UCD Ag science banter

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 03:27PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If that's the standard you're using, then you're well on your way to arguing that all sex is rape.

Let's be clear on the fact that you made that preposterous leap, not me.

One eyed Jack · 07-02-2016 03:28PM

Kev W wrote: »

That was me, and I did explain it a couple of posts later. And an unwillingness to hild someone's hand when they clearly have their mind made up is not same as an inability.

References to hand holding without consent are an example of rape culture!!

I'm being purposely facetious btw in order to point out the utter futility of the term. I understand what you meant, and if you're unable to explain something to someone on their terms, then yes, that's clearly an inability that you're responsible for, not the person who doesn't understand you.

There's not much point in "raising awareness" of anything if you're not committed to following through to make sure people have a clear understanding of what you mean. Otherwise you're just grandstanding about "issues" - "everyone listen to me and don't ask any awkward questions!".

One eyed Jack · 07-02-2016 03:37PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Let's be clear on the fact that you made that preposterous leap, not me.

Absolutely, and I take full responsibility for making that preposterous leap to show you the logical conclusion of your own preposterous leap. Well, I know it's not actually your own preposterous leap, as it's a claim I hear bandied about quite a bit, I've yet to see any evidence for the link though other than shoving it out there and expecting people to make that leap themselves. In a way it sounds like it should make sense of course, but it only makes sense to those people who already have a persecution complex.

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 03:46PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely, and I take full responsibility for making that preposterous leap to show you the logical conclusion of your own preposterous leap. Well, I know it's not actually your own preposterous leap, as it's a claim I hear bandied about quite a bit, I've yet to see any evidence for the link though other than shoving it out there and expecting people to make that leap themselves. In a way it sounds like it should make sense of course, but it only makes sense to those people who already have a persecution complex.

Here's one of hundreds of definitions that can be found through a simple google search. http://www.wgac.colostate.edu/what-is-rape-supportive-culture

To me, rape culture is anything that in anyway attempts to justify violence against women, be it explicit or tacit.

Obvious examples include asking what a rape victim was wearing, why she was alone, why she walked home or why she didn't fight her attacker more. These questions are almost never raised when the victim of a rape is male.

In this thread, I would include posts that imply these girls were asking for it for allowing these photos to be taken. There is absolutely nothing immoral or illegal about sharing intimate photos with your lover. It is both immoral and (I believe) illegal to distribute photos of a former lover for revenge.

Ficheall · 07-02-2016 04:03PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

To me, rape culture is anything that in anyway attempts to justify violence against women, be it explicit or tacit.

Something like posting "Pics or GTFO"?

tritium · 07-02-2016 04:14PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Here's one of hundreds of definitions that can be found through a simple google search. http://www.wgac.colostate.edu/what-is-rape-supportive-culture

To me, rape culture is anything that in anyway attempts to justify violence against women, be it explicit or tacit.

Obvious examples include asking what a rape victim was wearing, why she was alone, why she walked home or why she didn't fight her attacker more. These questions are almost never raised when the victim of a rape is male.

In this thread, I would include posts that imply these girls were asking for it for allowing these photos to be taken. There is absolutely nothing immoral or illegal about sharing intimate photos with your lover. It is both immoral and (I believe) illegal to distribute photos of a former lover for revenge.

Jesus Christ, you managed to pick a link to an academic feminist (and in this case crazy) resource that looks to expand rape to define any act of violence against women and then takes any tenuous example from advertising as an example of rape culture!! Sorry but that's too messed up for words! Its also why I can't take sites like this seriously, I.e. I refuse to bow to clickbait designed to guilt society into providing someone's grant funding

Just to be clear so, if depictions of violence against women are rape culture in this parallel universe, what are the far more commonplace, gratuitous, and largely accepted depictions of violence against men? Should we take for example the violence against men in film as an example of an anti male misandristic rape culture too? What about the spice girl, girl power hard woman image. Rape culture too? And the notorious "boys are smelly throw rocks at them" t shirts from a fee years ago?

Because let's be clear we can find far more examples of violence against men being acceptable in media, Christ that's pretty much the 1980s box office.

Digital Solitude · 07-02-2016 04:21PM

tritium wrote: »

Jesus Christ, you managed to pick a link to an academic feminist (and in this case crazy) resource that looks to expand rape to define any act of violence against women and then takes any tenuous example from advertising as an example of rape culture!! Sorry but that's too messed up for words! Its also why I can't take sites like this seriously, I.e. I refuse to bow to clickbait designed to guilt society into providing someone's grant funding

Just to be clear so, if depictions of violence against women are rape culture in this parallel universe, what are the far more commonplace, gratuitous, and largely accepted depictions of violence against men? Should we take for example the violence against men in film as an example of an anti male misandristic rape culture too? What about the spice girl, girl power hard woman image. Rape culture too? And the notorious "boys are smelly throw rocks at them" t shirts from a fee years ago?

Because let's be clear we can find far more examples of violence against men being acceptable in media, Christ that's pretty much the 1980s box office.

