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The Hazards of Belief

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Comments

  • #7262
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Hyperbolically, if one restricts their art to hacking at a lump of granite with a blunt instrument vs fine carving... Yeah, its idiotic to not make a judgement on the progress of any form of culture within society, art, literature, whatever. Saying that, things can also regress, a culture can promote and go on the wrong direction, see; Idiocracy. The issue with Islam is its standing still, its dead.
    I think you might need to rephrase a little. Can you say precisely how it's idiotic to not make a judgement on the progress of any form of culture within society, art, literature, whatever? I don't think anyone must judge a culture; people can go their whole lives not doing it and not be idiots. Are you actually trying to judge a culture by external references to society, art, literature, and 'whatever', in which case what are these things outside of a cultural context? If you're trying to judge the society, art, literature, and 'whatever' within a culture, what standard are you holding them against? Is it objective or subjective? Whatever your problems are with Islam, I don't think it can objectively be held to be standing still or dead; according to CNN it's the fastest growing religion in the world, with more converts than any other. Though of course we should note Islam is no more a culture than Christianity is.
    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    If your religion promotes inbreeding that results in a rise of genetic defects, in effect dysgenics, or a promotion of a lack of fitness, well then yeah, that does make you inferior, you are engaging in deliberate genetic sabotage.
    I'm not sure how many religions promote inbreeding, cultures that permit it (say 1st cousin degree?) seem pretty prevalent; the USA permits it in 18 States, Europe permits it in every single State. Yet Europe doesn't seem to be disadvantaged genetically; we seem to be holding our own in terms of society, art, literature, and 'whatever' according to you?
    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    No one is denying those things are beautiful in their own way. Im pointing out the restrictions, a restriction is not subjective. If you call a halt to your cultural and artistic development by religious decree that is a backward step, no matter how you dress it up.
    Nope, you clearly said that Western culture is superior, not unrestricted. Whether a culture limits expression (as Western culture did for centuries, and still does in some ways, try being a woman wearing a veil in France or Belgium) doesn't mean it follows that whatever is expressed is inferior; only that the expression necessarily follows a different path compared to places where expression is limited on other ways, or is even unlimited.
    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    I only hold that opinion when that culture and all it entails, is being imported to Europe in the name of multiculturalism, diversity of culture is great, not every single place in the world has to follow some linear development path, the Middle East can do what they want, thats great, diversity is good.
    Which is a different position altogether; much closer to cultural relativism.
    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Quote me exactly, at no point did I dismiss anything of what you said. I gave two specific examples. "6th century barbarism masquerading as religion", aka Islam, and "random african tribalism" by which I mean sub saharan africa, which has produced nothing of note.
    I didn't say you dismissed what I said? I said you you compared the civilisation, art, science, law and philosophy of the last 3000 years of the West to what you imagine is some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism. Like so:
    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    3000 years of westerns civilisation, art, science, law, philosophy is the same as some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism, come off it. The noble savage is dead.
    Such a comparison dismisses the civilisation, art, science, law and philosophy produced in the East in the last 3000 years. Or were you trying to deliberately mislead by comparing the entirety of the West to a just a couple of aspects of the East?


  • #7263
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    Well use the term western culture if you want to talk about it and not the less correct term of ethnocentric.
    Ethnocentricity; the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Saying western culture is superior to all other cultures is not a claim I have made , in 50 years time western culture may feel its been surpassed by east Asian culture, who knows. However certain systems like north Korea based on a man God like family can certainly be dismissed as wanting and unlikely to be good enough in terms of human development and the advancement of mankind.
    Which is not to say you haven't been strident in your opinion of the superiority of western culture, is it?
    silverharp wrote:
    western values are superior
    Seems a reasonably clear statement. Though these aren't exactly cheerleading for equivalence either:
    silverharp wrote: »
    in pragmatic terms for Europe this kind of thing cant be allowed, the girl is less likely to finish education, more likely to get pregnant which means Western society will have to deal with their dysfunctional offspring.
    silverharp wrote: »
    In social capital terms for the girl this is incompatible with the west, how can she possibly make a good parent?
    silverharp wrote: »
    A critical mass of people who are incompatible with the west is a bad thing
    silverharp wrote: »
    there are certain practices which might be acceptable in the third world which are out of kilter with living in the west . I'm not digging any hole, it is not good to have parallel societies developing in the west.
    silverharp wrote: »
    this Islamic value is inferior or mal adapted. These couples are also free to stay in an Islamic country if their values are that important to them.
    Cherry on top?
    silverharp wrote: »
    its obvious that some values are inferior to others .


