Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

Geuze · 13-03-2016 10:36PM

Arkady wrote: »

Ireland is not competitive, average pay rates across all jobs, in all sectors, are much too high.

Labour costs are not too high in Ireland.

They are 10th highest in the EU, at about the eurozone average:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6761066/3-30032015-AP-EN.pdf/7462a05e-7118-480e-a3f5-34e690c11545

The price level here is 20-25% above the EU average, due to high rental costs, high energy, legal, medical, insurance costs.

No wonder people feel they're getting bad value in Ireland.

tayto lover · 13-03-2016 10:37PM

Augeo wrote: »

What do you reckon is enough for a Garda in Year 1 ?
Rising to what after how many years?

They should be starting on about 40K rising to 65K after 20 years. Same for nurses. Very important if you want to attract the best people.

13-03-2016 10:38PM

myshirt wrote: »

They get the bulk of their rent sorted for them if they are in Dublin also. Always did.

Really?
Jesus, how did I miss out on this fabulous rent sorting in Dublin for the last 17 years??

And newly trained gardai are starting on 23000 a year, and because the government have stopped increments for the next 3 years, that's where they will stay.

Gardai & nurses are definitely poorly paid

tayto lover · 13-03-2016 10:38PM

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

Not necessarily true...

Nurses and medical staff typically have public support.

Luas drivers and teachers do not!

You can't feed yourself or raise a family on public support.

purplecow1977 · 13-03-2016 10:39PM

Stark wrote: »

Same issues of subjectivity exist in all professions. Not sure why teachers are a special case.

So how would you suggest rating a 'good' teacher?

13-03-2016 10:40PM

tayto lover wrote: »

They should be starting on about 40K rising to 65K after 20 years. Same for nurses. Very important if you want to attract the best people.

It's sort of clear that's not really the strategy with AGS.
They have people queuing up at the moment to get in.

Squall Leonhart · 13-03-2016 10:40PM

tayto lover wrote:

You can't feed yourself or raise a family on public support.

I never said you could, I was replying to your comment saying people get lambasted for striking for higher pay/better conditions.

maryishere · 13-03-2016 10:40PM

tayto lover wrote: »

And yet when people go on strike for better pay they are lambasted for doing so.

Thats because the people who usually go on strike are not underpaid. Many people work in jobs where they cannot go on strike, have no pension etc.

jongaz · 13-03-2016 10:41PM

Olishi4 wrote: »

Agree with less working hours. If you are talking about Ireland, consultants in 2013 earned average of 170000, earning alot more than most other European countries. In Italy, 71000, Spain 65000 as a comparison.

In Ireland, we also rely heavily on trainee junior doctors for patient care who are still in the process of training yet some are already at specialist levels of pay. Nearly all work over time. One doctor earned 150000 in over time plus about 60000 basic in 2013. That year the tax payer paid 165 million in overtime to trainees.

Relying too much on trainees and paying time and a half and double time is a safety issue not just a cost to the tax payer. But in relation to the thread, overtime and how it is calculated and basic junior payment is higher than UK.

Excessive OT should be reduced with more fully trained consultants taking on the bulk of the work.

A lot of trainees are trained only to emigrate as soon as they are qualified which is a huge loss to the tax payer. Not sure if anything has been put in place in the last few years to ensure that once qualified, they should be required to spend some time in the state system when training is complete.

Where is your source on this?

The new consultant entry contract is no where near the salary you mentioned above. Plus, that would be consultants working at consultant level for over a decade.

You mathematically cannot earn 150,000 euros overtime with basic salary of 60,000, unless, if, and a BIG IF, you are with a locum agency and you are working in the middle of nowhere.

It is also IF the f-ing hospitals across the country pays for all the hours/minutes you work. Which, trust me, is rare. This is the main reason, on top of all the bullying and 'just wing it' culture that exists in Irish hospitals that bright young minds tire and eventually opt to leave. Remember, trainee doctors are NOT student doctors, they are fully qualified, experienced doctors on their way to consultancy level. We have a life. We have families to feed. If we can move somewhere for a better life and pay, then we will move. So will you.

With those leaving, those left behind have more on their plate. Therefore more overtime. But hospital refuses to pay those overtime as they are 'unrostered'. So more people leave feeling unjustified. And the vicious cycle continues.

