Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

maudgonner · 30-03-2016 12:23AM

doireannod wrote: »

If teachers get their pay rise/pay restored both the Luas drivers and the teachers will be out earning the doctors. And people wonder why there aren't any Irish faces looking back at them in Irish hospitals.

Pfffttt doctors! Sure it's not like it takes much skill or training to be a doctor. And the hours are great. And they're always swanning off on holidays and that.

Oh no, wait...

Inspector Coptoor · 30-03-2016 12:26AM

maudgonner wrote: »

Well it sounds like you want a race to the top, not a race to the bottom. If teachers' salaries go up, so should nurses, and doctors and guards, and firemen etc etc.

But of course someone has to pay for it, so taxes skyrocket. And people in the private sector what? Have to lump it? Or get their own raises. Which means that teachers' wages are below the median again...

Why shouldn't teachers settle for the median? Do you think your job is so much harder than the average? A few people on here have mentioned that others should try teaching for a day to see how hard it is. Maybe teachers should try other jobs for a day, get the opposite perspective.

after the years of austerity budgets, the imposition of USC, pension levies and the maintenance of an incredibly low standard rate cut off point, I would
Certainly think all the people you mentioned should get their pay restored.

You know that public sector workers are tax payers too?
And that the goods and services we purchase help keep the country going?

It grinds my gears when people try to make it a private vs public sector, them or us type argument.

Let me be very clear.
I am Not asking for more money. I'd take it if it was given but I'm not after more.
I am happy with my job and with my rate of remuneration.
I am not happy that my fellow teachers are being paid less to do the same job.

doireannod · 30-03-2016 12:27AM

maudgonner wrote: »

Pfffttt doctors! Sure it's not like it takes much skill or training to be a doctor. And the hours are great. And they're always swanning off on holidays and that.

Oh no, wait...

lol! I love my job and I'm happy enough with my pay. Which is why I raise my eyebrow when I see those who are indignant about starting at 30k

thomasdylan · 30-03-2016 12:29AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

No.
Doctors should be on a lot more than they are currently.
I think doctors should start on €50k.
They do have huge earning Potential in their later careers, something teachers don't have unless they become a HM of a very large school

That's absolute madness, doctors starting out shouldn't be on 50K. There's lots of issues for new doctors, hours worked, getting paid for OT without having to fight for it, but doctors just starting out shouldn't be on 50k, just have them work reasonable hours, no 24 hour shifts, with exam leave and better training. Regs and SpRs should be on higher pay given the responsibility that goes with the job though. Where I've worked the big big issues in medicine weren't related as much to base pay but were more not getting paid for OT, crap training, crap hours and HR being as awkward as possible.

The earning potential is good of course, but with each pay rise comes increased responsibility and you have to pass exams at SHO, Reg stage, work 60 hours a week for years, move around the country and do research in your own time, etc.. I think the earning potential is justified, being a doctor isn't the same job year after year.

The real issue in teaching seems to be part-time hours for teachers and taking years to get any job security. If teachers go on strike primarily over pay (and I imagine they'd threaten strike at the least as they've done that fairly frequently in the past) it stinks of permanant teachers looking after themselves and forgetting about their younger colleagues (again). The focus should surely be on getting younger teachers job security quicker, and I'd feel a whole lot more sympathy if that was the case.

doireannod · 30-03-2016 12:30AM

thomasdylan wrote: »

That's absolute madness, doctors starting out shouldn't be on 50K. There's lots of issues for new doctors, hours worked, getting paid for OT without having to fight for it, but doctors just starting out shouldn't be on 50k, just have them work reasonable hours, no 24 hour shifts, with exam leave and better training. Regs and SpRs should be on higher pay given the responsibility that goes with the job though. Where I've worked the big big issues in medicine weren't related as much to base pay but were more not getting paid for OT, crap training, crap hours and HR being as awkward as possible.

The earning potential is good of course, but with each pay rise comes increased responsibility and you have to pass exams at SHO, Reg stage, work 60 hours a week for years, move around the country and do research in your own time, etc.. I think the earning potential is justified, being a doctor isn't the same job year after year.