  • #7264
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    Ethnocentricity; the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.

    Which is not to say you haven't been strident in your opinion of the superiority of western culture, is it?

    Seems a reasonably clear statement. Though these aren't exactly cheerleading for equivalence either:





    Cherry on top?

    if we are talking about western values like free speech or general Enlightenment values that tend to be thrown into the pot of "western values" then I would defend them on the basis that to lose them would be regressive. so it does mean that within western culture one asserts these values or else they could be lost by adopting communism or fascism or anything else incompatible with "western values".
    do I insist that Islamic countries adopt western values? No, they might not work there but I would argue that they shouldnt be tied to a false set of values which are not based on "living and breathing" documents, they are hard coded 7th century values which are unlikely to universally applicable across time.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #7265
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    if we are talking about western values like free speech or general Enlightenment values that tend to be thrown into the pot of "western values" then I would defend them on the basis that to lose them would be regressive. so it does mean that within western culture one asserts these values or else they could be lost by adopting communism or fascism or anything else incompatible with "western values".
    We're not though; we're talking about the fact that you think western values are superior to other values, not because you can find any ojective standard by which to compare them, but because you feel they have progressed more than others, again without an objective standard by which to measure them. Even your current post fails to acknowledge that communism and fascism are and have been western values; they're just not your current western values.
    silverharp wrote: »
    do I insist that Islamic countries adopt western values? No, they might not work there but I would argue that they shouldnt be tied to a false set of values which are not based on "living and breathing" documents, they are hard coded 7th century values which are unlikely to universally applicable across time.
    I don't see why you imagine your values are any less false than theirs. Many Western values are rooted in Christianity, just as many Eastern values are rooted in Islam (or Buddhism, or Shinto etc etc..). Thou Shalt Not Kill underpins many of our societies, and has been around since long before the 7th Century. Does the notion need to become more 'living and breathing' to have worth still? From that point of view the Easts hard coded values are marginally more recent than the Wests... as if that makes a difference.


  • #7266
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    We're not though; we're talking about the fact that you think western values are superior to other values, not because you can find any ojective standard by which to compare them, but because you feel they have progressed more than others, again without an objective standard by which to measure them. Even your current post fails to acknowledge that communism and fascism are and have been western values; they're just not your current western values.

    I don't see why you imagine your values are any less false than theirs. Many Western values are rooted in Christianity, just as many Eastern values are rooted in Islam (or Buddhism, or Shinto etc etc..). Thou Shalt Not Kill underpins many of our societies, and has been around since long before the 7th Century. Does the notion need to become more 'living and breathing' to have worth still? From that point of view the Easts hard coded values are marginally more recent than the Wests... as if that makes a difference.

    I said before that I don't claim that western values are superior in the absolute sense compared to all other values but I can dismiss certain values or systems because they fall so far below the standards we set for ourselves. Exhihib A north Korea, the fact that you argue that one can't dismiss NK tells me you are either brain washed in post modernism or you poe for your own amusement

    Many Christian values are based on preexisting values. Where do you get that I would dismiss all preexisting values. Various pre Christian societies had laws against murder and theft . where Islam goes wrong is that it permits things like child marriage which might have had a function in the 7 th century but not today as the more developed a society is the more important it is for parents to be educated themselves . a girl who is taken out of education at 9 years of age will not have reached her particular potential all because a 7 th century book is not a living document.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #7267
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....I don't think religion played any great part in it, no. Russia, for instance, was a Christian state in Europe but had to be occasionally dragged kicking and screaming forward.

    Let's stick with some basic human rights for a moment... There are several states in the US certain politicians are attempting to limit the rights of the LGBT community. There are several nation in the world that, to varying degrees, already limit the rights of the LGBT community, up to limiting their right to life.

