The Hazards of Belief

Absolam

volchitsa wrote: »

(Isn't a child born to a married couple considered by default to be the husband's child? The age of the bride is irrelevant to that, surely?)

So, how many of the married refugees being separated that have just had children have been in Denmark for nine months?

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

Sure... just none that you can show anyone, right? They have to be 'right minded' to see it

It is very easy to ask for proof of something, a fine online practice. The practice of separating these children from the adults who are having sex with them is a proposal as far as I can see. Perhaps no separations have happened yet. Where do you expect this proof to be?

You really cannot accept that a child being pregnant and living as a wife with an adult merits action on the part of the authorities?

Do you really not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

It is very easy to ask for proof of something, a fine online practice.

Also a fine practice in courts of law, in fact most arenas where it is preferred justice should prevail.

galljga1 wrote: »

The practice of separating these children from the adults who are having sex with them is a proposal as far as I can see. Perhaps no separations have happened yet. Where do you expect this proof to be?

I don't believe anyone in Denmark has proposed separating children from adults having sex with them at all. The Danish Minister has asked the Immigration Service to put a stop to minors living with their spouses or partners. No mention of sex whatsoever from her.

galljga1 wrote: »

You really cannot accept that a child being pregnant and living as a wife with an adult merits action on the part of the authorities?

Hmm. Do you have any evidence for that allegation either?

galljga1 wrote: »

Do you really not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

I certainly see something wrong with accusing people of illegal activities without evidence....

How are you getting on with all that evidence by the way? Found anything at all yet?

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

Also a fine practice in courts of law, in fact most arenas where it is preferred justice should prevail.
I don't believe anyone in Denmark has proposed separating children from adults having sex with them at all. The Danish Minister has asked the Immigration Service to put a stop to minors living with their spouses or partners. No mention of sex whatsoever from her.
Hmm. Do you have any evidence for that allegation either?
I certainly see something wrong with accusing people of illegal activities without evidence....

How are you getting on with all that evidence by the way? Found anything at all yet?

So, should I take that as a no then: you do not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

And you really cannot accept that a child being pregnant and living as a wife with an adult merits action on the part of the authorities?

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

So, should I take that as a no then: you do not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

Well, you take so much else without any evidence, why would you even ask?

galljga1 wrote: »

And you really cannot accept that a child being pregnant and living as a wife with an adult merits action on the part of the authorities?

Wait, you have evidence for this pregnant child?

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

Well, you take so much else without any evidence, why would you even ask?
Wait, you have evidence for this pregnant child?

I have read reports of eight "married" children in Danish asylum centres being already pregnant, or already haven given birth. A simple search will lead to various articles making this or similar declarations. Take them or leave them. Your choice.

I love the way you continually sidestep answering my questions on your position on adults having sex with children. Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

I have read reports of eight "married" children in Danish asylum centres being already pregnant, or already haven given birth. A simple search will lead to various articles making this or similar declarations. Take them or leave them. Your choice.

Great. You can give us links to these reports then? I have a sneaking suspicion from the way you've phrased it that we may discover they were pregnant before they arrived in Denmark and therefore have done nothing illegal, but I won't leap to any conclusions before you present your evidence; that would be wrong.

galljga1 wrote: »

I love the way you continually sidestep answering my questions on your position on adults having sex with children. Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

The thing is, you haven't given me any evidence from which to formulate an answer, have you? Answering questions founded purely on your imagination is really just stroking your ego, and I can't see any good reason at all to do that.
But you've assured me there is evidence, so once you've got it all laid out I'm sure we can get down to some good old righteous SJW condemnation, eh?

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

Great. You can give us links to these reports then? I have a sneaking suspicion from the way you've phrased it that we may discover they were pregnant before they arrived in Denmark and therefore have done nothing illegal, but I won't leap to any conclusions before you present your evidence; that would be wrong.

The thing is, you haven't given me any evidence from which to formulate an answer, have you? Answering questions founded purely on your imagination is really just stroking your ego, and I can't see any good reason at all to do that.
But you've assured me there is evidence, so once you've got it all laid out I'm sure we can get down to some good old righteous SJW condemnation, eh?

Be as obtuse as you like.

Direct question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

Be as obtuse as you like.
Direct question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

Direct question; are you ever going to present a scrap of evidence for even a single assertion you've made in this entire thread?

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

Direct question; are you ever going to present a scrap of evidence for even a single assertion you've made in this entire thread?

Direct question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

Direct question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

I guess we've reached an impasse so; you won't deal with facts and I won't pander to you. Oh well.

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

I guess we've reached an impasse so; you won't deal with facts and I won't pander to you. Oh well.

You wont answer a simple question.

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

You wont answer a simple question.

Well, I might if you could provide a factual basis for it. Remember... all that evidence we were talking about?

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

Well, I might if you could provide a factual basis for it. Remember... all that evidence we were talking about?

Simple question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children? The question is straightforward.

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

Simple question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children? The question is straightforward.

