Too hipster for school

uck51js9zml2yt · 07-04-2016 04:41PM

Reminds me of the story of the new army recruit who asked his sergeant if he could grow a moustache.
The Sergeant replied that he could, but not on his time.

pickarooney · 07-04-2016 04:46PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

5th year and he can't spell 'principal' despite it no doubt being written on the door he was looking at. Jesus.

I'm a big believer in uniforms. Learn to comply. Bring able to follow the rules, no matter how stupid, is a life skill. One of the many things we learn in school. You can sock it to the man when you get into college but in the meantime teachers have enough to be doing without dealing with your perceived human right to express yourself through facial hair.

They obviously don't or they wouldn't waste everyone's time with this crap.

Muahahaha · 07-04-2016 05:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Bet I can find you stories of students getting into trouble for hairstyles in non Catholic schools outside Ireland.

Which would obviously put a bit of a dent in that theory that it's all about our issues with Catholicism.

I'm sure you can. But here in Ireland the ethos in schools is overwhelmingly Catholic. Interfering with students appearance is something that the Christian Brothers were all over back in the day. The nuns too, my sisters school always had battles with students over the length of their skirt.

I'm sure you could Google around and find schools in other countries who penalise students because they have an cultural outlook of conformity and authoritarianism. I'm just making the point that our own brand of authoritarianism stems from the way the religious orders ran schools. If this lad had of gone to school in Ireland in the 70's he'd be getting the leather belt off a Christian Brother instead of complaining about it on Facebook. Schools can no longer physically hurt students now but this case smacks of a culture of 'do as I say, not as I do'. I wonder how the Principal would react if a male teacher decided to grow a beard, would they sack him? Where would that slippery slope lead to? All the way to the Employment Appeals Tribunal I'd suspect.

The whole thing is a farce IMO. Like are beards all of a sudden bad or something? Some of the smartest people that ever lived had beards, billionaire businessmen like Alan Sugar and Richard Branson have beards. Are they not to be looked up to now or something?

The whole situation smacks of adults knowing better than children 'whats good for them'. They used to say that in the 70's and 80's too and we ended up with a nation of bruised and battered kids who resented what should have been the happiest days of their lives,rebelled against the Irish language and anything to do with the Church. This kind of authoritarianism has never done them much good.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-04-2016 05:15PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

5th year and he can't spell 'principal' despite it no doubt being written on the door he was looking at. Jesus.

I'm a big believer in uniforms. Learn to comply. Bring able to follow the rules, no matter how stupid, is a life skill. One of the many things we learn in school. You can sock it to the man when you get into college but in the meantime teachers have enough to be doing without dealing with your perceived human right to express yourself through facial hair.

Sounds like something out of 1984.

Mesrine65 · 07-04-2016 05:18PM

Lt Dan · 07-04-2016 05:19PM

Witchie wrote: »

A lad in my town has taken to the internets to moan about being bullied by his school for being sent home because of his beard. It is causing fierce debate hai on facebook. What do you think?

The Monaghan Mouth Facebook Page

Here is an extract of his rant on fb:

"Hello , my name is Hipster McHipster , I am 16 years old and I am in 5th year in St.Macartan's College , a catholic school .
This morning I was in my registration class and was sent to the vice principles office because of my beard . When I spoke to her , she said "you can not walk about this school with that beard" and then she took me to the principles office . He said to me "did you ever hear of the amish people over in america?" I said " Yes I did why?" , he then stated that I looked like one of them with the beard and said "you need to go home and shave it off" . I was just disgusted by it , it was racism , and discrimination to me as there was plenty of other people in my school with beards , some like mine and some different , the school has a policy against bullying and this was more or less bullying where I was told to go home and shave it off ."

A school is entitled to have rules

The lad needs to look up the dictionary meaning for "bullying", what a soft lot this young ones are today.

Racism? Discrimination? Everyone is being treated the same.

Lt Dan · 07-04-2016 05:24PM

Witchie wrote: »

Oh yeah, further in the rant, if you can't be arsed going to the link, he states that the school are bullying him.

Here's some more for you....