    Can you spot the thing that these nations and these politicians have in common? The US is highly developed and not short of resources, whereas many of the nations aren't, so it can't be that. Any ideas?

    MrP


  • #7268
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    I said before that I don't claim that western values are superior in the absolute sense compared to all other values but I can dismiss certain values or systems because they fall so far below the standards we set for ourselves.
    That's pretty much the meaning of ethnocentrism; you're dismissing another culture simply because it's different from your own.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Exhihib A north Korea, the fact that you argue that one can't dismiss NK tells me you are either brain washed in post modernism or you poe for your own amusement
    And the fact that you would claim someone is brainwashed for disagreeing with you is a fairly damning indictment of your own critical abilities.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Many Christian values are based on preexisting values. Where do you get that I would dismiss all preexisting values.
    I don't recall saying any such thing. Do you think the brainwashing is affecting my memory?
    silverharp wrote: »
    Various pre Christian societies had laws against murder and theft . where Islam goes wrong is that it permits things like child marriage which might have had a function in the 7 th century but not today as the more developed a society is the more important it is for parents to be educated themselves .
    And the objective basis for your assertion of 'where Islam goes wrong' is....? Before we move on to your objective criteria for how developed societies are.
    silverharp wrote: »
    a girl who is taken out of education at 9 years of age will not have reached her particular potential all because a 7 th century book is not a living document.
    Those two seem suspiciously unrelated... are we taking it that all pre 8th century books aren't living documents, or are there exceptions? As living documents go, are there specific criteria for assessing the life of one? Is there an Institute that curates them or anything like that? Any idea how many there are?


  • #7269
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    No one is simplifying anything Nodin , but to not accept the powerful brake that religion has had on progress is unrealistic .)

    A brake, yes. How powerful varies greatly. The brake, certainly not, no.


  • #7270
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Let's stick with some basic human rights for a moment... There are several states in the US certain politicians are attempting to limit the rights of the LGBT community. There are several nation in the world that, to varying degrees, already limit the rights of the LGBT community, up to limiting their right to life.

    Can you spot the thing that these nations and these politicians have in common? The US is highly developed and not short of resources, whereas many of the nations aren't, so it can't be that. Any ideas?

    MrP

    Hold-overs and exceptions are not uncommon. Certainly the US has only emerged as a power in the last 100 years. It's getting there, in time and yes, religion has played a part in delaying it..


  • #7271
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    That's pretty much the meaning of ethnocentrism; you're dismissing another culture simply because it's different from your own.
    And the fact that you would claim someone is brainwashed for disagreeing with you is a fairly damning indictment of your own critical abilities.

    I don't recall saying any such thing. Do you think the brainwashing is affecting my memory?
    And the objective basis for your assertion of 'where Islam goes wrong' is....? Before we move on to your objective criteria for how developed societies are.

    Those two seem suspiciously unrelated... are we taking it that all pre 8th century books aren't living documents, or are there exceptions? As living documents go, are there specific criteria for assessing the life of one? Is there an Institute that curates them or anything like that? Any idea how many there are?

    I wouldnt dismiss a culture because it is different, but I would dismiss a system that is off the scale in terms of being unnecessarily cruel or simply doesnt work relative to its potential. NK is an example, the khmer rouge is another one. There are a whole bunch of countries in Asia for example that I simply have no opinion on but I fully accept they are different to the "West"
    Honestly someone that cant reason why certain systems cant be judged negatively relative to others is pushing credibility beyond breaking point. there is truth in the statement that South Korea is a superior society relative to North Korea which goes beyond resources available to either.
    Islam is wrong because there is no evidence that the founder was a messenger from God so it is not a book of timeless values so anyone who believes it is will likely make sub optimal decisions like have sex with 9 year olds or throw gay people off buildings. Im not sure what the problem is here, Im glad we have a legal system that outlaws certain things my 7th century ancestors might have deemed acceptable and that isnt beholden to very prescriptive rules of the time.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #7272
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Dams those religious people, they even hate the Deadpool movie :(

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/deadpool-and-the-mainstreaming-of-extreme-sexual-perversion


  • #7273
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,192 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Dams those religious people, they even hate the Deadpool movie :(

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/deadpool-and-the-mainstreaming-of-extreme-sexual-perversion

    I'm surprised Nega-Sonic Teenage Warhead didn't come in for criticism for not being a traditionally demure woman. :pac: The pegging tangent in that article was laughable, it's almost like they're scared of a woman taking charge.


