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Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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    #962
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Cabaal wrote: »
    By your logic we never should have had a referendum on marriage equality, instead we should have just respected what was in the constitution already. The constitution is not some unchanging document, its important that it reflects the views of the society we live in and right now when it comes to the 8th that doesn't appear to be the case (amongst other inclusions in it!). The only way to settle this issue is to allow the people to vote on it.

    In relation to our constitution and respecting what is in it,. wasn't that one of the arguments put forward by Lolek Ltd & Co when they lobbied against marriage equality?
    They didn't respect what people wanted to change, and when the country voted yes we still had people that didn't respect that outcome as they tried to delay the outcome over and over by going to the highcourt.

    The bottom line is nobody has got to vote on the 8th issue thats below the age of 40, we the people are entitled to have our say. If as you say people should respect "life" then you have nothing to worry about as clearly no referendum will pass in your world.

    You already are entitled to have your say on abortion, nothing is stopping that. I'm sorry that we didn't have a time machine back then to zap you all back from the future and help swing the vote for abortion, but that's how a referendum works. Only the people who were eligible to vote at the time were allowed to vote. People need to accept democracy, even when it doesn't work out how they would like.

    Watching the election coverage over the last few weeks, I'm not seeing any desire amongst the general population to change the status quo, just the usual lines trotted out verbatim from the usual suspects. There are more pressing issues facing the average man and woman on the street.


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    #963
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,114 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I'm not seeing any desire amongst the general population to change the status quo,

    Are you like Dev, just having to look into your heart to discover what the Irish people want?


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    #964
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Kole Round Spectator wrote: »
    Obviously not, a miscarriage is natural. Its like comparing someone dying of natural causes to someone who is shot.





    Ahh I was being sarcastic and pointing out the contradiction of people in favour of abortion who are highlighting stuff like "bodily integrity" and you can't violate it while campaigning for the violation of the bodily integrity of the unborn child.

    As usual people trying to force abortion into Ireland are clinging on to exceptional and difficult cases to make their point when the reality is they want perfectly healthy mothers to be allowed kill their perfectly healthy babies just because they feel like it.

    Natural eh???
    Like the septic shock some women go into, in a hospital bed right in front of their medical carers, while miscarrying a baby?
    But they might not be quite close enough to death to warrant the proper and medically appropriate interventions to save the mother's life.
    You mean that kind of natural death?

    And don't give me that baloney about this type of stuff being exceptional and difficult. The fact that it can happen at all in what some people like to consider a first world country is disgraceful.


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    #965
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    There are more pressing issues facing the average man and woman on the street.

    I'm sorry but I call bollox on that counter argument,
    By that logic we should never deal with any other issue unless the "more pressing" issues are resolved first. Your counter argument is a cop out and you know right well that it is.

    Your counter argument is the same crap rolled out by anti marriage equality people prior to the referendum being announced. Equality and rights are never issues we should just keep kicking down the road.

    But you are right, we are a democracy and that's why we can push for another referendum on the matter and enable the people of Ireland to use their democratic right to vote on the matter. Just because something exists in our laws doesn't mean it can never ever change after all, only a fool thinks otherwise.


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    #966
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Kole Round Spectator wrote: »
    I think its a barbaric practice that should be outlawed except in very specific circumstances such as the mother will definitely die without the procedure.
    Well you can look at countries in South America to see exactly what happens when you outlaw abortions. What that doesn't stop are abortions, in fact women in Brazil (first South American country I picked) actually have abortions at a much higher rate than those in the UK. Obviously estimates, because we are dealing with an outlawed practice there, but studies estimate it at being about twice the rate.

    You obviously see this as a moral issue, but you clearly cannot force your morality on anyone else using the law. The only thing the law can do is either let women who make that choice, do so in a safe manner, or do so in a manner which risks their health, and their freedom. That is the only part of this debate that is worth discussing, apart from a purely academic sense, because it is the only part that we can control.

    Clearly Brazil takes your view, and sees 200,000 women a year hospitalized because of it...