Is this a joke? That clearly doesn't suit the agenda!

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 04:47PM

tritium wrote: »

Just to be clear so, if depictions of violence against women are rape culture in this parallel universe, what are the far more commonplace, gratuitous, and largely accepted depictions of violence against men? Should we take for example the violence against men in film as an example of an anti male misandristic rape culture too? What about the spice girl, girl power hard woman image. Rape culture too? And the notorious "boys are smelly throw rocks at them" t shirts from a fee years ago?

Because let's be clear we can find far more examples of violence against men being acceptable in media, Christ that's pretty much the 1980s box office.

I think you misunderstood it. It's not about depictions of violence against women, it's about the fact that imagery of violence against women is sexualised, whereas it's not with men.

PC Lackey · 07-02-2016 04:50PM

hidinginthebush wrote: »

People need to stop sharing nude pictures sent to them by people they half know.
People also need to stop taking nude photos of themselves and sending it on to people they only half know.

Now, wasn't that easy.

reported.

ignore his post. nothing to see here.

tritium · 07-02-2016 04:55PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I think you misunderstood it. It's not about depictions of violence against women, it's about the fact that imagery of violence against women is sexualised, whereas it's not with men.

Not based on what you posted. From your own link:

Rape Supportive Culture is a term or concept used to describe a culture in which sexual assault, rape, and violence is common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual assault and rape. Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape supportive culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, rape-apologism and trivializing violence against women and girls. Although this term contains the word “rape,” the concept is meant to encompass all forms of violent behavior

orubiru · 07-02-2016 05:08PM

Kev W wrote: »

Arrange these words in order

Of
Example
Rape Culture
Post
Actual
An
Your
Is

No.

What is Gallows Humour?

So, a common argument I hear is that those who think they are not contributing to Rape Culture are often contributing in a passive way.

If I don't believe that Rape Culture is a thing then my disbelief, or just my dismissive attitude, actually perpetuates Rape Culture. It's a nice Kafkatrap, for sure.

However, what if people who trivialise rape and sexual assault by grouping frivolous things, like tasteless jokes on anonymous message boards, with serious crimes are damaging the publics ability to understand the causes and effects of these crimes?

What if the result of this trivialising effect is that people are unable to effectively protect themselves or feel discouraged from seeking justice when they are victimised?

What if society can't deal with the problem of sexual assault and rape because there are too many people making a racket about daft, meaningless, jokes online?

I would say that websites such as Everyday Feminism (that you linked to in another post) contribute massively to trivialising and making a mockery of the concept of Rape Culture.

For example, when hearing about the scandals in the church, or the abuse in Rotherham, or the recent attacks in Cologne people react with outrage and anger. These could reasonably be held up as examples of Rape Culture and anger, outrage and a demand for justice are the appropriate responses.

When seeing your ludicrous post attempting to appropriate someone's daft joke into "Rape Culture" my response, and the response of others I'm sure, was just to roll my eyes and think "get a grip FFS".

So you've trivialised the concept of Rape Culture but you think it's the other poster who's done wrong? Think about it.

I'd say the ridiculous Everyday Feminism article you linked to simply ensures that people will not take mentions of rape culture seriously. Its many times more damaging than a silly comment from some random poster.

If it isn't taken seriously then surely thats a whole new problem you've created?

One eyed Jack · 07-02-2016 05:24PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Here's one of hundreds of definitions that can be found through a simple google search. http://www.wgac.colostate.edu/what-is-rape-supportive-culture

I'm only after pointing out that expecting people to go off reading something for themselves is not "raising awareness" of an issue (it's confirmation bias on your part), and you expect me to argue against someone else's perspective of this "rape culture" phenomenon, rather than you having to make me aware of what it is. Fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of "raising awareness" there.

To me, rape culture is anything that in anyway attempts to justify violence against women, be it explicit or tacit.

Violence against women then? That really isn't a pervasive phenomenon in Irish society, much less a culture of same. You're still having to make ferocious leaps to try and link all these things together, let alone any link between people who stupid comments about women, and people who commit violence against women. If that's the link you're making, then regardless of their gender, we're all guilty of violence against women. It renders the phrase "rape culture" utterly meaningless if you can't separate those people who belong to a culture, from those who don't.

Obvious examples include asking what a rape victim was wearing, why she was alone, why she walked home or why she didn't fight her attacker more. These questions are almost never raised when the victim of a rape is male.

I don't know what blogs you've been reading, or where you get your ideas, but you're wrong. Those questions are often asked of a victim of sexual violence, regardless of their gender. The only reason they seem like obvious examples to you of violence against women is because you're only attuned specifically to gender based sexual violence based on your gender, as opposed to sexual violence against a person regardless of their gender. That's called selection bias.

You're still reaching to label sexual violence against anyone as a culture, on the understanding that there is a culture which can be identified by the fact that it is built upon or promotes and perpetuates sexual violence against anyone. "Rape Culture" makes for a simplistic soundbite, but in actual fact, it has very little to do with rape, let alone any assertion or any risk of it becoming a a cultural phenomenon.

