygenic).
    It's not a matter of order: this is also a smokescreen (bearded people are not necessarily unruly).

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #236
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make your statement any more fact: there is no rule that we must obey no matter what that is not a law. As i said: if it was a law, he'd have to comply. if it was not, he'd have a choice.

    The last point is bogus: yes, the probably wouldn't, but the usually understand why they need to. They don't need to have a clean shaven chin.

    You entire argument boils down to one thing: we rules for the sake of rule, regardless of the practical purpose they serve.
    It's not a matter of hygeine: this is a smokescreen (you can have a beard and be hygenic).
    It's not a matter of order: this is also a smokescreen (bearded people are not necessarily unruly).

    It's not rules for the sake of rules, Try remaining employed not following the rules set down in the work place.


  • #237
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    It's not rules for the sake of rules, Try remaining employed not following the rules set down in the work place.

    Which point are you debating - rules for the sake of rules; or standards expected in the workplace?

    If the first: I don't think employments make up rules for the sake of rules for the sole purpose of teaching that employees should blindly learn to obey.

    If the second: I've dealt with this: there is no rule stating you can't just get a different job.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #238
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    This is what I was replying to



    Telling children to blindly obey rules is ridiculous and it's not how people teach children in practice. It's good that they don't teach children to blindly obey because they would become complete morons, not to mention amoral. No need for anarchy or 'special snowflakes' as you condescendingly put it.

    Is this the 'whole societal angle' your rebuttal rests on? Oh right...

    You can challenge a rule without breaking it just like you can challenge a law without breaking it. Surely it's better to teach kids to obey the rules in existence and work together to get them changed if they are too restrictive. My secondary school council was able to get the requirement for girls to wear skirts removed through petitioning and putting pressure on management. No need for anyone to breach any rules to get it done. The same can be done with laws in the real world.

    In any case, I already said the ban on facial hair is probably more to do with hygiene and health and safety and I find that perfectly reasonable.


  • #239
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,047 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Little CuChulainn wrote:
    You can challenge a rule without breaking it just like you can challenge a law without breaking it. Surely it's better to teach kids to obey the rules in existence and work together to get them changed if they are too restrictive. My secondary school council was able to get the requirement for girls to wear skirts removed through petitioning and putting pressure on management. No need for anyone to breach any rules to get it done. The same can be done with laws in the real world.

    This is much more along the lines of how it's actually done in real life. Some of the posts earlier in the thread were reactionary and along the lines of teaching children to blindly follow rules 'cos rules is rules'. Luckily most people take a more nuanced approach.


  • #240
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make your statement any more fact: there is no rule that we must obey no matter what that is not a law. As i said: if it was a law, he'd have to comply. if it was not, he'd have a choice.

    The last point is bogus: yes, the probably wouldn't, but the usually understand why they need to. They don't need to have a clean shaven chin.

    You entire argument boils down to one thing: we rules for the sake of rule, regardless of the practical purpose they serve.
    It's not a matter of hygeine: this is a smokescreen (you can have a beard and be hygenic).
    It's not a matter of order: this is also a smokescreen (bearded people are not necessarily unruly).

    It effectively is the law for the school as it is one of there conditions so he does have to comply if he wants to attend the school.The school have their own requirements and he has to comply with them whether they are in the law off the land or not, if he doesn't want to comply with them he can go to another school.If he feels so strongly about it perhaps he should take the school to court.

    Being dressed appropriately in work may not necessarily make you be more productive however it does reflect better on the company in the eyes of others and looks more professional and thus is a good rule to have in place.The same applies in this instance here where clearly the school have standards about the appearance of their students and want their students to look professional because it will reflect well on the school.

    You seem to forget that people make judgement on others constantly based on their appearance and people would initially judge someone in a professional environment less favourably if they were poorly dressed the same applies in this situation where the school clearly wants to make a good impression for itself and project a professional image to the world.

    The main problem is though that this guy went to a school knowing the rules and then decided he didn't like them so broke the rules, if you don't like the rules a school has then go to another school.


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  • #241
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Which point are you debating - rules for the sake of rules; or standards expected in the workplace?

    If the first: I don't think employments make up rules for the sake of rules for the sole purpose of teaching that employees should blindly learn to obey.

    If the second: I've dealt with this: there is no rule stating you can't just get a different job.

    I'm guessing you would have no problem with the young fella wanting a Mohawk then either ? His beard is not a natural one, It is clearly styled and Cut. Just like a hair cut. Beards do not naturally grow without mustache parts and cheek hair.


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