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When aren't you a Catholic?

12467…19

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  • #92
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Permabear, I thought more about your question. It's a good question, but the analogy is missing an essential element that would make it work. I think the basic, underlying argument in this thread is that people who are arguably not Catholics in belief and/or practice could legitimately say they have "no religion" despite participating in religious life alongside people who are actual believers. I think we could argue persuasively that a clergy member who has lost their faith could honestly check "no religion", but that's kind of an extreme borderline case. If someone really has to consider whether "no religion" is an option for them, then it is an option for them. I don't mean to argue to devout people that they should deny their faith on a form if that is an act of great import and significance to them personally.

    Edit: Naturally the only two alternatives are not "Catholic" and "no religion". I was referring to people in a position to choose either. :)


  • #93
    etoughguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭etoughguy


    wahooo a religion bashing thread


  • #94
    Hercule Poirot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭Hercule Poirot


    I may be a bit behind the times but is there not a Catholic Register or something that you can request to be removed from - if it is something you are serious about?

    I personally have been baptised and the whole shebang but will be recording no religion on my form - there are only three reasons you will see me in a church, hatches, matches and dispatches - and only if I'm invited, on a few occasions I have found an excuse to skip the church part altogether

    As far as I'm concerned if you are not a practicing Catholic who goes to mass and genuinely believes in the Catholic dogma then you have no business ticking the Catholic box on the census form or even identifying as Catholic - it's a religion and should be treated with respect, you either are one or you are not


  • #95
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Hercule Poirot wrote: »
    I may be a bit behind the times but is there not a Catholic Register or something that you can request to be removed from - if it is something you are serious about?

    There hasn't been such a thing in many years. They stopped doing it because of its embarrassing popularity.


  • #96
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    etoughguy wrote: »
    wahooo a religion bashing thread

    Ah to be fair it's largely not been like that.


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  • #97
    Liberosis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭Liberosis


    beach_walker wrote: »
    I really think you're in loo-laa land if you think the Church keeps an active tally of the amount of Catholics in the Republic of Ireland. Consider what they would need to actively track

    1) The amount of baptisms per year.
    2) Somehow keep a track of each of these throughout their lives so as to properly remove them from the tally on their death. (again remember, there is no Catholic directory which makes this step neigh on impossible)
    3) Pay particular attention to parishes/archdioceses which straddle the border and update the tally with same (who's living on which side)

    That's just off the top of my head, not to mention the idea of "rejecting the census" is a bit off and something which in this country is seemingly solely the preview of atheists.

    Of course, that was rather short sighted of me. My point was simply that if in the 2016 census the number of respondents who ticked catholic was, for the sake of argument, 500,000. Now I think we can agree (even without figures) that it is very likely there are far more people baptised into the catholic church in Ireland than 500k. Therefore this hypothetical figure, from the Churches perspective would be inaccurate, due to their teaching that everyone who has been baptised is a catholic for life and cannot renounce their baptismal vows.


  • #98
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    Other than Funerals , Christenings , Weddings and family / Friends kids communions or conformations , i haven't been to mass , like just a Sunday mass or Christmas Easter whatever, since i was about 10.

    Given the only reason i'm ever in a church is for a Family member or friends event rather then the actual religious aspect of it, i will be putting down no religion.

    I think the CSO are missing an interesting stat by not putting in a question about actual participation in religious service.


  • #99
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    I think the CSO are missing an interesting stat by not putting in a question about actual participation in religious service.

    Well, is that really the government's business, if you think about it? Can you imagine the uproar? Cool statistic though. Just not for the Census.


  • #100
    etoughguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭etoughguy


    Jayop wrote: »
    Ah to be fair it's largely not been like that.

    Cheers I didn't read most of it!


  • #101
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Hercule Poirot wrote: »
    I may be a bit behind the times but is there not a Catholic Register or something that you can request to be removed from - if it is something you are serious about?

    I personally have been baptised and the whole shebang but will be recording no religion on my form - there are only three reasons you will see me in a church, hatches, matches and dispatches - and only if I'm invited, on a few occasions I have found an excuse to skip the church part altogether

    As far as I'm concerned if you are not a practicing Catholic who goes to mass and genuinely believes in the Catholic dogma then you have no business ticking the Catholic box on the census form or even identifying as Catholic - it's a religion and should be treated with respect, you either are one or you are not

    The last few times I went to mass I didn't have communion because I'm not sure where I stand. I disagree with so much of what the church preaches but I don't think I'm at the point where I can declare I have no belief yet. I've raised my kids as Catholic, got married in the church but I don't know where I want to have my funeral.