As a trainee doctor, I am very interested to know how you would back up the figures.

esforum · 13-03-2016 10:42PM

Arkady wrote: »

A lot more than many other european police forces. They should count themselves lucky to have a job.
Ireland has to remain competitive.

welcome to Ireland, in case you didnt realise before arrving, ts one of the most expensive countries to live in the world and your pay will reflect that.

FYI, new recruits in the Spanish national police start on 24 thousand, London met on 30 thousand, Denmark about 25 thousand, NOrway 40 thousand, PSNI 30 thousand, the average acordd the entire UK stanilises at approx 30 thousand.

So thats all of the UK including the PSNI and MET, Spain, Norway, Denmark and Norway all earning more.

If I uncover more I shall update my post

esforum · 13-03-2016 10:44PM

maryishere wrote: »

Thats because the people who usually go on strike are not underpaid. Many people work in jobs where they cannot go on strike, have no pension etc.

This issue has been raised many times. its your constitutional right to join a union, engage in collective bargaining and industrial action (unless you are a Garda or soldier). The majority of pension schemes are private.

If you have neither its entirely your fault, get them!

Geuze · 13-03-2016 10:47PM

Arkady wrote: »

Ireland has to remain competitive though. Salaries in Ireland are still much too high and non competitive with large parts of Europe.

This is totally incorrect.

2014 labour costs were just above the eurozone average.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6761066/3-30032015-AP-EN.pdf/7462a05e-7118-480e-a3f5-34e690c11545

Yet the price level is 25% above the EU average.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/80/ABABExchange_rates_and_price_level_indices_for_AIC%2C_2012-2014_%28EU-28%3D100%29XNEW.png

Geuze · 13-03-2016 10:49PM

Arkady wrote: »

Exactly, Ireland is not competive. In order for it to be so, and for the costs of goods and services to be so, the wages need to come down. Profit levels need to be sustained in order to make it worth an employers while to employ Irish people.

This is totally incorrect.

Yes, prices/costs must fall, but not wages, as they are not too high.

What needs to fall are the following:

commercial rents
legal fees
medical consultant fees
energy prices

Geuze · 13-03-2016 10:57PM

Arkady wrote: »

Exactly, Ireland is not competive. In order for it to be so, and for the costs of goods and services to be so, the wages need to come down. Profit levels need to be sustained in order to make it worth an employers while to employ Irish people.

Profit levels need to be sustained?

In 2012 trading profits were 61.5 billion out of total GDP of 175 bn.

That seems like plenty to me.

esforum · 13-03-2016 10:57PM

Augeo wrote: »

If there wasn't that risk for AGS they'd be on less than what they're on now, part of the job, no secret to anyone.

also what number of AGS are shot or stabbed per annum? Not many thankfully.

Whats the required number of Gardai assaulted and murdered in your opinion before they deserve a rise?

Augeo wrote: »

It's important to remember that nurses & teachers are far more qualified than AGS.

Actually they all obtain a Bachelor degree, level 7 I think on the education ladder. Teachers generally go on to do Phd aand the likes in fairness but then, a lot of Gardai go on to obtain law degrees, theres a few barristers that are Gardai.

Tzardine wrote: »

I don't know what else to tell you. I am their manager and. They get paid more than me. Although I am a new entrant, having only joined two years ago.

How did you get promoted before being out of probation?

Victor wrote: »

A newly sworn-in Garda (not a student garda) is on about €31,000 per year + shift allowances (for working evenings, nights, weekends and public holidays)

23 thousand and the allowances would be less than 7 thousand per annum in total. Probable not even 5 thousand.

Victor wrote: »

and overtime.

You cant use Overtime to bump up numbers and then claim that their annual income is great as a result, its overtime. The basic pay is what you get for 40 hours a week! Thats a complete strawman, not all Gardai can do never mind get overtime.

Victor wrote: »

Promotion and technical skills get higher pay and some additional allowances - detectives get 'walking around money'.

Detectives dont get walk around money and technical jobs dont get a red cent more pay, they get a set allowance if their job qualifies. Of course promotions mean more money. Doesnt the top man in your company earn more than his / her secretary?