Having a beard is part of nature , its just hair , there is no rule in the school where you are not aloud to grow a beard . It's a catholic school , Jesus had a beard and he was catholic , this is just bullying . I'm not being racist by saying this but I was born in Ireland and I am catholic , not any other religion and certainly not an "amish" . My year head said in the principles office that I did not have permission to go to class . I had to get a taxi home from school which my auntie paid for as I rang her to collect me from school but she didn't have a babysitter. Anyways , that wasn't the point , the point is that you should be able to go anywhere at anytime and dress how you want and to look the way you want . It's your own choice , yes in school there is a uniform and I'll follow that rule and anyone would , but to be told how you should look is not a rule in my school , you always be told to be yourself but sure how can you when a school will tell you to be someone your not . I've been bullied before and I'm certainly not going to let a school do it to me . A school principle is just another person , he doesn't have power over you , he/she is not your mother/father , I have a rule for people , if they don't like how I look or for what I believe in then turn around and walk away . How are you suppose to prevent bullying from happening when the people trying to stop it bully you too!? Everyone is entitled to wear what they want and look the way they want . I'm asking the school tomorrow that if they don't accept how I look then I'm walking out of the school . I'm entitled to my manhood as well , every teenage boy is entitled to it ."

"Entitled". Sweet Jesus

"manhood" - Eh, the chap is still a child, under 18 , beard or no beard.

All Catholics in the school are not permitted to have a beard so the waffle about other religions is irrelevant. All hair must be neat and tidy. All hair includes beards.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-04-2016 05:44PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote:

I'm a big believer in uniforms. Learn to comply. Bring able to follow the rules, no matter how stupid, is a life skill. One of the many things we learn in school. You can sock it to the man when you get into college but in the meantime teachers have enough to be doing without dealing with your perceived human right to express yourself through facial hair.

This wins most ridiculous post I've seen in a while.

1 Why is learning about obeying rules 'no matter how stupid' necessary in school and not in college?
2 you must be the last remaining proponent of the Nuremberg defense
3 if teachers have 'enough to be doing without dealing with your perceived human right to express yourself through facial hair' then why make them enforce rules no matter how stupid they are? Couldn't they get on with other duties like... teaching?

Did some stupid rule tell you to write this post?

'Follow the rules no matter how stupid they are' is truly dreadful advice to give a child. Where does that sit with 'stand up for what's right' and teaching independence?

Little CuChulainn · 07-04-2016 06:05PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

When the argument is "you have to obey in adult life" then yes it does. We don't have to obey rules - we can choose to opt out. We do have to obey laws.

You've mentioned churches and jobs before, and I answered it before: we are not legally bound to these communities and their rules.

In schools, rules are the same as laws. You have to obey them while attending the school. Gets the students use to the concept before being released into the big bad world.

dr.fuzzenstein · 07-04-2016 06:17PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8&ab_channel=ragokin

I don't know how to communicate this, or even if it is possible. But the question of justice has concerned me greatly of late. And I say to any creature who may be listening, there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions.

I'm with the good captain on this

Christy42 · 07-04-2016 06:20PM

The rule is stupid and needs to change.

The fact that the kid's argument is so terrible makes me want to support the school. Can we get a student a little smarter than him to take this stand instead?

07-04-2016 06:42PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

When the argument is "you have to obey in adult life" then yes it does. We don't have to obey rules - we can choose to opt out. We do have to obey laws.

You seem to have fixed on this idea that the is some difference between rules and laws in terms of enforceability, when there isn't. If I wish to avoid a school rule, I can choose to go to a different school. If I wish to avoid paying car tax, I can choose not to drive a car. In each case the obligation only exists in a particular sphere and of course if I avoid that, I avoid both the rule or law.

There is a difference in terms of sanction. Criminal laws can result in imprisonment. But the Courts will often step in to enforce rules and regulations, or at least not allow them be broken. Such as enforcing the terms of a contract, being the rules governing the transaction.

Rules are certainly not less valid or somehow more flexible because they are not the same as criminal law. They can have very serious consequences. Those consequences can be enforced by the Courts.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-04-2016 06:53PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

In schools, rules are the same as laws. You have to obey them while attending the school. Gets the students use to the concept before being released into the big bad world.