The real issue in teaching seems to be part-time hours for teachers and taking years to get any job security. If teachers go on strike primarily over pay (and I imagine they'd threaten strike at the least as they've done that fairly frequently in the past) it stinks of permanant teachers looking after themselves and forgetting about their younger colleagues (again). The focus should surely be on getting younger teachers job security quicker, and I'd feel a whole lot more sympathy if that was the case.

I agree 50k to start is too high!

maudgonner · 30-03-2016 12:34AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

after the years of austerity budgets, the imposition of USC, pension levies and the maintenance of an incredibly low standard rate cut off point, I would
Certainly think all the people you mentioned should get their pay restored.

You know that public sector workers are tax payers too?
And that the goods and services we purchase help keep the country going?

It grinds my gears when people try to make it a private vs public sector, them or us type argument.

Let me be very clear.
I am Not asking for more money. I'd take it if it was given but I'm not after more.
I am happy with my job and with my rate of remuneration.
I am not happy that my fellow teachers are being paid less to do the same job.

I'm very aware that public sector workers pay tax. It doesn't change what I've said.

I too think it's ridiculous that teachers get different wages depending on when they qualify. Why not average it out? I've already said I think 31k is a fair starting salary and given my reasons why. You think 38k is reasonable. Who not meet in the middle and make the appropriate adjustments across the payscale to fund it? Instead of asking other taxpayers to fund it?

legocrazy505 · 30-03-2016 12:47AM

maudgonner wrote: »

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

after the years of austerity budgets, the imposition of USC, pension levies and the maintenance of an incredibly low standard rate cut off point, I would
Certainly think all the people you mentioned should get their pay restored.

You know that public sector workers are tax payers too?
And that the goods and services we purchase help keep the country going?

It grinds my gears when people try to make it a private vs public sector, them or us type argument.

Let me be very clear.
I am Not asking for more money. I'd take it if it was given but I'm not after more.
I am happy with my job and with my rate of remuneration.
I am not happy that my fellow teachers are being paid less to do the same job.

I'm very aware that public sector workers pay tax. It doesn't change what I've said.

I too think it's ridiculous that teachers get different wages depending on when they qualify. Why not average it out? I've already said I think 31k is a fair starting salary and given my reasons why. You think 38k is reasonable. Who not meet in the middle and make the appropriate adjustments across the payscale to fund it? Instead of asking other taxpayers to fund it?

So you want American capitalism then and a private public sector? Because that's the slope you go down when you pull the whole "doesn't benefit me so why should I pay for it in my taxes".

KatW4 · 30-03-2016 12:49AM

I'd love if us younger teachers were given more of a chance to become permanent. But it's hard to even get on a panel, especially when schools hire retired teachers to do subbing. That gives us less opportunity to earn and then it takes longer to get onto a panel. It won't change any time soon either.

maudgonner · 30-03-2016 12:53AM

legocrazy505 wrote: »

So you want American capitalism then and a private public sector? Because that's the slope you go down when you pull the whole "doesn't benefit me so why should I pay for it in my taxes".

How did you get that from my post? Quite a leap!

thomasdylan · 30-03-2016 01:02AM

KatW4 wrote: »

I'd love if us younger teachers were given more of a chance to become permanent. But it's hard to even get on a panel, especially when schools hire retired teachers to do subbing. That gives us less opportunity to earn and then it takes longer to get onto a panel. It won't change any time soon either.

It's a crazy situation. The concerning thing is that I think permanant teachers will forget about the younger ones if they're offered a pay rise themsleves.

Dinny Byrne has Angina · 30-03-2016 01:11AM

Doctors.

I think they are paid fairly by Irish standards.

I have a friend in his second year of a training programme graduated three years ago) earning about €50k.

Like, the guy works from 8am-6pm in an intense job, sometimes until 7pm, but I don't think that's unreasonably crazy for a post where you're less than three years after graduation.

