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Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

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    #92
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I'm honestly not sure if it would. While its easy to compare to the marriage referendum, I don't think they're that similar really. In the marriage referendum the sides were clear enough. On one side you had a marginalised group (LGB people), just about every single one of them probably voted yes. Then you had those that supported them, plus those who mightn't have cared much but who at the very least respected their right to marry. Combined with total media and political support, as well as just about any and every possible "celebrity" endorsement at home and abroad.

    On the other side you had a small few Catholic groups and "protect the family" types. They didn't gain much traction or have much popular support. They were fighting a losing battle from the start and I think everyone knew that. There was also a definite stigma attached to No votes, so you wouldn't really see big rallies or public events. If someone seemed to be really really passionate and emotional about gays not marrying, you'd think there's something wrong with them. Looking at it with a cold eye, there were no logical or even emotional reasons to prevent gay marriage passing.

    While the No vote definitely got more votes than their media presence suggested, it was still a bad enough defeat.

    An abortion referendum wouldn't be anywhere as clear cut. The waters are a lot muddier and it will be messy. While women may be the marginalised group in this case, there are definitely many women out there who'd oppose abortion. You couldn't count on them to vote one way as a whole. Combined with that, the pro-life groups have much more to work with than the anti gay marriage types. Emotional pleas about babies and murder will gain a lot more traction than emotional pleas about gays corrupting children did.

    There's a lot less stigma associated with pro-life rallies and protests. They can play the angle that they're giving a voice to the voiceless and innocent etc. Combined with that, politicians seem ambivalent at best about it. Where many threw their whole weight behind gay marriage, so far there aren't many saying much on abortion (aside from Clare Daly trying to walk over the constitution and introduce a bill last year providing for abortion).

    Personally I'm uneasy with the idea of abortions, but still reckon at the end of day the it should be the woman's choice. Like I've said, any referendum on this could get very close and messy.


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    #93
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    I'm only 31 and have the same opinion since I knew what abortion was. Being male and catholic are irrelevant to my opinion on it.

    My bad, thought you were older. Still 2 out of 3 aint bad.

    One last guess....Single?


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    #94
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Late to the thread. I would most definitely hope it passes. It's not our decision to make regarding a woman's body and it's the height of cruelty to legislate. I am male, but if this were a male issue, it wouldn't be a contentious issue. Such legislation wouldn't even exist.


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    #95
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    I'm very conflicted, 5 years ago I would have probably went along with the yes side but now I'm not so certain anymore. Deep deep, down I think there's something very wrong about it. I can't help that, it's a natural feeling that I have.

    But then what do you tell a girl who has been raped and is carrying her rapists child? It's a very emotive topic and sadly I think the debate on this matter will be extremely ugly.


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    #96
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    We don't allow people to kill unborn children except in the very extreme circumstance of the mothers life being in exceptional danger.

    I'd consider not killing babies as something that would but you very high on the "decent" list

    Are you in favour of 'killing babies' in the very extreme circumstance of the mother's life being in exceptional danger? Would you advocate killing a baby to save the life of the baby's mother?

    When you strip them down, the attitudes of anti-choice people are really weird and inconsistent.


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    #97
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    I see I'm much too late regarding the usual suspects
    Page 8 anyone?
    Ugh, imagine being stuck in a lift with some of these people
    (Shudders)
    I'm out .....(runs for her life....)


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    #98
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Itzy wrote: »
    Late to the thread. I would most definitely hope it passes. It's not our decision to make regarding a woman's body and it's the height of cruelty to legislate. I am male, but if this were a male issue, it wouldn't be a contentious issue. Such legislation wouldn't even exist.

    I am male too and I actually think only women should vote in an abortion referendum. Not going to happen but I think it would be correct.


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    #99
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I'm very conflicted, 5 years ago I would have probably went along with the yes side but now I'm not so certain anymore. Deep deep, down I think there's something very wrong about it. I can't help that, it's a natural feeling that I have.

    But then what do you tell a girl who has been raped and is carrying her rapists child? It's a very emotive topic and sadly I think the debate on this matter will be extremely ugly.

    What do you tell someone who's contraception has failed and just doesn't wants kids?


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    #100
    deseil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭deseil


    lazygal wrote: »
    You're confusing pro life with pro children and pro parents.

    Is it all not the same?


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    #101
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    smash wrote: »
    What do you tell someone who's contraception has failed and just doesn't wants kids?

    Personally, I'd tell them to act like an adult and deal with the.consequences of their actions. You know, like an adult.


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    #102
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    The problem with this debate is that those on some middle ground are not heard, what you get is too sides of the extreme shouting and insulting each other, the argument put forth by the pro choice crowd of "if you don't agree with it don't get one" is one of the dumbest statements around and shows a massive lack of understanding of the other side, Think of it logically, you are against abortion, you believe it is the murder of a baby, would you really think people can choose if they think it's the murder of a baby or not? Course you wouldn't not for something so serious.