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    #967
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You already are entitled to have your say on abortion, nothing is stopping that. I'm sorry that we didn't have a time machine back then to zap you all back from the future and help swing the vote for abortion, but that's how a referendum works. Only the people who were eligible to vote at the time were allowed to vote. People need to accept democracy, even when it doesn't work out how they would like.

    We'll remind you of that if there is a referendum and the 8th is repealed. And there probably will be, because no decision is final. Our constitution changes, it changed in 1983 and it can change again.


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    #968
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,565 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Absolam wrote: »
    How?

    This part of it: to provide for an offence of intentional destruction of unborn human life;.....

    Edit/add-on.... This is meant for anyone for anyone who wishes to have the 8th amendment retained, as is, within the constitution. Would you prefer the 1861 act which outlawed abortion to be re-enacted, bearing in mind that the offence of causing death by abortion was covered by the act. POLDPA includes an offence of intentional destruction of unborn human life, referring to any destructions carried out outside the prescribed legal methods and reasons in POLDPA.

    I mused about this topic wondering if, had abortion been legal here in the past, many of those posting here (including myself) may have been denied the chance.


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    #969
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead




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    #970
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,052 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    aloyisious wrote: »

    I mused about this topic wondering if, had abortion been legal here in the past, many of those posting here (including myself) may have been denied the chance.

    Funny, that's a question I honestly cannot understand.

    My parents were 21 and 24 when I was born, and my sister a year later, then a brother - so if contraception had been legal back then (I'm 50) then presumably I wouldn't be here now. And maybe at least one of the other two as well. Does that mean I think contraception should not be available for my daughters now? Absolutely not. If my parents hadn't had me, well so what? I wouldn't be here so it wouldn't bother me, would it?

    And presumably because they had us when they were so young, there were several other children they didn't have ten years later. Maybe those non existent kids were far more brilliant than any of the ones they did have, who knows?


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    #971
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Funny, that's a question I honestly cannot understand.

    My parents were 21 and 24 when I was born, and my sister a year later, then a brother - so if contraception had been legal back then (I'm 50) then presumably I wouldn't be here now. And maybe at least one of the other two as well. Does that mean I think contraception should not be available for my daughters now? Absolutely not. If my parents hadn't had me, well so what? I wouldn't be here so it wouldn't bother me, would it?

    And presumably because they had us when they were so young, there were several other children they didn't have ten years later. Maybe those non existent kids were far more brilliant than any of the ones they did have, who knows?

    I'm in my late 30's and abortion was available to my mother. It's just bizarre to think that her grandchildren are now in a situation where it may not be available to them if we continue to live here. I'm more than happy that my mother had abortion available to her during her childbearing years, and that our country valued her enough to put her life, health and wellbeing first.


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    #972
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I mused about this topic wondering if, had abortion been legal here in the past, many of those posting here (including myself) may have been denied the chance.

    Didn't need to be legal here, our mothers just would have had to get the money and time off to travel. For some it would have been easy, for others it would have been near impossible.


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    #973
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    My mother has been open about her use of contraception and the fact each and every one of her pregnancies were planned, even though not all went to term. She's now completely opposed to the eighth amendment. She thought you could get an abortion here for cases of rape or FFA and I had to explain that in Ireland unless a doctor thinks your life is at enough of a risk no abortion here is available. I know she was worried about me during my pregnancies as I had some complications and has expressed the thought that if she was of childbearing age she wouldn't feel safe here.


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    #974
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    Didn't need to be legal here, our mothers just would have had to get the money and time off to travel. For some it would have been easy, for others it would have been near impossible.

    Also if you've children already you've to organise child care. Not always an easy ask.


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    #975
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    lazygal wrote: »
    My mother has been open about her use of contraception and the fact each and every one of her pregnancies were planned, even though not all went to term. She's now completely opposed to the eighth amendment. She thought you could get an abortion here for cases of rape or FFA and I had to explain that in Ireland unless a doctor thinks your life is at enough of a risk no abortion here is available. I know she was worried about me during my pregnancies as I had some complications and has expressed the thought that if she was of childbearing age she wouldn't feel safe here.