I guess that's a step backwards so

volchitsa

I only see those posts of Absolam's which are quoted by others, so perhaps Ive misunderstood his objections, but if it is that he simply doesn't believe that there are married children in asylum centers in Denmark, and/or that some of them are pregnant - obviously by their husbands, or the latter would surely divorce the child concerned for infidelity - then perhaps this will help clear up the misunderstanding :

http://www.thelocal.dk/20160211/child-brides-in-danish-asylum-centres-to-be-separated-from-spouses

“It is completely unacceptable that there are currently minors within the Danish asylum system living with their spouses or partners and I have asked the Danish Immigration Service to immediately put a stop to it,” Støjberg said.

“We should naturally ensure that young girls are not being forced to live in a relationship with an adult at the asylum centres,” she added.

Last month, the Integration Ministry obtained an overview of the Danish asylum system that revealed that there are currently 27 minors who have spouses or partners. According to a Wednesday report in Metroxpress, there are two married 14-year-old girls at Danish asylum centres. One is married to a 28-year-old man, while the other is pregnant and has a 24-year-old husband.

There's also a link in the article directly to a press release on the issue by the Danish Integration Minister Inger Støjberg, mentioned above, so there is no doubt of its veracity.

(The press release is in Danish, but since The Local is a site for English speakers living in Denmark, many of whom must speak at least some Danish, the article has to be a reliable account of the contents of the press release or someone reading it would notice!)

If I'm wrong and Absolam's objection to this claim is something else entirely, eg that it's perfectly ok to have 14 year olds married off to 28 year old men for some reason which I am currently unable to imagine then of course I may not be aware of that if someone doesn't happen to reply to it. So my apologies in advance, perhaps.

galljga1

galljga1 wrote: »

Simple question: Do you not see anything wrong with adults having sex with children? The question is straightforward.

Absolam wrote: »

I guess that's a step backwards so

No, just a simple question.

Absolam

galljga1 wrote: »

No, just a simple question.

And yet... still a step backwards

galljga1

Absolam wrote: »

And yet... still a step backwards

No.
Just trying to ascertain whether or not you see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

TheChizler

galljga1 wrote: »

No.
Just trying to ascertain whether or not you see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

I think it's quite clear that they don't support it, and you're not going to get an answer to the contrary.

silverharp

galljga1 wrote: »

No.
Just trying to ascertain whether or not you see anything wrong with adults having sex with children?

not if they are legally married somewhere on the planet is my understanding of his position :pac:

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

Also a fine practice in courts of law, in fact most arenas where it is preferred justice should prevail.
I don't believe anyone in Denmark has proposed separating children from adults having sex with them at all. The Danish Minister has asked the Immigration Service to put a stop to minors living with their spouses or partners. No mention of sex whatsoever from her.
Hmm. Do you have any evidence for that allegation either?
I certainly see something wrong with accusing people of illegal activities without evidence....

How are you getting on with all that evidence by the way? Found anything at all yet?

Just wondering how you reconcile the above with:

I think addressing the cause would be taking action to reduce/prevent prevalent rape in the first place, rather than coping with the results afterwards. An all round more humane approach I would have thought. I do take your point though; punishing rapists could help with reducing rape (assuming it's not happening already, though if it is then apparently not), but I don't really see how legalising abortion would.

and

Of course, there are those like myself who would suggest killing some people in order to remove trauma from others is not rational; perhaps we could find a way to remove their trauma without killing anyone (and the best way to do that would be to ensure the rape doesn't happen in the first place).

both quotes from you in the abortion thread.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

Just wondering how you reconcile the above with:
and
both quotes from you in the abortion thread.

Pretty easily actually; I'm in favour of punishing rapists, not of punishing people others think may rape someone.

Ensuring rape doesn't happen in the first place shouldn't require pre-judging potential rapists (every male in the world according to some analyses) and taking pre-emptive action against them. It should require creating an environment where it is clear what rape is (like for instance providing refugees from other cultures with the information that whilst their marriage was perfectly acceptable in their home, sleeping with their wife is a punishable offence in the country in which they have arrived), where it is clear that the act of rape (as defined in that society) is repugnant to that society, and where it is clear that those found guilty of rape will face severe consequences. But that nevertheless, everyone, regardless of where they are from or what values they espouse, is innocent until proven guilty.


Thanks for the quote mining, it's great when people make an effort to help you get your point across

Absolam

TheChizler wrote: »

I think it's quite clear that they don't support it, and you're not going to get an answer to the contrary.

Just to be clear, do you think it's clear I don't support seeing anything wrong with adults having sex with children, or it's clear I don't support adults having sex with children? That didn't seem too... clear.

silverharp wrote: »

not if they are legally married somewhere on the planet is my understanding of his position :pac:

That certainly seems to come close to an approximation of what I've been saying; in a culture where young adults marry (even if another culture is of the opinion that those young adults are children), it is not 'wrong' for them to have sex within their marriage.
Should they be so unfortunate as to have to flee their homes in fear of their lives and arrive in a culture with different values they should, as I have said, obey the rule of law, even if their view is that what is illegal isn't 'wrong'. Just as Danish women may not drive a car in Saudi Arabia, or must cover their heads in southern Iraq whether they feel it is right or wrong. They shouldn't, however, have their families broken up simply because someone else feels their circumstances are 'unacceptable', nor should they have unfounded accusations of rape or abuse thrown at them by people who simply aren't prepared to accept they don't have a monopoly on cultural values.