  • #7274
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Dams those religious people, they even hate the Deadpool movie :(

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/deadpool-and-the-mainstreaming-of-extreme-sexual-perversion

    "First, let me acknowledge that I’m getting my information about this movie from online reviews. I haven’t seen it. Also, Deadpool is known for satire, so it’s possible that the perversion in question is depicted in order to expose and critique contemporary culture. If so, I’m in full agreement that it needs to be critiqued.
    "

    LOL


  • #7275
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Dams those religious people, they even hate the Deadpool movie :(

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/deadpool-and-the-mainstreaming-of-extreme-sexual-perversion

    "Well, with the debut of Deadpool, Marvel Comics and 20th Century Fox forced me last weekend to have a conversation with my two oldest sons about a level of sexual perversion that I’d prefer not to know about."

    but then

    "First, let me acknowledge that I’m getting my information about this movie from online reviews. I haven’t seen it. "

    'Hey son, lets have a chat about a movie we haven't seen - Anal Rampage IV. I'm given to understand that.....'

    It has to be said that the perversion he referred to wasn't the perversion I thought he was going to go on about.


  • #7276
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    A brake, yes. How powerful varies greatly. The brake, certainly not, no.


    Of course it has been the brake Nodin , anything that prevents the free flow of ideas is a monumental stumbling block , and Islam for the last number of centuries has been exactly that .

    That is not to say the the free flow of ideas always results in just the good ideas .Not at all , out of the same Enlightenment and philosophical journey we also came up with Communism and Fascism and Empires and eugenics ,bombing back to the stone age etc ,etc .

    But it was the same maelstrom of thought that gave us the resources to take on and defeat those aberrations.

    We progress by fault , Islam is ,or seems not to be , capable of that .


  • #7277
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    I wouldnt dismiss a culture because it is different, but I would dismiss a system that is off the scale in terms of being unnecessarily cruel or simply doesnt work relative to its potential.
    "I can dismiss certain values or systems because they fall so far below the standards we set for ourselves." That's dismissing them because they are different; the standards we set for ourselves have nothing to do with the standards they set for themselves, they're different.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Honestly someone that cant reason why certain systems cant be judged negatively relative to others is pushing credibility beyond breaking point.
    That's because how you view others credibility is rooted in your ethnocentricity; their views are not credible to you simply because they're not your views.
    silverharp wrote: »
    there is truth in the statement that South Korea is a superior society relative to North Korea which goes beyond resources available to either.
    There could be if you could provide objective criteria for judging the relative merits of societies, but you don't even try. You think South Korea is superior simply because it appears to be more aligned with your values; others may think the opposite for exactly the same reasons. Neither of you would be more correct than the other.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Islam is wrong because there is no evidence that the founder was a messenger from God so it is not a book of timeless values so anyone who believes it is will likely make sub optimal decisions like have sex with 9 year olds or throw gay people off buildings.
    Let's leave aside the idea that there should be books with 'timeless values' for everyone to read for a moment, and just look at what you wrote (because you obviously didn't). It may be the greatest nonsense you have ever posted, which would be quite an achievement. There are over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world; if everyone who believed in Islam was likely to throw a gay person off a building there would be hundreds of millions of dead gay people on pavements. If everyone who believed in Islam was likely to decide to have sex with a nine year old, there wouldn't be a nine year old virgin to be found.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Im not sure what the problem is here, Im glad we have a legal system that outlaws certain things my 7th century ancestors might have deemed acceptable and that isnt beholden to very prescriptive rules of the time.
    I think the problem is your belief in the inherent superiority of your own culture leads you to make statements like the above, amongst others. And of course the fact that people who hold such strong views of their own inherent superiority have been known in the past to use that to justify enslaving, oppressing and killing people they believe are inferior, so some of us like to avoid that sort of thing where possible.

