Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

steddyeddy

The Luas driver's debate seems to bring up comparisons between the training involved and job difficulty and pay in the jobs in my title and the pay of Luas drivers.

I'm just wondering is there any job type that you think is overpaid or underpaid? I think the jobs in my title should be paid well as long as they're good at their job. I think carers and nurses should be paid more and I think hospital biochemists (the ones who test blood) should be paid a hell of a lot more (you can guarantee a strike will be in the works). Anyone else deserving of a pay rise?

purplecow1977

It's difficult to judge at times. From the outside looking in, it's very easy to have a perception of something but that may not be accurate. To me, it appears that the Luas workers are looking for a bit too much - but then again, when negotiating, it's wise to start high and come to a natural compromise mid way. I don't think teachers need a payrise, but I do think that their post 2012 graduates should receive equal pay for equal work, and if all the cuts to resources and erosion of working conditions were restored, I'd be happy enough.

Redser87

Definitely think FEMPI should be revoked to give equality of pay for post 2012 entrants.
Nurses don't get paid close to enough IMO. I also think that new Guards should be on much more than their starting salary.

Most doctors are underpaid, especially in relation to the years and years of training and the appalling conditions they endure with the responsibility of peoples lives at stake. People forget that most doctors aren't consultants in private practice.

I know nothing about biochemists, guards or nurses pay, but nurses generally have great public support. Teachers seem well paid but contract work makes their jobs pretty insecure.

KomradeBishop

The place where there has been the most massive wage inflation, far beyond any other role, is in executive compensation.

Push up the wages of executives in one industry, it creates an upward push in executive wages elsewhere as well - it's something that really needs to be tackled, due to the perverse/corrupting incentives undue compensation like this can create.

Cue the "don't be criticising the high-income or wealthy!" comments.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Most doctors are underpaid, especially in relation to the years and years of training and the appalling conditions they endure with the responsibility of peoples lives at stake. People forget that most doctors aren't consultants in private practice.

I know nothing about biochemists, guards or nurses pay, but nurses generally have great public support. Teachers seem well paid but contract work makes their jobs pretty insecure.

I'm definitely not saying doctors are paid adequately. I think they should be paid a lot more and have more humane working hours put in place.

Tzardine

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

purplecow1977

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

As always with these kind of things, do you have a link to support this?

I also meant to add that even though it SEEMS the luas workers are looking for too much of an increase, I support employees' right to protect and improve their working conditions, and to engage in industrial action if needed.

spurious

A first year nurse, just qualified, starts off on a rate that is less than the cleaner on her ward.

Teachers in theory have an OK rate of pay, the problem is very few people manage to get jobs made up of full hours, so large numbers of them are only earning a fraction of it.

Tzardine

purplecow1977 wrote: »

As always with these kind of things, do you have a link to support this?

I also meant to add that even though it SEEMS the luas workers are looking for too much of an increase, I support employees' right to protect and improve their working conditions, and to engage in industrial action if needed.

As somebody that supervises them I can assure you its true. (they make more than me). . I will find something and edit this post later with it. On phone now.

MIKEKC

Redser87 wrote: »

Definitely think FEMPI should be revoked to give equality of pay for post 2012 entrants.
Nurses don't get paid close to enough IMO. I also think that new Guards should be on much more than their starting salary.

You say that new guards should be on much more than their starting salary, yet you don't say how much they are paid. Anyone joining guards know the salary and if unhappy shouldn't join. Also all guards work shift so this must be taken into account. Basic salary in this job means nothing.

stefanovich

MIKEKC wrote: »

You say that new guards should be on much more than their starting salary, yet you don't say how much they are paid. Anyone joining guards know the salary and if unhappy shouldn't join. Also all guards work shift so this must be taken into account. Basic salary in this job means nothing.

Realistically what kind of wage are they on? I would like to think they were starting on 40,000 or so rising to 80,000 with experience. I guess it is way less.

