When aren't you a Catholic?

Jayop

traprunner wrote: »

Yeah, the church are fans of fiction!


You are catholic if you believe in all that stuff. You are not if you don't believe. Just because your parents got a book with your name printed as one of the characters does not mean you are really that character.

Can you have doubts or do you have to be absolutely certain?

Speedwell

Jayop wrote: »

Can you have doubts or do you have to be absolutely certain?

The question asks whether you are a member of the religion, I suppose, not whether you are a member in good standing. But nearly anyone who considers answering "no" should do, in my opinion.

Liberosis

henryporter wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you put down Catholic or No Religion or anything in between - almost everyone else will stick down Catholic and thereby skew the results - amazing the amount of fluent Irish speaking devout Catholics there are in the country every 5 years

I don't know now, I reckon that the two biggest movers on the census this year will be the number of people claiming to be fluent Irish speakers and the number claiming to be catholic.

We've changed a good bit since 2011, just look at the same sex marriage referendum. The church's vocal opposition was ignored by the majority, showing they are undoubtedly losing their influence.

VinLieger

beach_walker wrote: »

Well despite what a lot of people think, there is no actual "book" from which you can be removed. There is no central archive in the Vatican. Catholicism teaches that once baptised into the church, you are (and always will be) Catholic. Not the same thing at all but seems to be a big sticking point for some for some reason.

OP for the purposes of the census, I imagine most people could put it together themselves where they stand on the issue. There is no set list of things needed to actively do to consider yourself as such.

Its a big sticking point because the church and the likes of Iona use the numbers of those baptised to lobby with. My name is unfortunately one of those numbers and yet I had no choice in it being added to that list and certainly do not appreciate it being used to lobby for a catholic agenda that i disagree very strongly with.

And regarding your assertion that the census is clear cut I would disagree for two reasons, there is still a ridiculous amount of cultural Catholicism where people call themselves catholic for appearances sake but thankfully this is finally on the way out. Then the fact that atheism or agnosticism do not appear as options on the census form and must be written in as other and then no religion is left at the very bottom make for a very leading question that encourages lazy answering as people will just tick the first box without properly thinking about it and also partly due again to the cultural catholicism

beach_walker

henryporter wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you put down Catholic or No Religion or anything in between - almost everyone else will stick down Catholic and thereby skew the results

How's it skewing the results? There's a question and people tick which they think applies to them. Just because the majority don't agree with you, it doesn't imply the results are wrong and it's hardly up to you to judge who is and isn't a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim whatever.

Jayop

Speedwell wrote: »

The question asks whether you are a member of the religion, I suppose, not whether you are a member in good standing. But nearly anyone who considers answering "no" should do, in my opinion.

I agree totally, but a few people seem to be making the assertion that unless you're fully convinced then you're not a real Catholic. I'd imagine that most true Catholics struggle with their faith all the time. Blind belief is pointless.

foggy_lad

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

once you are baptised you are a catholic till you die!

The church used to allow people to renounce their baptismal vows that were made on their behalf by parents etc but so many were doing it they stopped allowing it.

Speedwell

Jayop wrote: »

I agree totally, but a few people seem to be making the assertion that unless you're fully convinced then you're not a real Catholic. I'd imagine that most true Catholics struggle with their faith all the time. Blind belief is pointless.

I'm not a Catholic, but I think Catholicism is pretty strict on "if and only if" doctrinal orthodoxy. I would also be careful about directly criticizing "blind faith" in a thread on religion outside A/A, but I get your point.

My personal opinion is that most people's wishes weren't consulted when they were born and brought up in a religion, so there's no need to notify the religion when you walk away.

beach_walker

VinLieger wrote: »

Its a big sticking point because the church and the likes of Iona use the numbers of those baptised to lobby with. My name is unfortunately one of those numbers and yet I had no choice in it being added to that list and certainly do not appreciate it being used to lobby for a catholic agenda that i disagree very strongly with.

Then put down your 'No religion' on the form. I'm not sure why you think the Catholic church should overturn one of its most fundamental beliefs (i.e. that once a soul is baptised, that's it)... I mean you don't believe so what's the deal? And as already said, there is no central (Earthly :pac: ) repository of these numbers/names. The only numbers I've heard in that context which you describe have been those taken from the census results.

anothernight

Isn't this what the Nicene creed is for?

Elemonator

Why aren't I a Catholic?

