When aren't you a Catholic?

kneemos

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

thattequilagirl

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

They should definitely break it down into practicing and non-practicing.

Jayop

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

Yeah probably. I still go to mass a few times a year but I find more and more that I sit there sighing or just not listening at all.

Radharc na Sleibhte

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

I'm gonna put down no.

Sonics2k

Because I don't believe it, I don't accept Transubstantiation is a real thing and I don't accept Catholic Dogmas.

If you don't believe these things, then you are quite simply, not a Catholic.

castletownman

When I am eating a steak, and washing it down with a pint on Good Friday, and following it up by having pre-marital sex with the GF.

CIARAN_BOYLE

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

Do you want a Catholic school for your children?

Speedwell

You aren't a Catholic when you don't bother going or you wish you could not bother going to Mass, and the idea of being claimed as a member by the Catholic Church seems slightly distasteful or worse. Same goes for other religions; I'm a Jew but not "Jewish" for those reasons.

kneemos

Sonics2k wrote: »

Because I don't believe it, I don't accept Transubstantiation is a real thing and I don't accept Catholic Dogmas.

If you don't believe these things, then you are quite simply, not a Catholic.

If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.

Skylinehead

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

You're whatever you put down on the form, regardless of whether the church is too clingy to let you go.

Speedwell

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Do you want a Catholic school for your children?

Would you rather have a school that reflects how you think the world should work and how your children should be educated?

endacl

kneemos wrote: »

If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.

The church's books. Not books that matter.

Fian

You are not a Catholic if you don't believe in Catholicism.

I don't mean to go as far as to suggest you are not a catholic unless you agree with the church that contraception, abortion, divorce and homosexuality are sinful, though strictly speaking that is arguably true.

But if you don't believe that God created the Earth and that Jesus was the son of God, that he "died for our sins" and that we will go to heaven or hell (or purgatory or Limbo) after death depending on how diligently we followed the commands of God during our lifetime - then you can't consider yourself to be a Catholic.

endacl

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Do you want a Catholic school for your children?

Nah.

Sonics2k

kneemos wrote: »

If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.

Only in a technical sense, but in a more theological sense, the more important one, you're not a Catholic.

endacl

Fian wrote: »

You are not a Catholic if you don't believe in Catholicism.

I don't mean to go as far as to suggest you are not a catholic unless you agree with the church that contraception, abortion, divorce and homosexuality are sinful, though strictly speaking that is arguably true.

But if you don't believe that God created the Earth and that Jesus was the son of God, that he "died for our sins" and that we will go to heaven or hell (or purgatory or Limbo) after death depending on how diligently we followed the commands of God during our lifetime - then you can't consider yourself to be a Catholic.

Not quite. All of that plus transubstantiation. Without the cannibalism, you're only a christian.

The Backwards Man

I'm not on their books. Any dealings I have with them are strictly cash in hand.

osarusan

I'm always never one.

Liberosis

Fian wrote: »

You are not a Catholic if you don't believe in Catholicism.

I don't mean to go as far as to suggest you are not a catholic unless you agree with the church that contraception, abortion, divorce and homosexuality are sinful, though strictly speaking that is arguably true.

But if you don't believe that God created the Earth and that Jesus was the son of God, that he "died for our sins" and that we will go to heaven or hell (or purgatory or Limbo) after death depending on how diligently we followed the commands of God during our lifetime - then you can't consider yourself to be a Catholic.

Absolutely, although correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read somewhere that the church teaches that once you're baptized, you're in for life. That's bull IMO.

Ironically one of the reasons I abandoned the Catholicism is because I went to a catholic school. Well, that and because the food is sh1t.

suicide_circus

Bishop Facks: So, Father. Do you ever have any doubts about the religious life? Is your faith ever tested? Anything you would be worried about? Any doubts you've been having about any aspects of belief? Anything like that?

Father Dougal: Well, you know the way God made us all, right? And he's looking down at us from heaven and everything?

Bishop Facks: Uh-huh.

Father Dougal: And then his son came down and saved everyone and all that?

Bishop Facks: Yes.

Father Dougal: And when we die we're all going to go to heaven?