Sometimes, I think people pay too much attention to pay scales in other countries. My doctor friends are always depressed about their pay scales relative to their international colleagues.

But you must factor-in quality of life and local purchasing-power. And believe it or not, taxes are very favorable in Ireland for people on less than €70k.

Life ain't cheap in Australia and Canada, and although the hours are beneficial, the kinds of jobs available are frequently lower-skilled.

I accept there are lifestyle advantages , but I think the salary issue is sometimes exaggerated, especially when it comes to doctors.

Unfortunately, it's not popular to challenge workers like these. There is an enormous sense of entitlement to higher salaries.

thomasdylan · 30-03-2016 01:28AM

Dinny Byrne has Angina wrote: »

Doctors.

I think they are paid fairly by Irish standards.

I have a friend in his second year of a training programme graduated three years ago) earning about €50k.

Like, the guy works from 8am-6pm in an intense job, sometimes until 7pm, but I don't think that's unreasonably crazy for a post where you're less than three years after graduation.

Sometimes, I think people pay too much attention to pay scales in other countries. My doctor friends are always depressed about their pay scales relative to their international colleagues.

But you must factor-in quality of life and local purchasing-power. And believe it or not, taxes are very favorable in Ireland for people on less than €70k.

Life ain't cheap in Australia and Canada, and although the hours are beneficial, the kinds of jobs available are frequently lower-skilled.

I accept there are lifestyle advantages , but I think the salary issue is sometimes exaggerated, especially when it comes to doctors.

Unfortunately, it's not popular to challenge workers like these. There is an enormous sense of entitlement to higher salaries.

I've worked in Ireland and abroad and the big appeal of working outside Ireland is that the training path is better and lifestyle (hours, stress, etc.) is far better.
To be fair to us, there's no real complaints from the union about pay, the big issues raised are with working hours and not getting paid OT. There's been one day of doctors strikes in the past 25 years and that was protesting 24, 36, 48 hour shifts (and doctors still covered ED, call, etc.)

uck51js9zml2yt · 30-03-2016 01:32AM

KatW4 wrote: »

I'd love if us younger teachers were given more of a chance to become permanent. But it's hard to even get on a panel, especially when schools hire retired teachers to do subbing. That gives us less opportunity to earn and then it takes longer to get onto a panel. It won't change any time soon either.

I was talking to my principal, I'm on the BOM. She can't get sub's when she needs them, they're just not available which results in her covering classes herself.

30-03-2016 01:55AM

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Hospital pharmacists.
Their starting wage is 500 quid more than pharmacy technician starting off, for a job that entails a lot more work and responsibility than a technician

In fairness, hospital pharmacists in Ireland do **** all. Could replace them with anybody who know how to label.

Shelga · 30-03-2016 03:29AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't new teachers on lower pay because their unions sold them down the river back in 2010 to protect the existing members?

Isn't this two-tier system in place because the public sector is not subject to the same redundancies and universal cuts as the private sector?

I just don't understand why the teachers are blaming the government for everything- why can't they accept some of the responsibility for the way things are now. Surely if everyone had agreed to a 5% pay cut back in the day, new teachers feeling marginalised wouldn't be an issue.

I feel really sorry for new teachers- because it sounds impossible to get permanent hours, not because of a starting salary of 31k, which sounds pretty reasonable.

KatW4 · 30-03-2016 07:48AM

Ryleigh Gigantic Barbecue wrote:

I was talking to my principal, I'm on the BOM. She can't get sub's when she needs them, they're just not available which results in her covering classes herself.

Yeah that happened a lot this year because with the change in the course from 3 years to 4 years, no new teachers came out of the colleges this year. It'll be a different story next year when there will be an extra influx of newly trained teachers.

Mardy Bum · 30-03-2016 08:14AM

doireannod wrote: »

If teachers get their pay rise/pay restored both the Luas drivers and the teachers will be out earning the doctors. And people wonder why there aren so few Irish faces looking back at them in Irish hospitals.

A doctor's base salary is 30000, in reality the vast majority earn more than 40000 when allowances are added on.