I was horrified by the child abuse scandals. They could have made reparations some of it, but instead tried to deny and cover it up. Most hypocritical Order of Nonsense ever.

Speedwell

anothernight wrote: »

Isn't this what the Nicene creed is for?

We occasionally recited it in Protestant churches I used to belong to as a child, so that's at least debatable.

FrStone

Liberosis wrote: »

I don't know now, I reckon that the two biggest movers on the census this year will be the number of people claiming to be fluent Irish speakers and the number claiming to be catholic.

We've changed a good bit since 2011, just look at the same sex marriage referendum. The church's vocal opposition was ignored by the majority, showing they are undoubtedly losing their influence.

On for heavens sake. Huge amounts of us will tick roman Catholic. It seems like only yesterday people are saying the same thing that the 2011 cencus would see a significant reduction in catholics. How ridiculous that turned out to be.

VinLieger

beach_walker wrote: »

Then put down your 'No religion' on the form. I'm not sure why you think the Catholic church should overturn one of its most fundamental beliefs (i.e. that once a soul is baptised, that's it)... I mean you don't believe so what's the deal? And as already said, there is no central (Earthly :pac: ) repository of these numbers/names. The only numbers I've heard in that context which you describe have been those taken from the census results.

Because I was baptised unwillingly into a religion I do not believe in and they still claim I am part of.

I do put down no religion and have in every census I have had a choice in the matter on but it still does not remove the fact that the catholic church an institution I have severe problems with still consider me a lifetime member.

Also they do record the year over year baptism numbers so no there isn't a repository of names but theres is a number recorded in each country every year that is announced as a global number http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-statistics-report-increase-baptized-catholics-worldwide

Liberosis

FrStone wrote: »

On for heavens sake. Huge amounts of us will tick roman Catholic. It seems like only yesterday people are saying the same thing that the 2011 cencus would see a significant reduction in catholics. How ridiculous that turned out to be.

Sorry if I offended you Father.

mahoganygas

This is the big problem I have with a la carte Catholicism.

Irish people who believe there is 'something' up there but don't believe transubstantiation or homosexuality as a sin often label themselves as "shur, I'm still a catholic though".

I could believe that Jesus was a holy man in Jerusalem, that the Old testament teaches us moral fables from the time of Abraham and that there is definitely a God up there. But I'm not too keen on the Pope's in infallibility and I'm skeptical about some of the Vatican's teachings.
Yes, you could describe me as a Catholic. But you could also describe me as Jewish or Muslim too.

Where does Catholicism begin or end? When do you stop being a Catholic and start being a Protestant? Or a Jew? Or atheist?


My favorite part about this whole scam is that the Catholic church make it nice and simple for us. They don't need to clarify which teachings are mandatory to be a Catholic. There are no red line issues. There are no optional teachings you don't have to believe but can still remain in the club. It's much easier than that.
If a man in a dress poured water on your head when you were so small you couldn't speak, walk or object.....then you are a Catholic for life. No need to worry your little head about it ever again.


*Please tick "no religion" on April 24th. It matters.*

beach_walker

VinLieger wrote: »

Because I was baptised unwillingly into a religion I do not believe in and they still claim I am part of.

I do put down no religion and have in every census I have had a choice in the matter on but it still does not remove the fact that the catholic church an institution I have severe problems with still consider me a lifetime member.

I'm just gonna shrug my shoulders at this point. The central belief of the sacrament of baptisim isn't going to be changed. That's that really. I just waded in here to clarify some of what I see as common misconceptions re that.

Incidentally, are ye aware of the Mormon practice of baptising the dead? It's fascinating really but essentially as part of their missionary work, an individual can take it on themselves to baptise the dead into the Mormon faith. I met a couple doing such a while back, they were trawling through death notices from long ago in small towns in a rural area of the UK. I obviously don't believe or agree with them, hell they could have done it to me without me knowing :pac: , so I don't care. Would such an act if done to you anger you?

Also they do record the year over year baptism numbers so no there isn't a repository of names but theres is a number recorded in each country every year that is announced as a global number http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-statistics-report-increase-baptized-catholics-worldwide

I didn't know that, thank you for the link.

Boom_Bap

I had a priest try to drown me when I was an infant. Thankfully he was too cheap to provide enough water and my wailing and wriggling was enough to evade the attack. The only scar I was left with was being branded a Catholic but got a cool piece of paper to prove it.

wnolan1992

foggy_lad wrote: »

once you are baptised you are a catholic till you die!