Bishop Facks: Yes. What about it?

Father Dougal: Well, that's the bit I have trouble with.

beach_walker

kneemos wrote: »

If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.

Well despite what a lot of people think, there is no actual "book" from which you can be removed. There is no central archive in the Vatican. Catholicism teaches that once baptised into the church, you are (and always will be) Catholic. Not the same thing at all but seems to be a big sticking point for some for some reason.

OP for the purposes of the census, I imagine most people could put it together themselves where they stand on the issue. There is no set list of things needed to actively do to consider yourself as such.

Mr. CooL ICE

Born atheist, baptised roman catholic, but answered "no religion" in the last census.

Speedwell

It strikes me that our answers to that question on the census form are more an expression of how we want the government to think of public policy than they are a hair-splitting test of faith and dogma. If you wish the government would butt the hell out of public religious expression, tell it you don't have one.

eviltwin

I'm not a Catholic because I don't believe in God but even if I did believe I'd think I'd just do my own thing rather than belong to an organisation that has such little respect for people.

Galwayguy35

thattequilagirl wrote: »

They should definitely break it down into practicing and non-practicing.

I don't see why, if someone isn't going to Mass then they aren't a Catholic because going to Church is part of the deal.

People need to be honest with themselves.

eviltimeban

eviltwin wrote: »

I'd think I'd just do my own thing .

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

Liberosis

"I'm staunchly atheist, I simply don't believe in God. But I'm still Catholic, of course. Catholicism has a much broader reach than just the religion. I'm technically Catholic, it's the box you have to tick on the census form: 'Don't believe in God, but I do still hate Rangers."

- Dara O Briain

sbsquarepants

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't see why, if someone isn't going to Mass then they aren't a Catholic because going to Church is part of the deal.

People need to be honest with themselves.

NO.

being honest with yourself is even worse than being honest with other people - no good can ever come of it.:mad:

henryporter

Doesn't matter if you put down Catholic or No Religion or anything in between - almost everyone else will stick down Catholic and thereby skew the results - amazing the amount of fluent Irish speaking devout Catholics there are in the country every 5 years

Speedwell

henryporter wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you put down Catholic or No Religion or anything in between - almost everyone else will stick down Catholic and thereby skew the results - amazing the amount of fluent Irish speaking devout Catholics there are in the country every 5 years

You aren't kidding, there. I had a friend back in the Bible Belt of the American South accuse me of moving to Ireland "to get away from religious people". Ahem.

traprunner

kneemos wrote: »

If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.

Yeah, the church are fans of fiction!


You are catholic if you believe in all that stuff. You are not if you don't believe. Just because your parents got a book with your name printed as one of the characters does not mean you are really that character.

Jayop

traprunner wrote: »

Yeah, the church are fans of fiction!


You are catholic if you believe in all that stuff. You are not if you don't believe. Just because your parents got a book with your name printed as one of the characters does not mean you are really that character.

Can you have doubts or do you have to be absolutely certain?

Speedwell

Jayop wrote: »

Can you have doubts or do you have to be absolutely certain?

The question asks whether you are a member of the religion, I suppose, not whether you are a member in good standing. But nearly anyone who considers answering "no" should do, in my opinion.

Liberosis

henryporter wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you put down Catholic or No Religion or anything in between - almost everyone else will stick down Catholic and thereby skew the results - amazing the amount of fluent Irish speaking devout Catholics there are in the country every 5 years

I don't know now, I reckon that the two biggest movers on the census this year will be the number of people claiming to be fluent Irish speakers and the number claiming to be catholic.

We've changed a good bit since 2011, just look at the same sex marriage referendum. The church's vocal opposition was ignored by the majority, showing they are undoubtedly losing their influence.

VinLieger

beach_walker wrote: »

Well despite what a lot of people think, there is no actual "book" from which you can be removed. There is no central archive in the Vatican. Catholicism teaches that once baptised into the church, you are (and always will be) Catholic. Not the same thing at all but seems to be a big sticking point for some for some reason.

OP for the purposes of the census, I imagine most people could put it together themselves where they stand on the issue. There is no set list of things needed to actively do to consider yourself as such.