Inspector Coptoor · 30-03-2016 08:23AM

Shelga wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't new teachers on lower pay because their unions sold them down the river back in 2010 to protect the existing members?

Isn't this two-tier system in place because the public sector is not subject to the same redundancies and universal cuts as the private sector?

I just don't understand why the teachers are blaming the government for everything- why can't they accept some of the responsibility for the way things are now. Surely if everyone had agreed to a 5% pay cut back in the day, new teachers feeling marginalised wouldn't be an issue.

I feel really sorry for new teachers- because it sounds impossible to get permanent hours, not because of a starting salary of 31k, which sounds pretty reasonable.

In what was a very retrograde step back n 2010, yes, unions did vote to pull the ladder up behind new entrants.
I voted against it.

If you knew how much our pay & conditions have been eroded over the last 6 years you wouldn't be saying "sure if everyone took a 5% cut wouldn't it be grand.

USC - 7% cut reduced now to 5.5%
Pension levy - 7.5% now meaning teachers will pay way more into their pension then they will ever get out
2% cut with removal of S&S payments & imposition of 47 hours Supervidiin & substitution for nothing
33 croke park hours which constitutes 1.5 weeks extra work per year which can be equated to a 3.9% cut.
Increment freezes.
The list goes on.

medicine12345 · 30-03-2016 08:31AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A doctor's base salary is 30000, in reality the vast majority earn more than 40000 when allowances are added on.

what allowances are these? the living out allowance etc aren't paid anymore?

I really don't see the logic in paying teachers and doctors the same salary. One job obviously entails far more responsibility, training and hours with far less holidays than the other. Why not just pay everybody the same salary in that case, irregardless of the work people do.

doc_17 · 30-03-2016 08:35AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

In what was a very retrograde step back n 2010, yes, unions did vote to pull the ladder up behind new entrants.
I voted against it.

It's a myth that teachers voted to have two different scales in 2010. The cuts to salary scales were imposed by the troika and FF government in the MOU. At no point did a teacher/nurse/guard etc have a choice to vote to introduce this new scale or reject it.

intellectual dosser · 30-03-2016 08:45AM

doc_17 wrote: »

It's a myth that teachers voted to have two different scales in 2010. The cuts to salary scales were imposed by the troika and FF government in the MOU. At no point did a teacher/nurse/guard etc have a choice to vote to introduce this new scale or reject it.

Maybe you could clarify this a bit further, because most of the country believes teachers sold each other out.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/youngest-teachers-to-lose-most-in-pay-vote-251969.html

A table drawn up by the Department of Education shows that total earnings between 2014 and 2020 would be €47,065 less for an ASTI -member new entrant to the profession in 2012 than for someone in the Teachers’ Union of Ireland with the same experience.
The TUI narrowly accepted the deal and so its members are entitled to a slightly higher salary scale if they started teaching since 2011, and have had increments paid for this year in advance of a series of increment delays still to kick in under the deal accepted by all public service unions except the ASTI.

doireannod · 30-03-2016 09:07AM

Dinny Byrne has Angina wrote: »

Doctors.

I think they are paid fairly by Irish standards.

I have a friend in his second year of a training programme graduated three years ago) earning about €50k.

Like, the guy works from 8am-6pm in an intense job, sometimes until 7pm, but I don't think that's unreasonably crazy for a post where you're less than three years after graduation.

Sometimes, I think people pay too much attention to pay scales in other countries. My doctor friends are always depressed about their pay scales relative to their international colleagues.

But you must factor-in quality of life and local purchasing-power. And believe it or not, taxes are very favorable in Ireland for people on less than €70k.

Life ain't cheap in Australia and Canada, and although the hours are beneficial, the kinds of jobs available are frequently lower-skilled.

I accept there are lifestyle advantages , but I think the salary issue is sometimes exaggerated, especially when it comes to doctors.

Unfortunately, it's not popular to challenge workers like these. There is an enormous sense of entitlement to higher salaries.