KatW4

spurious wrote:

Teachers in theory have an OK rate of pay, the problem is very few people manage to get jobs made up of full hours, so large numbers of them are only earning a fraction of it.

I'm a teacher (primary) and I agree. I'm a sub so I don't have a permanent job and God knows when I will. I dont get paid over the summer either. I don't think I could support a family on my wages. The cuts in schools means I spend a good amount of my wages on resources in the classroom as well.

But I think some jobs deserve a pay rise, especially nurses. My mum has worked with adults with disabilities for nearly 20 years and her wages are lower than mine and I've only been working as a teacher for 4 years. Her job is way more demanding. People like her definitely deserve a pay rise too.

Roger Hassenforder

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

I doubt it; They're probably contractors

Clonmel1000

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

Where? And how do I apply? Please back this up.

Arkady

Ireland is not competitive, average pay rates across all jobs, in all sectors, are much too high. Wealthy people will take their business and support of the mainstream political parties elsewhere, unless Irish workers cop on and responsibly pay the taxes/levies/charges and take less wages, instead of threatening to tax the wealthy in Ireland.

stefanovich

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

Where? And how do I apply? Please back this up.

800 before or after tax. If it is before tax then it's not huge.

Redser87

New Gardaí start at just over 23,000. Granted this does not include overtime etc but it is still very low for a job that carries a lot of risk and anti social hours.http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=12252

Arkady

Redser87 wrote: »

New Gardaí start at just over 23,000. Granted this does not include overtime etc but it is still very low for a job that carries a lot of risk and anti social hours.http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=12252

A lot more than many other european police forces. They should count themselves lucky to have a job.
Ireland has to remain competitive.

quadrifoglio verde

Hospital pharmacists.
Their starting wage is 500 quid more than pharmacy technician starting off, for a job that entails a lot more work and responsibility than a technician

myshirt

I once had this debate with a few friends during a Manchester United match. A robust debate which nearly came to blows.

Wayne Rooney - the man is on £200k a week.
A nurse, £30k a year.
Where is the justice or sense in spending country economic wealth that way?

Very, very quickly I was corrected with a phrase that was to stick with me going forward and which I'd like you to remember also:
"Hang on here a second you prawn sandwich socialist.... when was the last time you seen a nurse belt a 30 yard absolute screamer into the top corner?
When she can do that, we'll pay her £200k a week, now f#ck off"

Rightwing

stefanovich wrote: »

Realistically what kind of wage are they on? I would like to think they were starting on 40,000 or so rising to 80,000 with experience. I guess it is way less.

Are you mad?

Very few careers start off that high.

Our public sector workers are extremely well looked after. Hence, the high demand for everything associated with the tag 'government job'.

myshirt

Redser87 wrote: »

New Gardaí start at just over 23,000. Granted this does not include overtime etc but it is still very low for a job that carries a lot of risk and anti social hours.http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=12252

They get the bulk of their rent sorted for them if they are in Dublin also. Always did.

The Moldy Gowl

myshirt wrote: »

I once had this debate with a few friends during a Manchester United match. A robust debate which nearly came to blows.

Wayne Rooney - the man is on £200k a week.
A nurse, £30k a year.
Where is the justice or sense in spending country economic wealth that way?

Very, very quickly I was corrected with a phrase that was to stick with me going forward and which I'd like you to remember also:
"Hang on here a second you prawn sandwich socialist.... when was the last time you seen a nurse belt a 30 yard absolute screamer into the top corner?
When she can do that, we'll pay her £200k a week, now f#ck off"

It's a stupid argument. That's why.

deseil

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

No there is not! Unless they are working some serious overtime!!

Yourmama

stefanovich wrote:

800 before or after tax. If it is before tax then it's not huge.

for unskilled job? yes, it is huge, even before tax.

Stealthfins

Tzardine wrote:

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

They are probably there years and an accumulation of increments over 15 years would bring them to the top of their scale.

Negative_G

myshirt wrote: »

I once had this debate with a few friends during a Manchester United match. A robust debate which nearly came to blows.