    I have explained how extreme the law is here to my family and friends back home, and they are all very concerned that we are trying for another child, with the complications of fertility treatment, in this country. All knew that Ireland has backward abortion laws, but like someone mentioned above, most assume that relates only to 'on demand', not rape, FFA and health of woman. All have been shocked and horrified that a 1st world country would treat women like that in this day and age. After my mother read about Savita Halappanavar in a NZ newspaper, she rang me and said she doesn't think I should risk trying to get pregnant here and should return home until we have finished our family/trying to extend our family.


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    #976
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The eighth amendment is one reason I'm not sure I want another child.


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    #977
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    lazygal wrote: »
    The eighth amendment is one reason I'm not sure I want another child.
    And why I'm thankful I'm having my little one in London!


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    #978
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    And why I'm thankful I'm having my little one in London!

    I'm leaving London at the end of this year to move back to Dublin to start planting the seeds of a family, but this is a huge issue that makes me second-guess the move. My gf is a midwife here in London and she's fearing working in midwifery back in Ireland.


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    #979
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    wp_rathead wrote: »

    The 13 year old who was raped.
    The woman who talked about using items from her kitchen.

    What a law.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



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    #980
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    aloyisious wrote: »
    This part of it: to provide for an offence of intentional destruction of unborn human life;.....
    As has been pointed out, it is an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life in the jurisdiction, not outside it.
    aloyisious wrote: »
    Edit/add-on.... This is meant for anyone for anyone who wishes to have the 8th amendment retained, as is, within the constitution. Would you prefer the 1861 act which outlawed abortion to be re-enacted, bearing in mind that the offence of causing death by abortion was covered by the act. POLDPA includes an offence of intentional destruction of unborn human life, referring to any destructions carried out outside the prescribed legal methods and reasons in POLDPA.
    I'd keep the 8th and the POLDPA; the POLDPA is more up to date and on point than the portions of the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act which were repealed.


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    #981
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robdonn wrote: »
    I'm leaving London at the end of this year to move back to Dublin to start planting the seeds of a family, but this is a huge issue that makes me second-guess the move. My gf is a midwife here in London and she's fearing working in midwifery back in Ireland.

    Between this and the absolute clusterfcuk that is the education system here (for anyone who isn't a catholic looking to raise little catholics) I'd say stay where you are.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #982
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Between this and the absolute clusterfcuk that is the education system here (for anyone who isn't a catholic looking to raise little catholics) I'd say stay where you are.

    Yeah but education begins at home. There are some great deprogramming tips on the David Icke forum along with an array of fascinating literature, music and even t-shirts, well, one t-shirt.

    If you think your world is a bit mad, just check out http://www.davidicke.com/


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    #983
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I have explained how extreme the law is here to my family and friends back home, and they are all very concerned that we are trying for another child, with the complications of fertility treatment, in this country. All knew that Ireland has backward abortion laws, but like someone mentioned above, most assume that relates only to 'on demand', not rape, FFA and health of woman. All have been shocked and horrified that a 1st world country would treat women like that in this day and age. After my mother read about Savita Halappanavar in a NZ newspaper, she rang me and said she doesn't think I should risk trying to get pregnant here and should return home until we have finished our family/trying to extend our family.

    Can you kindly tell your mother that Ireland has a lower infant mortality rate than NZ? You would be taking a greater risk by having a baby over there.


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    #984
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Can you kindly tell your mother that Ireland has a lower infant mortality rate than NZ? You would be taking a greater risk by having a baby over there.

    So simply not dying is your benchmark for safety. Ireland's maternity services are notoriously poor at reporting maternal mortality rates anyway, so they're not accurate statistics. Ireland's maternity services are middling. There's some good things but I wouldn't describe them as world class, especially when doctors have to wait until your life is at risk before intervening. If I'm in Savita's situation I want an abortion when I ask for one, not when the doctor and laws decide I'm close enough to dying.