Victor wrote: »

How to they achieve a bachelors degree in under 2 years?

They dont get 3 months off in the Summer, 2 weeks at Christmas, 2 weeks for easter,1 week for Halloween, dont have a rag week and put in more than 20 hours a week in college. The degree is awarded by an external college FYI

lostintransit2 · 13-03-2016 10:57PM

Olishi4 wrote: »

newwan wrote: »

"Lock doctors in" is a bit of an exaggeration to what I am saying. During training, doctors are paid. A couple more years working within the system that invested in them and being paid at specialist level will only add to their training and experience.

More fully trained doctors available equals less OT for specialists in general and less pressure on doctors in training therefore less OT, staff burn out and less tax payers money wasted on overtime. This does "increase staff", "decreases working hours" and stops the handover, pressure and responsibility of specialist tasks being placed on those who are not fully trained.

Just to clarify a point - "doctors in training" or junior doctors are actually fully qualified doctors. However, most are undertaking further training in a subspecialty. Whilst "training" they are predominantly providing a service and therefore are rightly paid. The majority of this training requires them to undertake courses, postgraduate qualifications and exams at their own expense, just like any other junior professional who is aiming for promotion (junior engineers, specialist nurses, junior accountants).

To clarify this further, if you present to an emergency department in Ireland or the UK, particularly at night or at the weekend, requiring emergency surgery, you will mostly likely be assessed by a trainee emergency doctor, operated on by a trainee surgeon and anaesthetised by a trainee anaesthetist. All of these doctors are fully qualified doctors providing a service well within their capabilities. They earn their salaries providing this public service.

When you suggest forcing trainees to stay in Ireland as "specialists" you are essentially saying all trainees should get a consultant post in Ireland once they finish their training. In fact, one of the reasons trainees leave is that there aren't enough consultant posts in Ireland and so many trainees spent 10-12 years working in the public service with no sign of a consultant post and then chose to leave. The difference nowadays is that many are choosing to leave earlier as they can see what is ahead of them in terms of working conditions.

If you want a 24/7 on site consultant delivered service then you will need many more consultants - as it is, in many Irish hospitals consultants still provide 72 hours continuous on call cover at weekends due to very small numbers available to cover each specialty.

RDM_83 again · 13-03-2016 10:59PM

esforum wrote: »

welcome to Ireland, in case you didnt realise before arrving, ts one of the most expensive countries to live in the world and your pay will reflect that.

FYI, new recruits in the Spanish national police start on 24 thousand, London met on 30 thousand, Denmark about 25 thousand, NOrway 40 thousand, PSNI 30 thousand, the average acordd the entire UK stanilises at approx 30 thousand.

So thats all of the UK including the PSNI and MET, Spain, Norway, Denmark and Norway all earning more.

If I uncover more I shall update my post

Ok apart from the Spanish one don't all those other places have either a much higher cost of living (I could go do a phd in Norway and it would be funded at 40,000 euro a year if I got a good grant), London is much more expensive than Dublin IMO too.
I do think start Garda aren't on great pay but I think thats because we now think of it as a job people go into with a 3rd level qualification where in the past it wasn't as common at all.

In relation to all the cries that these jobs we're talking about are poorly paid, what careers out there pay more for 1st year workers with no experience apart from the degree? Precious few as far I am aware.
Basically all entry level jobs are now badly paid.

Olishi4 · 13-03-2016 11:01PM

jongaz wrote: »

Where is your source on this?

The new consultant entry contract is no where near the salary you mentioned above. Plus, that would be consultants working at consultant level for over a decade.

You mathematically cannot earn 150,000 euros overtime with basic salary of 60,000, unless, if, and a BIG IF, you are with a locum agency and you are working in the middle of nowhere.

It is also IF the f-ing hospitals across the country pays for all the hours/minutes you work. Which, trust me, is rare. This is the main reason, on top of all the bullying and 'just wing it' culture that exists in Irish hospitals that bright young minds tire and eventually opt to leave. Remember, trainee doctors are NOT student doctors, they are fully qualified, experienced doctors on their way to consultancy level. We have a life. We have families to feed. If we can move somewhere for a better life and pay, then we will move. So will you.