I completely disagree with this authoritarian approach. It is more likely to teach children that rules are arbitrary and meaningless. It teaches children that they should act to avoid negative consequences, rather than acting on what is morally right. It also teaches them to be rigid in their thinking and devalues the idea of developing a moral code (because rules are more important than morals). No need to think about what's right, just learn the rules, follow the crowd, don't think. How dull.

Teaching children to do whatever they're told is ridiculous and must have been taught to you at a very early age.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-04-2016 07:02PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

In schools, rules are the same as laws. You have to obey them while attending the school. Gets the students use to the concept before being released into the big bad world.

So... we prepare them for the "big bad world" by telling them that they should never challenge rules, failing to teach them the difference between rules and laws and failing to teach them how to deal with authority and handle conflict resolution?

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to have fixed on this idea that the is some difference between rules and laws in terms of enforceability, when there isn't. If I wish to avoid a school rule, I can choose to go to a different school. If I wish to avoid paying car tax, I can choose not to drive a car. In each case the obligation only exists in a particular sphere and of course if I avoid that, I avoid both the rule or law.

The bit in bold is incorrect.

Which law are you avoiding by not driving? The law is if you drive you pay tax; if you don't, you don't. Law abided.

There is a difference in terms of sanction. Criminal laws can result in imprisonment. But the Courts will often step in to enforce rules and regulations, or at least not allow them be broken. Such as enforcing the terms of a contract, being the rules governing the transaction.

Rules are certainly not less valid or somehow more flexible because they are not the same as criminal law. They can have very serious consequences. Those consequences can be enforced by the Courts.

These are laws, not rules. Courts don't rule on rules being broken, just laws.

If a contract has been signed, it's automatically a matter of law. That's the whole point of a contract - to make an agreement legally binding!

rsh118 · 07-04-2016 07:03PM

Follow the rules and don't ask questions. What a generation that would produce! We already managed a good 800 of following the rules, but sure!

Little CuChulainn · 07-04-2016 07:29PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I completely disagree with this authoritarian approach. It is more likely to teach children that rules are arbitrary and meaningless. It teaches children that they should act to avoid negative consequences, rather than acting on what is morally right. It also teaches them to be rigid in their thinking and devalues the idea of developing a moral code (because rules are more important than morals). No need to think about what's right, just learn the rules, follow the crowd, don't think. How dull.

Teaching children to do whatever they're told is ridiculous and must have been taught to you at a very early age.

So it's exactly the same as a law.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So... we prepare them for the "big bad world" by telling them that they should never challenge rules, failing to teach them the difference between rules and laws and failing to teach them how to deal with authority and handle conflict resolution?

You think you teach them that by letting them ignore rules they don't like?

El_Duderino 09 · 07-04-2016 07:32PM

Little CuChulainn wrote:

So it's exactly the same as a law.

Wah? No idea what you're on about. What's exactly the same as a law?

darkpagandeath · 07-04-2016 07:37PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I completely disagree with this authoritarian approach. It is more likely to teach children that rules are arbitrary and meaningless. It teaches children that they should act to avoid negative consequences, rather than acting on what is morally right. It also teaches them to be rigid in their thinking and devalues the idea of developing a moral code (because rules are more important than morals). No need to think about what's right, just learn the rules, follow the crowd, don't think. How dull.

Teaching children to do whatever they're told is ridiculous and must have been taught to you at a very early age.

Ridiculous argument, How do you think society works ? There are rules unwritten and written rules. Conforming is part of society, We are not all special snowflakes. When you are in a job you may get away with growing a beard. But 8 times out of 10 attending an interview with one, will not get you passed the first post. Just like having a stupid hairstyle.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-04-2016 07:43PM

darkpagandeath wrote:

Ridiculous argument, How do you think society works ? There are rules unwritten and written rules. Conforming is part of society, We are not all special snowflakes. When you are in a job you may get away with growing a beard. But 8 times out of 10 attending an interview with one will not get you passed the first post. Just like having a stupid hairstyle.

If it's a ridiculous argument, it should be easy for you to rebut. Give it a go.

rsh118 · 07-04-2016 07:44PM

Surely this kid is doing it in exactly the right way, he's standing up and making a case against a rule which doesn't make sense to him. It's a good piece of work in democracy.