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  • #102
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #103
    leakyboots
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    You're not a Catholic if:

    You don't believe that is the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ up there on how ever many thousand altars across the country/world daily (if you think it's merely symbolic and representative, then you're a Protestant)
    You don't believe the Pope is infallible (if you do, you're a Protestant)
    You don't believe in Purgatory (like the rest of the Protestants)
    Mary is without sin and can hear the thoughts and prayers of everyone, all at once, from all over the world, in different languages. (If you think she was a woman who gave birth to Jesus and was very special but still a sinner like the rest of us... well, yep, you guessed it, you're a Protestant.)
    Salvation is obtained through baptism, keeping the Commandments and participating in the sacraments (Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, Anointing of the Sick). Having 'faith' alone is NOT good enough (that's for Protestants)

    Those few things there are the cornerstones on which the Roman Catholic Church is built and are what separates it from other religions.

    Just to clarify cos I was doing it in a joke-y manner, I genuinely don't have a problem with people having Faith and I do think some of the Church's teachings are to be commended. I had Faith once and it got me through bad times but for various reasons I no longer believe and absolutely despise the Catholic Church.

    I do have a problem with people who go A La Carte with their religion... and also with militant Atheists - they annoy just as much as the Godbotherers. But live and let live and all that, I just tune out.

    Respect your fellow man/woman/elders and don't be a dickhead to them.


  • #104
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Jayop wrote: »
    The last few times I went to mass I didn't have communion because I'm not sure where I stand. I disagree with so much of what the church preaches but I don't think I'm at the point where I can declare I have no belief yet. I've raised my kids as Catholic, got married in the church but I don't know where I want to have my funeral.

    Maybe you're a more general Christian rather than the specific denomination of Catholic.


  • #105
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    leakyboots wrote: »
    You're not a Catholic if:

    You don't believe that is the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ up there on how ever many thousand altars across the country/world daily (if you think it's merely symbolic and representative, then you're a Protestant)

    Yep

    You don't believe the Pope is infallible (if you do, you're a Protestant)

    The popes infallibility is only on certain issues and not everything every day.

    You don't believe in Purgatory (like the rest of the Protestants)

    They seem to have dropped that one from when I was a child. Never hear much about that place anymore

    Mary is without sin and can hear the thoughts and prayers of everyone, all at once, from all over the world, in different languages. (If you think she was a woman who gave birth to Jesus and was very special but still a sinner like the rest of us... well, yep, you guessed it, you're a Protestant.)

    The "virgin" thing is in dispute. Some translations from the original text not think that virgin may have referred to before her first period rather than an actual virgin.

    Salvation is obtained through baptism, keeping the Commandments and participating in the sacraments (Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, Anointing of the Sick). Having 'faith' alone is NOT good enough (that's for Protestants)

    That's all good, but if you do none of that then go to confessions you';re back to square one again.:)


    Those few things there are the cornerstones on which the Roman Catholic Church is built and are what separates it from other religions.

    Just to clarify cos I was doing it in a joke-y manner, I genuinely don't have a problem with people having Faith and I do think some of the Church's teachings are to be commended. I had Faith once and it got me through bad times but for various reasons I no longer believe and absolutely despise the Catholic Church.

    I do have a problem with people who go A La Carte with their religion... and also with militant Atheists - they annoy just as much as the Godbotherers. But live and let live and all that, I just tune out.

    Respect your fellow man/woman/elders and don't be a dickhead to them.

    ...


  • #106
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Maybe you're a more general Christian rather than the specific denomination of Catholic.

    Or maybe agnostic would be more accurate at the moment.


  • #107
    Letree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    Other than Funerals , Christenings , Weddings and family / Friends kids communions or conformations , i haven't been to mass , like just a Sunday mass or Christmas Easter whatever, since i was about 10.

    Given the only reason i'm ever in a church is for a Family member or friends event rather then the actual religious aspect of it, i will be putting down no religion.

    I think the CSO are missing an interesting stat by not putting in a question about actual participation in religious service.