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    #985
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Between this and the absolute clusterfcuk that is the education system here (for anyone who isn't a catholic looking to raise little catholics) I'd say stay where you are.
    Meh... 6th on the UN HDI Education index for 2013, 2012, 2011, 5th in 2010. As clusterfcuks go our education system isn't doing too bad out of the 187 countries the UN monitors. Though in fairness New Zealand is No. 2... no arguing with that.


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    #986
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    lazygal wrote: »
    So simply not dying is your benchmark for safety. Ireland's maternity services are notoriously poor at reporting maternal mortality rates anyway, so they're not accurate statistics. Ireland's maternity services are middling. There's some good things but I wouldn't describe them as world class, especially when doctors have to wait until your life is at risk before intervening. If I'm in Savita's situation I want an abortion when I ask for one, not when the doctor and laws decide I'm close enough to dying.

    Ireland's maternity services have a very good reputation, as good as anywhere else in the world. So I would describe them as world-class.

    Savita died from human error, not our abortion laws. I really wish the poor girl would be allowed to rest in peace, and not have her corpse dug up and paraded around to score political points.


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    #987
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Ireland's maternity services have a very good reputation, as good as anywhere else in the world. So I would describe them as world-class.

    I wouldn't describe any service where your informed consent can be overruled by a doctor or midwife simply citing the 8th amendment as world class.


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    #988
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Ireland's maternity services have a very good reputation, as good as anywhere else in the world. So I would describe them as world-class.

    Savita died from human error, not our abortion laws. I really wish the poor girl would be allowed to rest in peace, and not have her corpse dug up and paraded around to score political points.

    Savita asked for an abortion when she was miscarrying and was refused. That's not the type of maternity service I want to have another child in. A good reputation doesn't mean the actual services are good. Plenty of schools, for example, have good reputations, that doesn't mean I'd send my children to them.


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    #989
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That just looks like using semantics you're more comfortable with, as the outcome of either perspective is exactly the same.

    If one is going to measure things solely in terms of "outcomes" and nothing else..... then by that measure one would, as volchitsa suggests, also have to include contraception. Because if contraception prevents a pregnancy that otherwise WAS going to happen, then "the outcome is the same".

    Thankfully however a significant quantity of people seem to measure things like this is more nuanced and in depth terms that merely "outcomes".
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    people who simply do not share your wish to refer to their unborn child as a foetus or whatever other terms you'd use to distance yourself from reality as much as possible.

    Errrrr it is a fetus. So the people NOT accepting that term are the ones "distancing themselves from reality". Not the other way around as you pretend here.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I'm also not going to attempt to be so reductionist in an attempt to distance myself from reality because it makes me uncomfortable.

    Yet discussing merely "outcomes" and little else is very reductionist so let's not do that.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I hate some of the nonsense terminology and spin used by anyone to try and make out like they're in the right and everyone else is wrong

    Then by all means get the terminology right. Such as not accusing someone of calling a spade a spade, or a fetus a fetus, as being the ones "distancing themselves from reality" when the exact opposite is true.


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    #990
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    lazygal wrote: »
    Savita asked for an abortion when she was miscarrying and was refused. That's not the type of maternity service I want to have another child in. A good reputation doesn't mean the actual services are good. Plenty of schools, for example, have good reputations, that doesn't mean I'd send my children to them.

    Like I said, human error, not our laws. Our services are good, it's disingenuous to try and run them down. Why don't mothers emigrate then, if we're so backwards here? The opposite is actually true; people are coming here to start families.


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    #991
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Why don't mothers emigrate then, if we're so backwards here? The opposite is actually true; people are coming here to start families.

    Maybe because people do not mediate decisions based on one single attribute? But as an overall picture as a whole?

    We may be backwards on some issues, but that is not cause to act like you suggest and simply throw your hands up and surrender or retreat. It is cause to work harder on those issues and improve them.

    There are plenty of reasons to move to Ireland to settle down and have a family. That does not mean there are not ALSO many issues to work on and improve there too.


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