What speciality is your friend training in? I don't know of any speciality in which you work from 8-6 or 8-7. And 50k at year 2? That's not the trajectory of the NCHD payscale, I assure you. I don't think your friend is being truthful about how much he's earning.

Speaking for myself, I don't feel entitled to higher pay. I just don't think teachers should be seeking to out earn doctors when the intensity and responsibility of the jobs are clearly very different.

doireannod · 30-03-2016 09:11AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A doctor's base salary is 30000, in reality the vast majority earn more than 40000 when allowances are added on.

Allowances? What allowances? And 10k per annum's worth?!!! Please point me in the direction of these allowances.

doc_17 · 30-03-2016 09:55AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Maybe you could clarify this a bit further, because most of the country believes teachers sold each other out.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/youngest-teachers-to-lose-most-in-pay-vote-251969.html

The article you have linked to is from 2013 which was the time of voting for the HRA. The new entrants had their pay cut in 2011 by the government/troika without any consultation.

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/letter/finance/2010/3.pdf

Icaras · 30-03-2016 10:05AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

33 croke park hours which constitutes 1.5 weeks extra work per year which can be equated to a 3.9% cut.
Increment freezes.

Is this correct? 31k starting salary for a 22hr working week?

Mardy Bum · 30-03-2016 10:59AM

medicine12345 wrote: »

what allowances are these? the living out allowance etc aren't paid anymore?

I really don't see the logic in paying teachers and doctors the same salary. One job obviously entails far more responsibility, training and hours with far less holidays than the other. Why not just pay everybody the same salary in that case, irregardless of the work people do.

Teaching takes at least 5 years now. Indeed it takes some people 6.
In terms of responsibility obviously life and death are more important but learning how to read and write are also pretty vital skills which make a huge difference to someone's life.
Full qualified teachers were and are not paid for their training like trainee doctors either.

Everybody likes to put a cost on education but it is clear very few know the value of a good teacher.

medicine12345 · 30-03-2016 11:18AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Teaching takes at least 5 years now. Indeed it takes some people 6.
In terms of responsibility obviously life and death are more important but learning how to read and write are also pretty vital skills which make a huge difference to someone's life.

Everybody likes to put a cost on education but it is clear very few know the value of a good teacher.

Half the medical students currently training are postgrads with engineering, law, pharmacy degrees etc.

I would actually love to see the breakdown of what a teacher gets paid per hour compared to a doctor. When you think about how many less hours per year they work, they must get 2 or 3 times what the doctor gets per hour worked.

Little CuChulainn · 30-03-2016 11:30AM

cena wrote: »

I never said I didn't respect a teachers job

I never said you didn't. I said you didn't value the work they do outside the classroom.

30-03-2016 11:31AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Pension levy - 7.5% now meaning teachers will pay way more into their pension then they will ever get out

Sorry can you explain the figures behind this one? My calculator disagrees.

maudgonner · 30-03-2016 11:40AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If you knew how much our pay & conditions have been eroded over the last 6 years you wouldn't be saying "sure if everyone took a 5% cut wouldn't it be grand.

USC - 7% cut reduced now to 5.5%
Pension levy - 7.5% now meaning teachers will pay way more into their pension then they will ever get out
2% cut with removal of S&S payments & imposition of 47 hours Supervidiin & substitution for nothing
33 croke park hours which constitutes 1.5 weeks extra work per year which can be equated to a 3.9% cut.
Increment freezes.
The list goes on.

I'm sorry Inspector, but that list of cuts isn't going to gain you much sympathy from the private sector.
USC is not only paid by teachers - at least that's what my tax returns tell me.
Pension levy - do you have any idea how lucky you are do have a public sector pension? And like Sergio said, I'd like to see how you're paying more into it than you will ever get out? It seems a strange statement.
Extra hours - seriously? Do you want to argue that your hours are onerous? It would take a huge addition of hours to bring you up to the standard working hours/weeks per year that most of us do. It's never going to come close.
Increment freezes - not at all unusual in the private sector. Many people suffered paycuts or lost their jobs entirely.

None of those in any way justify the 38k starting salary you think should be standard, IMO.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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