Wayne Rooney - the man is on £200k a week.
A nurse, £30k a year.
Where is the justice or sense in spending country economic wealth that way?

Very, very quickly I was corrected with a phrase that was to stick with me going forward and which I'd like you to remember also:
"Hang on here a second you prawn sandwich socialist.... when was the last time you seen a nurse belt a 30 yard absolute screamer into the top corner?
When she can do that, we'll pay her £200k a week, now f#ck off"

Your 'friends' are idiots.

Tzardine

Stealthfins wrote: »

They are probably there years and an accumulation of increments over 15 years would bring them to the top of their scale.

That is correct.

To answer somebody else, to 800 per week before tax, but I would consider a cleaner earning above 40k pretty high.

Olishi4

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm definitely not saying doctors are paid adequately. I think they should be paid a lot more and have more humane working hours put in place.

Agree with less working hours. If you are talking about Ireland, consultants in 2013 earned average of 170000, earning alot more than most other European countries. In Italy, 71000, Spain 65000 as a comparison.

In Ireland, we also rely heavily on trainee junior doctors for patient care who are still in the process of training yet some are already at specialist levels of pay. Nearly all work over time. One doctor earned 150000 in over time plus about 60000 basic in 2013. That year the tax payer paid 165 million in overtime to trainees.

Relying too much on trainees and paying time and a half and double time is a safety issue not just a cost to the tax payer. But in relation to the thread, overtime and how it is calculated and basic junior payment is higher than UK.

Excessive OT should be reduced with more fully trained consultants taking on the bulk of the work.

A lot of trainees are trained only to emigrate as soon as they are qualified which is a huge loss to the tax payer. Not sure if anything has been put in place in the last few years to ensure that once qualified, they should be required to spend some time in the state system when training is complete.

gazzer

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

I sincerely doubt that considering that Clerical Officers in the Public Service are on €420 euro a week before deductions

Tzardine

gazzer wrote: »

I sincerely doubt that considering that Clerical Officers in the Public Service are on €420 euro a week before deductions

I promise you its true. They are there 20 years and have a composite rate to include Sundays and bank holidays. It also includes compensation for deals done over the years to work days the place was previously closed.

Mad but true.

suicide_circus

All workers should be paid in the form of one bowl of thin watery gruel per day.

purplecow1977

If there are cleaners earning €800 in a week, there's definitely something wrong. Soccer stars earning 200k a week is a different ball game and not really comparing like with like. (I disagree completely with the amount of money they're paid, but it's a separate argument).

I think it's important to remember that if we want monkeys, then pay peanuts.

I'd be happy if nurses got paid more. They do a very important job with very limited resources.

sjb25

A national ambulance service Paramedic starts on €25447 per year and Luas drivers are giving out about low pay for the important job they do????

Olishi4

suicide_circus wrote: »

All workers should be paid in the form of one bowl of thin watery gruel per day.

"Please sir, I want some more"

Rightwing

purplecow1977 wrote: »

If there are cleaners earning €800 in a week, there's definitely something wrong. Soccer stars earning 200k a week is a different ball game and not really comparing like with like. (I disagree completely with the amount of money they're paid, but it's a separate argument).

I think it's important to remember that if we want monkeys, then pay peanuts.

I'd be happy if nurses got paid more. They do a very important job with very limited resources.

That's what B Ahern said, so we paid him upwards of €300K making him the 2nd highest paid leader in the world, but guess what we ended up with?

Clue: Begins with M

purplecow1977

Rightwing wrote: »

That's what B Ahern said, so we paid him upwards of €300K making him the 2nd highest paid leader in the world, but guess what we ended up with?

Clue: Begins with M

Haha I think within reasonable limits though. Who determines that though, I don't know. I don't agree that 300k for a leader of a country is reasonable salary. I think it's extortionate. I also think it's ridiculous when our leader earns more than the president of the USA, but who cares what I think?!

(Anyway, I don't think politicians follow any of the rules that apply to 'normal' employees!)