    I would class anyone who uses the church for weddings, christenings and their funeral as still a Catholic. Its disingenuous for people to loudly proclaim as many do that they are not a catholic yet will still let their family have a Catholic funeral for them.

    I knew a lady a who died a few years back and she told her family before she died that she didn't want a Catholic burial as she was no longer religious. They had a non religious funeral for her. I really respected that stance. She had integrity.

    The usual response from atheists is that they don't care what their loved ones do with their body when that die. But this is obviously a cop out.


  • #108
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Letree wrote: »
    The usual response from atheists is that they don't care what their loved ones do with their body when that die. But this is obviously a cop out.

    Insofar as Catholicism obviously believes that death and what reportedly happens later settles the question for once and for all about when you are and are not a Catholic, I suppose you're right.

    As an atheist, I find that the response is a little more nuanced and put as, "I won't be there, so I won't be in a position to object". My husband and I have made our wishes for a non-religious disposal positively known, though.


  • #109
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    Letree wrote: »
    I would class anyone who uses the church for weddings, christenings and their funeral as still a Catholic. Its disingenuous for people to loudly proclaim as many do that they are not a catholic yet will still let their family have a Catholic funeral for them.

    I knew a lady a who died a few years back and she told her family before she died that she didn't want a Catholic burial as she was no longer religious. They had a non religious funeral for her. I really respected that stance. She had integrity.

    The usual response from atheists is that they don't care what their loved ones do with their body when that die. But this is obviously a cop out.

    It can be difficult for people , my friends dad died a few years back wasn't religious neither were the family but they live pretty rural and the only option was a church and local graveyard for the funeral , similarly I've had friends only baptise kids to ensure they can get a place in local schools or because they were being bullied for being the only kid in class not making communion.

    But none of those people believe any of the actual teachings Mary was a virgin , the bread is the body etc... or agree wthi the church re contraception , abortion , divorce , gay marriage , pre-marital sex ....

    So i don't really think they are Catholics in any sense really , the fact is in such a small country so lacking in state run or non religious crematoriums , graveyards , Schools etc... i can be difficult for people to avoid any interaction with the Church at all


  • #110
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Jayop wrote: »
    Yeah probably. I still go to mass a few times a year but I find more and more that I sit there sighing or just not listening at all.

    So why do you go? The only time I step foot in a church is for a funeral, wedding or christening. And even then I don't participate in anything.


  • #111
    DavyD_83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    Letree wrote: »
    I would class anyone who uses the church for weddings, christenings and their funeral as still a Catholic. Its disingenuous for people to loudly proclaim as many do that they are not a catholic yet will still let their family have a Catholic funeral for them.

    I knew a lady a who died a few years back and she told her family before she died that she didn't want a Catholic burial as she was no longer religious. They had a non religious funeral for her. I really respected that stance. She had integrity.

    The usual response from atheists is that they don't care what their loved ones do with their body when that die. But this is obviously a cop out.

    From a non-believers perspective, I do think funerals are more for those left behind than for the deceased. So I genuinely would let my wife/kids decide and do whatever gives most comfort.

    Given the choice I'd prefer no religious element as it would be more genuine to my own views, but see no real harm in it either. (would honestly feel same about being given a Catholic, Muslim, Jewish funeral; all as (ir)relevant to my day to day life and views).
    The nicest funeral I have attended in recent years was non-religious, and I think actually made a lot of people attending, religious and otherwise, realise that there may actually be other options.

    My current predicament would be what to do if I am in charge of the arrangements for somebody else. I think it's all nonsense, but know that a lot of other people would gain comfort from a religious funeral. I would try to honour that person's beliefs, but these days it is difficult to know what anybody truly wants unless it has been discussed.

    FWIW, didn't get married in Church; but have baptised child due to fears (not mine) for her eternal soul, and fears (not mine) of being excluded from Education and a nice day out (Communion). I have no intention of bringing her to mass or 'raising her catholic' , and will do my best to help her to make an informed decision on whether she wishes to properly opt in to any religion if/when it is a concern for her


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  • #112
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,025 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    similarly I've had friends only baptise kids to ensure they can get a place in local schools or because they were being bullied for being the only kid in class not making communion.

    Kids are little assh*les, bullying other kids for being too short/too tall/wearing glasses/having spots/being too smart/not being smart enough/red hair, etc etc list goes on and on...