Its a big sticking point because the church and the likes of Iona use the numbers of those baptised to lobby with. My name is unfortunately one of those numbers and yet I had no choice in it being added to that list and certainly do not appreciate it being used to lobby for a catholic agenda that i disagree very strongly with.

And regarding your assertion that the census is clear cut I would disagree for two reasons, there is still a ridiculous amount of cultural Catholicism where people call themselves catholic for appearances sake but thankfully this is finally on the way out. Then the fact that atheism or agnosticism do not appear as options on the census form and must be written in as other and then no religion is left at the very bottom make for a very leading question that encourages lazy answering as people will just tick the first box without properly thinking about it and also partly due again to the cultural catholicism

beach_walker

henryporter wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you put down Catholic or No Religion or anything in between - almost everyone else will stick down Catholic and thereby skew the results

How's it skewing the results? There's a question and people tick which they think applies to them. Just because the majority don't agree with you, it doesn't imply the results are wrong and it's hardly up to you to judge who is and isn't a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim whatever.

Jayop

Speedwell wrote: »

The question asks whether you are a member of the religion, I suppose, not whether you are a member in good standing. But nearly anyone who considers answering "no" should do, in my opinion.

I agree totally, but a few people seem to be making the assertion that unless you're fully convinced then you're not a real Catholic. I'd imagine that most true Catholics struggle with their faith all the time. Blind belief is pointless.

foggy_lad

kneemos wrote: »

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

once you are baptised you are a catholic till you die!

The church used to allow people to renounce their baptismal vows that were made on their behalf by parents etc but so many were doing it they stopped allowing it.

Speedwell

Jayop wrote: »

I agree totally, but a few people seem to be making the assertion that unless you're fully convinced then you're not a real Catholic. I'd imagine that most true Catholics struggle with their faith all the time. Blind belief is pointless.

I'm not a Catholic, but I think Catholicism is pretty strict on "if and only if" doctrinal orthodoxy. I would also be careful about directly criticizing "blind faith" in a thread on religion outside A/A, but I get your point.

My personal opinion is that most people's wishes weren't consulted when they were born and brought up in a religion, so there's no need to notify the religion when you walk away.

beach_walker

VinLieger wrote: »

Its a big sticking point because the church and the likes of Iona use the numbers of those baptised to lobby with. My name is unfortunately one of those numbers and yet I had no choice in it being added to that list and certainly do not appreciate it being used to lobby for a catholic agenda that i disagree very strongly with.

Then put down your 'No religion' on the form. I'm not sure why you think the Catholic church should overturn one of its most fundamental beliefs (i.e. that once a soul is baptised, that's it)... I mean you don't believe so what's the deal? And as already said, there is no central (Earthly :pac: ) repository of these numbers/names. The only numbers I've heard in that context which you describe have been those taken from the census results.

anothernight

Isn't this what the Nicene creed is for?

Elemonator

Why aren't I a Catholic?

I was horrified by the child abuse scandals. They could have made reparations some of it, but instead tried to deny and cover it up. Most hypocritical Order of Nonsense ever.

Speedwell

anothernight wrote: »

Isn't this what the Nicene creed is for?

We occasionally recited it in Protestant churches I used to belong to as a child, so that's at least debatable.

FrStone

Liberosis wrote: »

I don't know now, I reckon that the two biggest movers on the census this year will be the number of people claiming to be fluent Irish speakers and the number claiming to be catholic.

We've changed a good bit since 2011, just look at the same sex marriage referendum. The church's vocal opposition was ignored by the majority, showing they are undoubtedly losing their influence.

On for heavens sake. Huge amounts of us will tick roman Catholic. It seems like only yesterday people are saying the same thing that the 2011 cencus would see a significant reduction in catholics. How ridiculous that turned out to be.

VinLieger

beach_walker wrote: »

Then put down your 'No religion' on the form. I'm not sure why you think the Catholic church should overturn one of its most fundamental beliefs (i.e. that once a soul is baptised, that's it)... I mean you don't believe so what's the deal? And as already said, there is no central (Earthly :pac: ) repository of these numbers/names. The only numbers I've heard in that context which you describe have been those taken from the census results.