Absolam

volchitsa wrote: »

I only see those posts of Absolam's which are quoted by others, so perhaps Ive misunderstood his objections, but if it is that he simply doesn't believe that there are married children in asylum centers in Denmark, and/or that some of them are pregnant - obviously by their husbands, or the latter would surely divorce the child concerned for infidelity - then perhaps this will help clear up the misunderstanding :
http://www.thelocal.dk/20160211/child-brides-in-danish-asylum-centres-to-be-separated-from-spouses
There's also a link in the article directly to a press release on the issue by the Danish Integration Minister Inger Støjberg, mentioned above, so there is no doubt of its veracity.
(The press release is in Danish, but since The Local is a site for English speakers living in Denmark, many of whom must speak at least some Danish, the article has to be a reliable account of the contents of the press release or someone reading it would notice!)
If I'm wrong and Absolam's objection to this claim is something else entirely, eg that it's perfectly ok to have 14 year olds married off to 28 year old men for some reason which I am currently unable to imagine then of course I may not be aware of that if someone doesn't happen to reply to it. So my apologies in advance, perhaps.

It's a real pity you can't see the posts you're trying to argue against. It's understandably much easier to knock down the argument that you make up on someone's behalf, but if you did know what you were talking about it would probably save you a bit of effort. Apology accepted all the same

TheChizler

Absolam wrote: »

Just to be clear, do you think it's clear I don't support seeing anything wrong with adults having sex with children, or it's clear I don't support adults having sex with children? That didn't seem too... clear.

Now I'm unclear :S, but I think it's clear that you don't support adults having sex with children.

Just hoping to help move the conversation along!

Absolam

TheChizler wrote: »

Now I'm unclear :S, but I think it's clear that you don't support adults having sex with children.
Just hoping to help move the conversation along!

Fair enough!

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

Just to be clear, do you think it's clear I don't support seeing anything wrong with adults having sex with children, or it's clear I don't support adults having sex with children? That didn't seem too... clear.

That certainly seems to come close to an approximation of what I've been saying; in a culture where young adults marry (even if another culture is of the opinion that those young adults are children), it is not 'wrong' for them to have sex within their marriage.
Should they be so unfortunate as to have to flee their homes in fear of their lives and arrive in a culture with different values they should, as I have said, obey the rule of law, even if their view is that what is illegal isn't 'wrong'. Just as Danish women may not drive a car in Saudi Arabia, or must cover their heads in southern Iraq whether they feel it is right or wrong. They shouldn't, however, have their families broken up simply because someone else feels their circumstances are 'unacceptable', nor should they have unfounded accusations of rape or abuse thrown at them by people who simply aren't prepared to accept they don't have a monopoly on cultural values.

I wouldn't use the word monopoly but in the context of a modern society , this Islamic value is inferior or mal adapted. Even from an Islamic country's perspective, its not a positive value today because it reduces human development as these girls are deprived of the opportunity of achieving anything approaching their potential.
Its appropriate for Denmark in this case to assert its values on its soil. These couples are also free to stay in an Islamic country if their values are that important to them.

Absolam

silverharp wrote: »

I wouldn't use the word monopoly but in the context of a modern society , this Islamic value is inferior or mal adapted.
Even from an Islamic country's perspective, its not a positive value today because it reduces human development as these girls are deprived of the opportunity of achieving anything approaching their potential.
Its appropriate for Denmark in this case to assert its values on its soil. These couples are also free to stay in an Islamic country if their values are that important to them.

Since you've shown you're familiar with the term cultural relativism, it probably comes as no surprise that your views on the inferiority of others values would be described as ethnocentrism; a trait you share with ISIS oddly enough. Given a choice between the two I'll take the tolerance of cultural relativism any day.

JPNelsforearm

Absolam wrote: »

Since you've shown you're familiar with the term cultural relativism, it probably comes as no surprise that your views on the inferiority of others values would be described as ethnocentrism; a trait you share with ISIS oddly enough. Given a choice between the two I'll take the tolerance of cultural relativism any day.

Cultural relativism is a denial of human evolution, both biologically and culturally . Its a leap of faith not backed up by any evidence. What you are calling "ethnocentrism" is merely an observation of clear examples of western superiority(also Eastern, but Japan and China are not importing these cultures, so lets keep it at Western), be it culturally, sociologically or in scientific endeavours. Unlike ISIS however, I dont think anyone is going on a crusade to spread their version of civilisation.
Africa and the middle east can keep their culture and stay as ****holes, I frankly dont care, but the idea that you say those clearly failed and regressive cultures should be held up as the equal of western civilisation, just lol.
3000 years of westerns civilisation, art, science, law, philosophy is the same as some 6th century barbarism masquerading as religion, or random African tribalism, come off it. The noble savage is dead.