In the eyes of the Church. Which doesn't mean that much if you choose not to be a member of that Church.


IMO, it's a completely personal thing. If you feel you're Catholic, you're Catholic. If you don't, you don't.

Example, I no longer believe that there's a God (borderline atheist-agnostic depending on the day). Therefore, regardless of whether I was baptised or not, I'm no longer a Catholic in my own mind, which is all that matters. So I'll be selecting "No Religion" on the form.

meeeeh

Whatever people believe themselves to be. I don't know why there is always someone who is better 'informed' telling people what to do. People should thick whatever they feel like it.

And yes all the sacraments my parents sent me too do had feck all influence on my beliefs. I considered myself atheist while I was doing confirmation and nothing changed. We got a day out if it and a few presents.

VinLieger

beach_walker wrote: »

I'm just gonna shrug my shoulders at this point. The central belief of the sacrament of baptisim isn't going to be changed. That's that really. I just waded in here to clarify some of what I see as common misconceptions re that.

Incidentally, are ye aware of the Mormon practice of baptising the dead? It's fascinating really but essentially as part of their missionary work, an individual can take it on themselves to baptise the dead into the Mormon faith. I met a couple doing such a while back, they were trawling through death notices from long ago in small towns in a rural area of the UK. I obviously don't believe or agree with them, hell they could have done it to me without me knowing :pac: , so I don't care. Would such an act if done to you anger you?



I didn't know that, thank you for the link.

Im very aware of the mormon traditions but thankfully they arent a large powerful group that regularly lobby the government in this country so I don't have to worry or care about them, I do care about the churches influence over national decision making though and I do not believe for one second that the leaders of the irish church do not have the national baptism numbers to hand everytime they come face to face with whoever is in government at the time, they may not be a published number but that number definitely exists which means it is more than likely made use of

Lollipops23

More people need to be honest about their religious beliefs on the census- maybe we might move towards a more secular (sane) society.


I'll be ticking "no religion" as I don't believe in any magic man in the sky.

DavyD_83

Sonics2k wrote: »

Only in a technical sense, but in a more theological sense, the more important one, you're not a Catholic.

Surely the purpose of any statistical survey is to capture the technical data, rather than one of your own opinion of yourself.
Has nobody from the Census made any sort of statement on what is the actual meaning of the question?

Although your own theological standpoint is obviously more important regarding how you live your life, should it be how you decide whether to tick a box or not?
Basically tick it or don't depending on how 'holy' you feel on the day?
If I'm feeling a bit less masculine on the day, should i consider ticking Female too?

People who create and administer surveys, should be able to explain the questions they put in them in a way that will leave no ambiguity and lead to the most consistent and accurate responses.

I still don't know what I am actually meant to tick in order to comply with my requirement to provide accurate information.
I'm not a practicing catholic, and don't really see myself as one. But i'm baptised, and have just baptised my daughter (not entirely my choice). Although I don't personally think we're 'real Catholics', it seems even more disingenuous to say we're not Catholics at all .

nicowa

If the only reason you would baptise your children is to get them into a school - put down no religion (or other).

Speedwell

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Surely the purpose of any statistical survey is to capture the technical data, rather than one of your own opinion of yourself.
Has nobody from the Census made any sort of statement on what is the actual meaning of the question?

My census enumerator explained carefully to me that the purpose of the survey was to enable government to properly represent the people in the formulation of public policy. That is not exactly the same as technical accuracy of count. If you think "no religion" better reflects your actual preference as far as public policy goes, then ticking a religion you no longer believe yourself part of is not serving any meaningful goal.

beach_walker

FWIW I don't think the religion question belongs on the census. It's no business of the State imo.

PlainP

It becomes an issue when you have mammy and daddy filling in the form for the household.

Mammy and daddy may still be practicing and they may still believe that dearest son/daughter is still practicing and therefore fill in the form that all in the household are catholic.

I think this is where the fallacy arises and this may be the biggest hurdle in getting the numbers to match up.

Into The Blue

kneemos wrote: »

If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.

Not quite, you're on the books as being catholic at one stage.

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

I'm a Jew but not "Jewish" for those reasons.

So...I'm a Cath but not "Catholic"?

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

So...I'm a Cath but not "Catholic"?

Are you a Cath? I know a Cath. She's a nice lady.

No, seriously If "Cathishness" is an ethnicity, and you think you are of that ethnicity, I'm not going to argue with you, lol.