Because I was baptised unwillingly into a religion I do not believe in and they still claim I am part of.

I do put down no religion and have in every census I have had a choice in the matter on but it still does not remove the fact that the catholic church an institution I have severe problems with still consider me a lifetime member.

Also they do record the year over year baptism numbers so no there isn't a repository of names but theres is a number recorded in each country every year that is announced as a global number http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-statistics-report-increase-baptized-catholics-worldwide

Liberosis

FrStone wrote: »

On for heavens sake. Huge amounts of us will tick roman Catholic. It seems like only yesterday people are saying the same thing that the 2011 cencus would see a significant reduction in catholics. How ridiculous that turned out to be.

Sorry if I offended you Father.

mahoganygas

This is the big problem I have with a la carte Catholicism.

Irish people who believe there is 'something' up there but don't believe transubstantiation or homosexuality as a sin often label themselves as "shur, I'm still a catholic though".

I could believe that Jesus was a holy man in Jerusalem, that the Old testament teaches us moral fables from the time of Abraham and that there is definitely a God up there. But I'm not too keen on the Pope's in infallibility and I'm skeptical about some of the Vatican's teachings.
Yes, you could describe me as a Catholic. But you could also describe me as Jewish or Muslim too.

Where does Catholicism begin or end? When do you stop being a Catholic and start being a Protestant? Or a Jew? Or atheist?


My favorite part about this whole scam is that the Catholic church make it nice and simple for us. They don't need to clarify which teachings are mandatory to be a Catholic. There are no red line issues. There are no optional teachings you don't have to believe but can still remain in the club. It's much easier than that.
If a man in a dress poured water on your head when you were so small you couldn't speak, walk or object.....then you are a Catholic for life. No need to worry your little head about it ever again.


*Please tick "no religion" on April 24th. It matters.*

beach_walker

VinLieger wrote: »

Because I was baptised unwillingly into a religion I do not believe in and they still claim I am part of.

I do put down no religion and have in every census I have had a choice in the matter on but it still does not remove the fact that the catholic church an institution I have severe problems with still consider me a lifetime member.

I'm just gonna shrug my shoulders at this point. The central belief of the sacrament of baptisim isn't going to be changed. That's that really. I just waded in here to clarify some of what I see as common misconceptions re that.

Incidentally, are ye aware of the Mormon practice of baptising the dead? It's fascinating really but essentially as part of their missionary work, an individual can take it on themselves to baptise the dead into the Mormon faith. I met a couple doing such a while back, they were trawling through death notices from long ago in small towns in a rural area of the UK. I obviously don't believe or agree with them, hell they could have done it to me without me knowing :pac: , so I don't care. Would such an act if done to you anger you?

Also they do record the year over year baptism numbers so no there isn't a repository of names but theres is a number recorded in each country every year that is announced as a global number http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-statistics-report-increase-baptized-catholics-worldwide

I didn't know that, thank you for the link.

Boom_Bap

I had a priest try to drown me when I was an infant. Thankfully he was too cheap to provide enough water and my wailing and wriggling was enough to evade the attack. The only scar I was left with was being branded a Catholic but got a cool piece of paper to prove it.

wnolan1992

foggy_lad wrote: »

once you are baptised you are a catholic till you die!

In the eyes of the Church. Which doesn't mean that much if you choose not to be a member of that Church.


IMO, it's a completely personal thing. If you feel you're Catholic, you're Catholic. If you don't, you don't.

Example, I no longer believe that there's a God (borderline atheist-agnostic depending on the day). Therefore, regardless of whether I was baptised or not, I'm no longer a Catholic in my own mind, which is all that matters. So I'll be selecting "No Religion" on the form.

meeeeh

Whatever people believe themselves to be. I don't know why there is always someone who is better 'informed' telling people what to do. People should thick whatever they feel like it.

And yes all the sacraments my parents sent me too do had feck all influence on my beliefs. I considered myself atheist while I was doing confirmation and nothing changed. We got a day out if it and a few presents.