Permabear

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Permabear

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purplecow1977

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think that's reasonable either.

Regarding teachers, I agree with you, but performance related pay is a dangerous route to take. What one person deems to be a 'good' teacher may not be what another thinks.

newwan

Olishi4 wrote: »

Agree with less working hours. If you are talking about Ireland, consultants in 2013 earned average of 170000, earning alot more than most other European countries. In Italy, 71000, Spain 65000 as a comparison.
Are you sure you are comparing take home pay here or base salary?

In Ireland, we also rely heavily on trainee junior doctors for patient care who are still in the process of training yet some are already at specialist levels of pay. Nearly all work over time. One doctor earned 150000 in over time plus about 60000 basic in 2013. That year the tax payer paid 165 million in overtime to trainees.



Relying too much on trainees and paying time and a half and double time is a safety issue not just a cost to the tax payer. But in relation to the thread, overtime and how it is calculated and basic junior payment is higher than UK.

Only interns get paid time and a half now. Where are you getting your info from?

Excessive OT should be reduced with more fully trained consultants taking on the bulk of the work.
Consultants already have responsibility for 36 hours straight when on call. How much longer Would you like them to work for?

to ensure that once qualified, they should be required to spend some time in the state system when training is complete.

you mean an illegal measure to restrict free movement of the work force in the eu? Or would you be in favor of bringing something similiar in for dentists and vets who are far more expensive to train than docs?


What do you think?

Edward Hopper

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Don't totally disagree, I'm sure there are some god awful nurses, but performance and productivity in nursing is quite a hard one to judge or reward imho. The one who fills every form, or even knows every drug by heart isn't necessarily the best or most caring nurse. I struggle to see how you could grade performance in a supposed caring profession. Not saying it can't be done, just I can't think of a way to judge nurses merit and then pay them accordingly myself.

Specialun

Teachers get paid for a few months off..think they do ok

Godge

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

No there aren't.

"CLEANER - PPC
€365.31 €390.57 €397.64 €414.15 €433.97 €446.24¹ €465.35 ²"

That was 2014, there may have been a small increase this year.

I have heard of general operatives in pharmaceutical plants in Cork being paid 80k.

The Backwards Man

I was a doing a bit of lawn work for a rich family a few years ago. Come Friday evening I knocked on the door in the hope of getting paid, and the four year old son answered. 'Is your Mammy or Daddy in?' says I. 'No', says he, 'are you looking to get paid? I can pay you'. 'OK', says I, somewhat bemused. So the wee lad goes back into the house and reappears a few minutes later handing me a shiny one pence piece. 'What's the idea of this?' says I. 'Mammy says you aren't worth tuppence' says he, smiling.

Earthhorse

People don't get paid what they deserve, they get paid what they negotiate. I know plenty of people who earn far more than their worth and vice versa. I don't really know how to judge that on an occupational basis. Do I feel nurses are underpaid? In general, yes, but I also think there's some basic economics at play.

Godge

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Haha I think within reasonable limits though. Who determines that though, I don't know. I don't agree that 300k for a leader of a country is reasonable salary. I think it's extortionate. I also think it's ridiculous when our leader earns more than the president of the USA, but who cares what I think?!

(Anyway, I don't think politicians follow any of the rules that apply to 'normal' employees!)

You don't become President of the USA unless you are rich already so it isn't a good comparison.

noodler

Redser87 wrote: »

Definitely think FEMPI should be revoked to give equality of pay for post 2012 entrants.
Nurses don't get paid close to enough IMO. I also think that new Guards should be on much more than their starting salary.

Sadly I don't think FEMPI covered the new entrant reductions from 2011 onwards.

I'd worry the guy who started a fee years before me will always be on comparatively more money after the same amount of years worked.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

Where?.

I'm a soldier.

I'm in the public sector and not earning next or near that, I wish to transfer my service from soldier to office cleaner.

noodler

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

I think this is an absolute lie and/or rumour.

Postgrads I'm the civil service with degrees start off on less than 600 gross. Per week.