With those leaving, those left behind have more on their plate. Therefore more overtime. But hospital refuses to pay those overtime as they are 'unrostered'. So more people leave feeling unjustified. And the vicious cycle continues.

As a trainee doctor, I am very interested to know how you would back up the figures.

Irishhealth.com

The 150000 OT figures was given "according to the HSE".

While they did say that this was an extreme case, it gives an example of how crazy the system is.

esforum · 13-03-2016 11:01PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Jesus that's pretty bad. I knew their pay was low but that's an insult.

Its actually even lower, if Victor quoted a link that wasnt 6 years old!

Geuze · 13-03-2016 11:02PM

2014 data

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/nie/nationalincomeandexpenditureannualresults2014/

Company profits = 51 bn

Self-employed profits = 8.5 bn

Agri/forestry/fishing profits = 2.7 bn

Total is about 62,000,000,000 = 62 bn in profits

Wages and salaries = 65 bn

Yet some people here are calling for wages to be cut??

spurious · 13-03-2016 11:03PM

Specialun wrote: »

Teachers get paid for a few months off..think they do ok

Only if they are full time, which a large minority, (or it could even almost be a majority now) are not.

Olishi4 · 13-03-2016 11:05PM

lostintransit2 wrote: »

Olishi4 wrote: »

Just to clarify a point - "doctors in training" or junior doctors are actually fully qualified doctors. However, most are undertaking further training in a subspecialty. Whilst "training" they are predominantly providing a service and therefore are rightly paid. The majority of this training requires them to undertake courses, postgraduate qualifications and exams at their own expense, just like any other junior professional who is aiming for promotion (junior engineers, specialist nurses, junior accountants).

To clarify this further, if you present to an emergency department in Ireland or the UK, particularly at night or at the weekend, requiring emergency surgery, you will mostly likely be assessed by a trainee emergency doctor, operated on by a trainee surgeon and anaesthetised by a trainee anaesthetist. All of these doctors are fully qualified doctors providing a service well within their capabilities. They earn their salaries providing this public service.

When you suggest forcing trainees to stay in Ireland as "specialists" you are essentially saying all trainees should get a consultant post in Ireland once they finish their training. In fact, one of the reasons trainees leave is that there aren't enough consultant posts in Ireland and so many trainees spent 10-12 years working in the public service with no sign of a consultant post and then chose to leave. The difference nowadays is that many are choosing to leave earlier as they can see what is ahead of them in terms of working conditions.

y.

Why are there not enough fully trained consultant posts if everyone is doing so much overtime?

Perhaps if it was more balanced it would help the situation.

lostintransit2 · 13-03-2016 11:10PM

The number of consultant posts in public hospitals is determined by management, not doctors.

There has to be a balance between enough consultants to cover elective and emergency work. If there are too many consultants for a small population, there is the risk of people becoming deskilled by not having a high enough caseload. However, this is certainly not a problem in many Irish hospitals, where an additional consultant colleague to share the workload would be welcome, or even one to fill the vacancy that has had no applicants.

lostintransit2 · 13-03-2016 11:12PM

The number of consultant posts in public hospitals is determined by management, not doctors.

There has to be a balance between enough consultants to cover elective and emergency work. If there are too many consultants for a small population, there is the risk of people becoming deskilled by not having a high enough caseload. However, this is certainly not a problem in many Irish hospitals, where an additional consultant colleague to share the workload would be welcome, or even one to fill the vacancy that has had no applicants.

There are some tasks which are more suited to a junior doctor than a consultant.

It is about having enough of both really. At the moment juniors do so much overtime as they are trying to provide 24/7 emergency cover as well as 5/7 elective work shared in some cases amongst just 5 or 6 doctors.

IRLConor · 13-03-2016 11:15PM

Victor wrote: »

A newly sworn-in Garda (not a student garda) is on about €31,000 per year

Or, put another way, about 50% more money than the equivalent soldier.

I don't know of a single entry-level public sector job that I would consider well paid. Also, having plenty of friends and family in the public sector has me convinced that the state is a pretty crappy employer too. Insane levels of bureaucracy, toleration of idleness and bullying.