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    #103
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    Personally, I'd tell them to act like an adult and deal with the.consequences of their actions. You know, like an adult.

    How is getting an abortion not dealing with the consequences?


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    #104
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    I am male too and I actually think only women should vote in an abortion referendum. Not going to happen but I think it would be correct.

    At the end of the day, why should anyone have authority of a woman's body? For anyone who has a Wife, Mother, Sister or Daughter, Imagine if they, in a given situation for one reason or another, required an abortion? Wouldn't we all like for them to make their own decision? Male or Female, Religious or Not, I don't think any of us have to right to deny anyone self autonomy, no matter what our opinions.


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    #105
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    Personally, I'd tell them to act like an adult and deal with the.consequences of their actions. You know, like an adult.

    That's not a very adult response. You might as well just give them the middle finger and walk off laughing.


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    #106
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'm barely holding onto my two born kids. My gay friends are making worrying noises about exercising their right to be parents.

    They want to be parents??? THE MONSTERS!!!

    Actually I've often genuinely wondered why people who claim to be 'pro-life' (they're anti-choice in reality, I mean technically I'm pro-life, if I wasn't I'd be dead, but I'm pro-choice when it comes to abortion) waste so much of their time trying to prevent women from having control over their reproductive systems.

    Would their time and efforts not be far better spent taking care of children who actually have been born but who are living in terrible poverty or have no parents at all. Seems like their morality grinds to a halt the very moment the unborn becomes born.


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    #107
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    I am male too and I actually think only women should vote in an abortion referendum. Not going to happen but I think it would be correct.

    The fetus is made by a male and female. And the fetus becomes male or female. So I think men should have a say in the matter too.


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    #108
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    lazygal wrote: »
    How is getting an abortion not dealing with the consequences?

    I think abortion is the exact opposite of dealing with the consequences. Personally I put more value on life, and would expect people to act like grown ups and get on with dealing with the situation that has happened. Actions have consequences, its as simple as that.

    And if we're starting with a basis of everyone has the right to do whatever they like with and to their bodies, then I think we're on a very slippery slope.


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    #109
    PressRun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭PressRun


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I'm very conflicted, 5 years ago I would have probably went along with the yes side but now I'm not so certain anymore. Deep deep, down I think there's something very wrong about it. I can't help that, it's a natural feeling that I have.

    But then what do you tell a girl who has been raped and is carrying her rapists child? It's a very emotive topic and sadly I think the debate on this matter will be extremely ugly.

    If you don't like abortion, then don't have one. I don't see what's so difficult about this concept. Nobody is going to be forced to have an abortion in the event that it became legal. It would simply mean that women who do need/want to procure one can do so safely in their own country.

    I also really don't like the rhetoric around abortion that women have to suffer some awful trauma in order to justify having an abortion, be it rape, FFA, or even just a moral crisis of some kind. It reeks of the mindset that abortion is only acceptable if the woman endures a punishment of some kind. Both the anti-choice and the pro-choice crowd are guilty of engaging in this kind of discourse.

    Sometimes women have abortions because they know it's the right thing to do for them and their situation, and they don't feel awful about it. Those women shouldn't be made to feel awful about it either. At the end of the day, it's their body, and strangers shouldn't be making decisions about other people's bodies for them.

    I don't think it's any coincidence either that the "pro-life" crowd go missing as soon as these children are born. They couldn't give a **** as soon as the child is outside the womb.


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    #110
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I think abortion is the exact opposite of dealing with the consequences. Personally I put more value on life, and would expect people to act like grown ups and get on with dealing with the situation that has happened. Actions have consequences, its as simple as that.

    And if we're starting with a basis of everyone has the right to do whatever they like with and to their bodies, then I think we're on a very slippery slope.

    But if you have an abortion that's surely dealing with the consequences. How is it not? If I didn't want to stay pregnant I'd have an abortion. That's dealing with the consequences.


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    #111
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I think it would pass but it will be a brutal campaign. Both sides of the extreme end will be venomous and are probably best off staying out of the debate if they want their side to win it.


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    My bad, thought you were older. Still 2 out of 3 aint bad.

    One last guess....Single?

    Wrong.
    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    I am male too and I actually think only women should vote in an abortion referendum. Not going to happen but I think it would be correct.

    Thankfully men and women have equal rights to vote. What sort of nonsense would it be only allowing sex to vote on something affecting the countries constitution. Imagine if was suggested only men should be allowed to vote on something, the world would explode.
    smash wrote: »
    What do you tell someone who's contraception has failed and just doesn't wants kids?