    In fact I would say potential genocide and oppression are hazards of your particular belief, which moves us a little closer to back on topic :)


  • #7278
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    marienbad wrote: »
    Care to do a pro rata comparison say since the time of this man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna ?

    Absolam , care to give me an answer to my question ?


  • #7279
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    marienbad wrote: »
    Absolam , care to give me an answer to my question ?
    I did, I guess you missed it :)


  • #7280
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Absolam wrote: »
    I did, I guess you missed it :)

    Yes I did , apologies . Now care to explain how it refutes the proposition ?


  • #7281
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yes I did , apologies . Now care to explain how it refutes the proposition ?
    Sure; if you're claiming that 3000 years of westerns civilisation, art, science, law, philosophy are to be stacked against the same achievements of eastern civilisation amounting to the same as some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism, you're ignoring the fact that eastern civilisation over the last 3000 years has produced notable artists, scientists, jurists and philosophers, which demonstrates it is more than just some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism. Even one artist, scientist, jurist or philosopher is enough to make that point.


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  • #7282
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Of course it has been the brake Nodin , anything that prevents the free flow of ideas is a monumental stumbling block , and Islam for the last number of centuries has been exactly that .

    That is not to say the the free flow of ideas always results in just the good ideas .Not at all , out of the same Enlightenment and philosophical journey we also came up with Communism and Fascism and Empires and eugenics ,bombing back to the stone age etc ,etc .

    But it was the same maelstrom of thought that gave us the resources to take on and defeat those aberrations.

    We progress by fault , Islam is ,or seems not to be , capable of that .

    Taking religion as the sole reason for lack of progress is simplistic nonsense, and the equivalent of blaming atheism for the ills of soviet Russia.


  • #7283
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    "I can dismiss certain values or systems because they fall so far below the standards we set for ourselves." That's dismissing them because they are different; the standards we set for ourselves have nothing to do with the standards they set for themselves, they're different.

    That's because how you view others credibility is rooted in your ethnocentricity; their views are not credible to you simply because they're not your views.

    There could be if you could provide objective criteria for judging the relative merits of societies, but you don't even try. You think South Korea is superior simply because it appears to be more aligned with your values; others may think the opposite for exactly the same reasons. Neither of you would be more correct than the other.

    Let's leave aside the idea that there should be books with 'timeless values' for everyone to read for a moment, and just look at what you wrote (because you obviously didn't). It may be the greatest nonsense you have ever posted, which would be quite an achievement. There are over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world; if everyone who believed in Islam was likely to throw a gay person off a building there would be hundreds of millions of dead gay people on pavements. If everyone who believed in Islam was likely to decide to have sex with a nine year old, there wouldn't be a nine year old virgin to be found.
    I think the problem is your belief in the inherent superiority of your own culture leads you to make statements like the above, amongst others. And of course the fact that people who hold such strong views of their own inherent superiority have been known in the past to use that to justify enslaving, oppressing and killing people they believe are inferior, so some of us like to avoid that sort of thing where possible.

    In fact I would say potential genocide and oppression are hazards of your particular belief, which moves us a little closer to back on topic :)

    You keep misrepresenting my point, I have no problem with a society being different , but its logical to judge certain systems as being so out of kilter with how a healthy society could behave. Even the UN manages to condem NK over human rights abuses , but you wouldn't be able to comment, because you are not north Korean . lol.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #7284
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Absolam wrote: »
    Sure; if you're claiming that 3000 years of westerns civilisation, art, science, law, philosophy are to be stacked against the same achievements of eastern civilisation amounting to the same as some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism, you're ignoring the fact that eastern civilisation over the last 3000 years has produced notable artists, scientists, jurists and philosophers, which demonstrates it is more than just some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism. Even one artist, scientist, jurist or philosopher is enough to make that point.

    Not at all , but lets leave that for a bit .

    What is your explanation for the decline of the Islamic world since that golden age ? Or are you contending that it hasn't declined ?


  • #7285
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Taking religion as the sole reason for lack of progress is simplistic nonsense, and the equivalent of blaming atheism for the ills of soviet Russia.