Kristopherus · 13-03-2016 11:16PM

Tzardine wrote: »

There are public service office cleaners being paid €800 per week. Thats crazy in my mind.

Absolute rubbish.Their pay is around €600.00 at the max of the scale and it takes around 12 yrs to reach that.

esforum · 13-03-2016 11:17PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok apart from the Spanish one don't all those other places have either a much higher cost of living (I could go do a phd in Norway and it would be funded at 40,000 euro a year if I got a good grant), London is much more expensive than Dublin IMO too.

Yes and I understand that, Arkady apparantly doesnt but thats just basic pay. London and a good few other places have the same allowances as Gardai + accomodation or rent paid for them.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I do think start Garda aren't on great pay but I think thats because we now think of it as a job people go into with a 3rd level qualification where in the past it wasn't as common at all.

It was common when I joined 15 years ago, Its been common since college attendance became common, when you have 500 jobs and 15,000 applicants the minimum entry requirements are passed very quickly. In AGS, you have a college degree and work experience or you arent making it beyond interview. Theres also an entry exam do again, to get high enough to even make interview, you have to have shown some intelligence.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

In relation to all the cries that these jobs we're talking about are poorly paid, what careers out there pay more for 1st year workers with no experience apart from the degree? Precious few as far I am aware.

Plenty, a qualified electrician and plumber is on more for starters and lets be honest here, a first year Garda / nurse / Fireman is dealing with a lot more **** and personal risk that a first year graduate in business in their first job.

However, I get your point and yes generally speaking you start on crumbs and work up but by the same token lets remember that if a business graduate ****s up and gets fired, he looks for another job and continues on. If a Garda gets sacked, its game over, his degree is worth less than toilet paper.

Generally I am not a big fan of comparing what Joe earns compared to Mike, different industries carry different rates, different conditions and different requirements.

Doctors and nurses are terrible underpaid and overworked in this country though, hard jobs, hard hours, bad money. Gardai are underpaid but I wouldnt say terrible so.

Anita Blow · 13-03-2016 11:17PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm not sure if we can ever pay enough to medical graduates to compete with the USA, our healthcare system simply doesn't operate like that, those that advocate we do should look at the sheer costs involved in medical treatment there (But remember that American Doctor probably has 200 thousand debt when they graduate comparative to maybe 10-20k in Ireland) its just not the same system.

While it's not quite the same level as the US, you have to remember that these days a large proportion of our graduates are from the graduate-entry route. It currently stands at around 30% of graduates, and the aim is to increase that t 40% over the next 3-5 years and then progressively increase the percentage after that. These doctors are graduating with debts of ~95k, and a huge proportion are moving abroad just to be able to service that debt.

Olishi4 wrote: »

More fully trained doctors available equals less OT for specialists in general and less pressure on doctors in training therefore less OT, staff burn out and less tax payers money wasted on overtime. This does "increase staff", "decreases working hours" and stops the handover, pressure and responsibility of specialist tasks being placed on those who are not fully trained.

You increase staff numbers by making the health service an attractive place to work. The HSE faced an NCHD shortage of 500 posts last year which they couldn't fill even from foreign doctors because the working conditions are so notoriously poor in Ireland.

Olishi4 · 13-03-2016 11:19PM

lostintransit2 wrote: »

The number of consultant posts in public hospitals is determined by management, not doctors.

There has to be a balance between enough consultants to cover elective and emergency work. If there are too many consultants for a small population, there is the risk of people becoming deskilled by not having a high enough caseload. However, this is certainly not a problem in many Irish hospitals, where an additional consultant colleague to share the workload would be welcome, or even one to fill the vacancy that has had no applicants.

So additional fully trained consultants would be a benefit? And there are consultant vacancies unfilled lacking in applicants?

Surely consultants and management work together to balance and determine the needs for consultants positions?

rubadub · 13-03-2016 11:22PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Its clearly not near enough though.

how do you figure that? is there a huge shortage of people applying to be gardai?

Someone else said they have plenty, have you a link showing otherwise or why do you think it is so clear?

tayto lover wrote: »

They should be starting on about 40K rising to 65K after 20 years. Same for nurses.

40k would be far too much in my mind. I wonder what the wages are for other graduates starting out. Including people in jobs with danger involved.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

Comments