    Tough, if you don't want kids and would consider an abortion if you did get pregnant then either don't have sex or get sterilised. Such s disgusting act is never the answer.
    lazygal wrote: »
    But if you have an abortion that's surely dealing with the consequences. How is it not? If I didn't want to stay pregnant I'd have an abortion. That's dealing with the consequences.

    Dealing with it in the same way as shooting homeless people is dealing with the rise of homelessness in Ireland.


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    #113
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Problem i have with abortion is what term limit is set, i mean currently the limit in the UK is 24 weeks yet there have been cases of babies surviving at that stage and in fact even earlier. It's a tough issue whatever people on either side might say it's not black and white, i dread a referendum the ignorance and hate on both sides will prevent any real debate being had.


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    #114
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    lazygal wrote: »
    But if you have an abortion that's surely dealing with the consequences. How is it not? If I didn't want to stay pregnant I'd have an abortion. That's dealing with the consequences.

    Like I said, I personally put more value on life. No one should get to decide who lives or dies in my opinion.


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    #115
    Ice Maiden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Ice Maiden


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I think abortion is the exact opposite of dealing with the consequences. Personally I put more value on life, and would expect people to act like grown ups and get on with dealing with the situation that has happened. Actions have consequences, its as simple as that.
    What about rape or unviable foetus?


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    #116
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    A bit of recognition that the scope of the 8th goes beyond abortion would be great - it's in everything once you become pregnant in Ireland, ranging from how your unrelated medical conditions are managed to how miscarriages are managed, to overrule your informed consent in labour and childbirth and completely invalidate your choices, to posing issues in terms of the end of life choices that others make for you should the worst happen.

    It needs to be repealed now. Actual legislation, not another constitutional amendment, then needs to be put in place.

    But will that happen? After the general election, I really don't trust the Irish electorate as far as I could throw them. It will be an incredibly ugly campaign, and if a referendum to repeal the 8th loses then it will be shelved for another 30 years, while women continue to suffer.


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    #117
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    PressRun wrote: »
    If you don't like abortion, then don't have one. I don't see what's so difficult about this concept. Nobody is going to be forced to have an abortion in the event that it became legal. It would simply mean that women who do need/want to procure one can do so safely in their own country.

    I also really don't like the rhetoric around abortion that women have to suffer some awful trauma in order to justify having an abortion, be it rape, FFA, or even just a moral crisis of some kind. It reeks of the mindset that abortion is only acceptable if the woman endures a punishment of some kind. Both the anti-choice and the pro-choice crowd are guilty of engaging in this kind of discourse.

    Sometimes women have abortions because they know it's the right thing to do for them and their situation, and they don't feel awful about it. Those women shouldn't be made to feel awful about it either. At the end of the day, it's their body, and strangers shouldn't be making decisions about other people's bodies for them.

    I don't think it's any coincidence either that the "pro-life" crowd go missing as soon as these children are born. They couldn't give a **** as soon as the child is outside the womb.
    Sorry to be rude but your post is massively ignorant, if someone thinks abortion is the murder of a baby it's hardly reasonable for you to expect they will be ok with someone else having one because they don't feel it's murder. Abortion is not something you can look at and think " i don't agree but each to their own".


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    #118
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    Like I said, I personally put more value on life. No one should get to decide who lives or dies in my opinion.
    If I don't want to be pregnant I have the ability to access abortion. Other women don't. Is it fair to force any girl or woman to remain pregnant, possibly with long term health consequences, against her wishes just because she can't travel?


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    #119
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    What's going to happen is, the Iona Institute and Catholic Church will weight on any Referendum. Both apparently enjoy Charity status, with the added benefit of not paying much tax. Correct me if I'm wrong. With that in mind, they opinion should be given to them and not the other way around.

    The debate surrounding the Referendum sadly will get nasty and it's not something I'd debate with anyone. I look at my Wife and Sisters in law and think, what if they needed an abortion, but had to travel to the UK for one? It would piss me off to no end.


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    #120
    PressRun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭PressRun


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    Sorry to be rude but your post is massively ignorant, if someone thinks abortion is the murder of a baby it's hardly reasonable for you to expect they will be ok with someone else having one because they don't feel it's murder. Abortion is not something you can look at and think " i don't agree but each to their own".

    Except plenty of people do think about it like that. Plenty of people would take a stance where they wouldn't personally have an abortion but won't object to other people doing whatever is right for them.


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    #121
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    Ice Maiden wrote: »
    What about rape or unviable foetus?

    I was responding earlier to someones question about contraception failing.

    Your 2 scenarios are certainly a lot more complex, but I would agree with some what posters have said that it would be somewhat hypocritical to disagree with abortion in some cases but not others.

    So, in that respect, I guess I'm against abortion full stop.

    I guess its why this issue is so contentious, there is no easy answers and it is as far away from a black and white issue as you can get I feel.


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