The school needs to offer a compromise or it's going to be left with egg on its face.

darkpagandeath · 07-04-2016 07:44PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If it's a ridiculous argument, it should be easy for you to rebut. Give it a go.

I just did, Try reading ?

El_Duderino 09 · 07-04-2016 07:54PM

darkpagandeath wrote:

I just did, Try reading ?

Humm. I don't think you did as good a job as you think. The 8/10 stat that you pulled out of the air was the knock-out blow.

darkpagandeath · 07-04-2016 08:00PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Humm. I don't think you did as good a job as you think. The 8/10 stat that you pulled out of the air was the knock-out blow.

Side stepping the whole society angle is see. Have you ever talked to anyone who hires in HR for example ? Beards, Stupid haircuts, Untidy, No suit. The list goes on for interviews.

07-04-2016 08:38PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

These are laws, not rules. Courts don't rule on rules being broken, just laws.

If a contract has been signed, it's automatically a matter of law. That's the whole point of a contract - to make an agreement legally binding!

"Automatically a matter of law".

I'm afraid that doesn't...make sense. At all.

Anyway, no, contracts are not "automatic law", and it sounds like are just throwing words at it and trying to draw disparate strands together.

Contracts are private agreements that can be enforced by law. Law provides remedies in the event of their breach, but they most certainly not "the law". Similar to, say, an agreement made between private entities about a dress code. And that too can be enforced by the law.

Ray Palmer · 07-04-2016 08:39PM

When I was in school the principle tried the same with me. Like the chap I had a chin strap but also had long hair. The principle had a massive comb over easily longer than my hair and the vice principle had a beard.
Called the 3rd-6th year in and told us all that he went to another school and they were all clean shaven and so should our school. As of the next day we were to be clean shaven or be sent home.
Next day we were all inspected and those with beards were all put aside. They then told us we would all be sent home tomorrow if we came in again. Then they said they were also going to bring in hair length rules. Came in he next day and the inspection happened the next day. We had one more chance and hair and beards must be cut and shaved. Told my mother and she said Ihad to do what the school said. Looked at my dad and he said nothing.
Went into school and the next day and inspection happen we are separated again. The speech starts and then my dad walks into the room. Walks up to the principle and says "No". The principle starts stuttering and trying to explain a new school rule. Basically my dad points out the principle had longer hair than pretty much everybody else in the room and the vice principle's beard was completely unkempt. If the principle wanted to enforce new rules he should consult the parents which he completely failed to do. Asking at what point did he think the parents might be bothered that their children were kept from class.
Now my dad was 6 foot 4 and 16 stone, always wore a suit,bearded and bald, really not that far off Sean Connary with out the looks. The principle about 5'10 christian brother with a massive comb over and the vice principle Brian Blessed like with tatty tweed jacket and 6' and massively over weight. To watch them cower in front of my dad was kind of cool. He didn't raise his voice or act aggressively other than being abrupt. He said goodbye and left without any acknowledgement who he was or who was his son.
There were two guys who knew it was my dad but nobody else in the room. So the everybody is standing there in silence and my dad has left. We are all sent off to our classes. My dad had never come to the school before so none of them had met him. The principle then starts calling people to the office over the day asking everybody was that their dad or did we know who's it was. Everybody knew by the end of the day but nobody told the principle directly. I'm sure he knew too but couldn't exactly call me in for lying.
Went home and my mam asked me about what the school said about my hair and beard. I just told her they dropped it and my dad didn't make any acknowledgement at all.
I was out with my dad about a year later and we bumped into the principle and I introduced him to my dad as if they never met. Good dad

darkpagandeath · 07-04-2016 08:44PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