    But I am not taking religion as the sole reason Nodin , but it is one of the main ones . Would you accept that ?


  • #7286
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    You keep misrepresenting my point, I have no problem with a society being different , but its logical to judge certain systems as being so out of kilter with how a healthy society could behave.
    Well, I keep quoting you; hardly misrepresenting. There's nothing logical about judging a society based on your own biased notion of what a healthy society is; it would be logical to compare (rather than judge) societies on an objective basis; you haven't come close to even thinking of what an objective basis might be.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Even the UN manages to condem NK over human rights abuses , but you wouldn't be able to comment, because you are not north Korean . lol.
    Does the UN say North Korea is an inferior society?


  • #7287
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    marienbad wrote: »
    Not at all , but lets leave that for a bit .
    Well, not at all is a bit bald. Care to expand?
    marienbad wrote: »
    What is your explanation for the decline of the Islamic world since that golden age ? Or are you contending that it hasn't declined ?
    I'm not holding forth either notion?


  • #7288
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,192 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    marienbad wrote: »
    Not at all , but lets leave that for a bit .

    What is your explanation for the decline of the Islamic world since that golden age ? Or are you contending that it hasn't declined ?

    From a quick Google search, the end of the Islamic Golden Age is largely due to the Mongol invasions of the mid-13th century, particularly the Sack of Baghdad. Baghdad used to be a great centre of learning, and it's arguably never recovered since then.


  • #7289
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    But I am not taking religion as the sole reason Nodin , but it is one of the main ones . Would you accept that ?

    In the instance of the middle east? it would be one amongst a number, yes.


  • #7290
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, I keep quoting you; hardly misrepresenting. There's nothing logical about judging a society based on your own biased notion of what a healthy society is; it would be logical to compare (rather than judge) societies on an objective basis; you haven't come close to even thinking of what an objective basis might be.
    Does the UN say North Korea is an inferior society?

    of course you are. As for judging societies im not interested in where particular societies are on a development scale but moreso obvious failures in a society which holds that society back. NK for instance is a closed society, people arent allowed to travel or have free access to information from abroad, in terms of how societies work and develop this is an objective failure. I suppose you will say that I am based against closed societies :pac:

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #7291
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    probably a bit of kite flying but disturbing none the less, paper by US gynaecologists suggesting that limited FGM should be introduced in the west. Personally I'd like things to go the other way and aim to get rid of male baby genital mutilation


    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/pair-of-us-gynecologists-urge-compromise-on-female-genital-cutting/comments/#disqus

    Western states should legally permit immigrant communities to surgically “nick” young girls’ vaginas as an alternative to genital mutilation, a pair of US gynaecologists argued in a hotly-challenged paper Tuesday.

    Such a “compromise” could allow groups to honour cultural or religious prescripts while saving millions of girls from invasive and disfiguring genital slashing practised in some African and Middle Eastern cultures, the two doctors stated in the Journal of Medical Ethics.

    “We are not arguing that any procedure on the female genitalia is desirable,” said Kavita Arora of the Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland and Allan Jacobs of Stony Brook University in New York state.

    “Rather, we only argue that certain procedures ought to be tolerated by liberal societies”, which have outlawed such practices but host immigrants for whom it is part of their culture.

    Efforts to enforce an outright ban on female genital mutilation (FGM) have often had the opposite effect — driving the practice underground and putting women at even greater risk, said the duo.

    But many peers immediately dismissed the idea.

    According to Arianne Shahvisi of the University of Sussex ethics department in Britain: “One must not cause irreversible changes to the body of another person without their consent.”

    Arora and Jacobs, however, contended that a one-size-fits-all approach ignored that many people believed the procedure to be a means of achieving “moral or ritual purity” for their child.

    Vaginal cutting is widely regarded as a libido-reducer, intended in certain cultures to keep a woman chaste.

    According to the World Health Organization, about three million girls a year fall victim to genital mutilation.

    It can cause urinary difficulties, cysts and infection, infertility and complications in childbirth.

    – Like dental work –

    Arora and Jacobs have proposed new sub-categories of genital cutting.....

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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