  • #113
    Fian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭Fian


    Jayop wrote: »
    The "virgin" thing is in dispute. Some translations from the original text not think that virgin may have referred to before her first period rather than an actual virgin.

    Surely you are not suggesting any ambivalence on the part of the RC church with respect to pedophilia?

    Nah couldn't be. I have seen some far fetched theories in this thread but that one just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.


  • #114
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    smash wrote: »
    So why do you go? The only time I step foot in a church is for a funeral, wedding or christening. And even then I don't participate in anything.

    I go very rarely nowadays. Christmas, Easter, Funerals, anniversaries.

    Not quite there yet on whether I want to fully walk away or not.
    Fian wrote: »
    Surely you are not suggesting any ambivalence on the part of the RC church with respect to pedophilia?

    Nah couldn't be. I have seen some far fetched theories in this thread but that one just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.

    I can't remember where I heard that before. It was something to do with the word Almah and how there was a better word to specifically describe a virgin as we knew it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah


  • #115
    Fian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭Fian


    Letree wrote: »
    I would class anyone who uses the church for weddings, christenings and their funeral as still a Catholic. Its disingenuous for people to loudly proclaim as many do that they are not a catholic yet will still let their family have a Catholic funeral for them.

    I knew a lady a who died a few years back and she told her family before she died that she didn't want a Catholic burial as she was no longer religious. They had a non religious funeral for her. I really respected that stance. She had integrity.

    The usual response from atheists is that they don't care what their loved ones do with their body when that die. But this is obviously a cop out.

    I am an atheist. My wife is a christian. If she wants to bury my corpse that is fine with me, whatever makes her happy. Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I have to deny her any comfort she might get from that, it costs me nothing. I won't be around to see it and i will never know whether she does so or not.

    For exactly the same reason when I attend a funeral or a wedding, so that I am present during a mass, I am respectful towards the ceremony going on around me. It is not necessary for me to loudly announce that "by the way I am calling bull**** in this religious nonsense" because it is not about me. I am there to celebrate a wedding or a funeral, which I consider to be important occasions for entirely non-religious reasons, and my sitting through a ceremony I think is a waste of time is not something that costs me so much I should impose my views on the others present. So I sit there quietly and I will even happily shake the hand of someone who offers their's during that bit of the ceremony, again it doesn't really cost me anything.

    Why on earth would you think allowing a funeral after you are dead is a cop out? Do you honestly think these people are "hedging their bets" in case there is a god and this is the price of an admission ticket into heaven? If you do that is absurd.


  • #116
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Fian wrote: »
    I am an atheist. My wife is a christian. If she wants to bury my corpse that is fine with me, whatever makes her happy. Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I have to deny her any comfort she might get from that, it costs me nothing. I won't be around to see it and i will never know whether she does so or not.

    For exactly the same reason when I attend a funeral or a wedding, so that I am present during a mass, I am respectful towards the ceremony going on around me. It is not necessary for me to loudly announce that "by the way I am calling bull**** in this religious nonsense" because it is not about me. I am there to celebrate a wedding or a funeral, which I consider to be important occasions for entirely non-religious reasons, and my sitting through a ceremony I think is a waste of time is not something that costs me so much I should impose my views on the others present. So I sit there quietly and I will even happily shake the hand of someone who offers their's during that bit of the ceremony, again it doesn't really cost me anything.

    Why on earth would you think allowing a funeral after you are dead is a cop out? Do you honestly think these people are "hedging their bets" in case there is a god and this is the price of an admission ticket into heaven? If you do that is absurd.

    Aye but you have a normal sensible outlook on things. Something many people, especially those with extreme viewpoints generally fail to have.


  • #117
    MilesMorales1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,431 ✭✭✭MilesMorales1


    I am a catholic. Church twice a week and what not. Can't beat a bit of spirituality.


  • #118
    DanielODonnell
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 652 ✭✭✭DanielODonnell


    You are only a Catholic if you attend mass, you are only a Christian if you attend service and live a Christian life.
    not all Catholics are real Christians

    atheists are just brainwashed people who cannot see the light


  • #119
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • #120
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    DanielODonnell wrote: »
    atheists are just brainwashed people who cannot see the light

    And the thread was going along so nicely.

    This is why we can't have nice things on boards. :rolleyes:


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  • #121
    DanielODonnell
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 652 ✭✭✭DanielODonnell


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    a Christian gathering. who is Ian?


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