When I was in school the principle tried the same with me. Like the chap I had a chin strap but also had long hair. The principle had a massive comb over easily longer than my hair and the vice principle had a beard.
Called the 3rd-6th year in and told us all that he went to another school and they were all clean shaven and so should our school. As of the next day we were to be clean shaven or be sent home.
Next day we were all inspected and those with beards were all put aside. They then told us we would all be sent home tomorrow if we came in again. Then they said they were also going to bring in hair length rules. Came in he next day and the inspection happened the next day. We had one more chance and hair and beards must be cut and shaved. Told my mother and she said Ihad to do what the school said. Looked at my dad and he said nothing.
Went into school and the next day and inspection happen we are separated again. The speech starts and then my dad walks into the room. Walks up to the principle and says "No". The principle starts stuttering and trying to explain a new school rule. Basically my dad points out the principle had longer hair than pretty much everybody else in the room and the vice principle's beard was completely unkempt. If the principle wanted to enforce new rules he should consult the parents which he completely failed to do. Asking at what point did he think the parents might be bothered that their children were kept from class.
Now my dad was 6 foot 4 and 16 stone, always wore a suit,bearded and bald, really not that far off Sean Connary with out the looks. The principle about 5'10 christian brother with a massive comb over and the vice principle Brian Blessed like with tatty tweed jacket and 6' and massively over weight. To watch them cower in front of my dad was kind of cool. He didn't raise his voice or act aggressively other than being abrupt. He said goodbye and left without any acknowledgement who he was or who was his son.
There were two guys who knew it was my dad but nobody else in the room. So the everybody is standing there in silence and my dad has left. We are all sent off to our classes. My dad had never come to the school before so none of them had met him. The principle then starts calling people to the office over the day asking everybody was that their dad or did we know who's it was. Everybody knew by the end of the day but nobody told the principle directly. I'm sure he knew too but couldn't exactly call me in for lying.
Went home and my mam asked me about what the school said about my hair and beard. I just told her they dropped it and my dad didn't make any acknowledgement at all.
I was out with my dad about a year later and we bumped into the principle and I introduced him to my dad as if they never met. Good dad

And if you don't get past the first job interview because of the beard ? Send dad in ? Obviously they will not say it's because of the beard.

pickarooney · 07-04-2016 08:44PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ridiculous argument, How do you think society works ? There are rules unwritten and written rules. Conforming is part of society, We are not all special snowflakes. When you are in a job you may get away with growing a beard. But 8 times out of 10 attending an interview with one, will not get you passed the first post. Just like having a stupid hairstyle.

Where in the name of **** did you pull that nonsense figure from? Is this your own personal antipathy towards beards showing or is there some insidious clique ruining the careers of hirsute men that we should know about?

darkpagandeath · 07-04-2016 08:48PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Where in the name of **** did you pull that nonsense figure from? Is this your own personal antipathy towards beards showing or is there some insidious clique ruining the careers of hirsute men that we should know about?

I have a beard.... I'm guessing you have not talked to anyone from HR either that hires people ?

07-04-2016 08:50PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Then they said they were also going to bring in hair length rules.
If the principle wanted to enforce new rules he should consult the parents which he completely failed to do.

The first sentence may be where the stories differ.

And not sure about the validity of the second sentence at all. I would have thought control is vested in a Board of Management and dunno that there is any requirement to consult parents, although usually such Boards have parents on them.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-04-2016 08:55PM

This is what I was replying to

Little CuChulainn wrote:

In schools, rules are the same as laws. You have to obey them while attending the school. Gets the students use to the concept before being released into the big bad world.

Telling children to blindly obey rules is ridiculous and it's not how people teach children in practice. It's good that they don't teach children to blindly obey because they would become complete morons, not to mention amoral. No need for anarchy or 'special snowflakes' as you condescendingly put it.

Is this the 'whole societal angle' your rebuttal rests on? Oh right...

darkpagandeath wrote:

Ridiculous argument, How do you think society works ? There are rules unwritten and written rules. Conforming is part of society, We are not all special snowflakes. When you're in a job you might get away with growing a beard.

Clearly this next part is just a meaningless made up stat.

darkpagandeath wrote:

But 8 times out of 10 attending an interview with one, will not get you passed the first post. Just like having a stupid hairstyle.

darkpagandeath wrote:

Side stepping the whole society angle is see. Have you ever talked to anyone who hires in HR for example ? Beards, Stupid haircuts, Untidy, No suit. The list goes on for interviews.

I find it strange because I got my current job with whist sporting a trimmed and styled beard. Luckily, my interviewers we aren't openly prejudiced against men with facial hair. What an arbitrary thing to discriminate against. But, there was a rule in school which I presume you think ought to be conformed to, regardless of its implications

Too hipster for school

Comments