In this thread, I would include posts that imply these girls were asking for it for allowing these photos to be taken.

Which is why I pointed out that you could include anything you like in this "rape culture" idea, effectively rendering the impact of the term meaningless.

There is absolutely nothing immoral or illegal about sharing intimate photos with your lover. It is both immoral and (I believe) illegal to distribute photos of a former lover for revenge.

In Ireland it's not illegal (unless they're a child), it's just a shìtty thing to do. I don't know either if the activities of these groups actually do include sharing and distribution of "revenge porn", or is that just the latest social media phenomenon buzzword that the Irish media have picked up on to "raise awareness" of the phenomenon.

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 05:33PM

One eyed jack, if you think violence against women isn't a problem in Ireland, our conversation ends here.

I'll happily discuss an issue in depth with anyone who really wants to explore the issue, but I won't do it with someone who doesn't believe that violence against women exists as a real problem.

Ficheall · 07-02-2016 05:40PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

One eyed jack, if you think violence against women isn't a problem in Ireland, our conversation ends here.

I'll happily discuss an issue in depth with anyone who really wants to explore the issue, but I won't do it with someone who doesn't believe that violence against women exists as a real problem.

What about violence against men?

Honestly, if everyone just started using "people" instead of "men", and "people" instead of "women", I believe the internet would be a much happier place.

orubiru · 07-02-2016 05:43PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Here's one of hundreds of definitions that can be found through a simple google search. http://www.wgac.colostate.edu/what-is-rape-supportive-culture

To me, rape culture is anything that in anyway attempts to justify violence against women, be it explicit or tacit.

Obvious examples include asking what a rape victim was wearing, why she was alone, why she walked home or why she didn't fight her attacker more. These questions are almost never raised when the victim of a rape is male.

In this thread, I would include posts that imply these girls were asking for it for allowing these photos to be taken. There is absolutely nothing immoral or illegal about sharing intimate photos with your lover. It is both immoral and (I believe) illegal to distribute photos of a former lover for revenge.

Why are these questions being raised though? It's fine to say "these questions should never be raised" but are we saying that without understanding why the questions are being asked? Just a thought.

Many victims will not go to the police because they fear that they won't be taken seriously. Who's been telling them that they won't be taken seriously? The same people who tell them we live in a Rape Culture?

Rape has been considered on of the most serious crimes imaginable for thousands of years. It is explicitly forbidden in our society and no sound and rational person is attempting to justify it.

So when someone living in a society that is very much opposed to rape feels that they won't be believed or taken seriously we have to ask who's been telling them that?

"She was asking for it" or any variation on that is quite obviously going to be used as a legal defence. Isn't that the very definition of consent, "asking for it"?

Did you have consent?
Yes.
Can you explain?
Well, she was asking for it.
YOU CANT SAY THAT!

Why would the society we live in want to make a valid defence of the accused into a taboo phrase that must never be uttered?

RayM · 07-02-2016 05:46PM

Ficheall wrote: »

What about violence against men?

Honestly, if everyone just started using "people" instead of "men", and "people" instead of "women", I believe the internet would be a much happier place.

If some men didn't get so incredibly defensive whenever issues like this arise, and attempt to deflect attention away from sexual violence against women, the internet would be a far less tedious place.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 07-02-2016 05:47PM

Boys will be boys, that's what I always say.

orubiru · 07-02-2016 05:50PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

One eyed jack, if you think violence against women isn't a problem in Ireland, our conversation ends here.

I'll happily discuss an issue in depth with anyone who really wants to explore the issue, but I won't do it with someone who doesn't believe that violence against women exists as a real problem.

Violence is a problem. Everybody knows it.

We can identify and categorize types of violence but why divide the victims of violence into arbitrary groups?

If someone punches me in the face and then punches a woman in the face, whats the difference? I should be punched harder before violence against me is seen as equal to violence against a woman? How much harder?

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 06:24PM

orubiru wrote: »

Violence is a problem. Everybody knows it.

We can identify and categorize types of violence but why divide the victims of violence into arbitrary groups?

If someone punches me in the face and then punches a woman in the face, whats the difference? I should be punched harder before violence against me is seen as equal to violence against a woman? How much harder?

So you think violence against children, old people, ethnic minorities etc should never be something that is looked at specifically, because it all falls under the banner of violence? We shouldn't explore them because all violence is bad so we can only talk about it in general terms?

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 06:29PM

orubiru wrote: »

Why are these questions being raised though? It's fine to say "these questions should never be raised" but are we saying that without understanding why the questions are being asked?

Did you have consent?
Yes.
Can you explain?
Well, she was asking for it.
YOU CANT SAY THAT!

Why would the society we live in want to make a valid defence of the accused into a taboo phrase that must never be uttered?

First part: What a woman was wearing when a victim of a rape should always be considered irrelevant. There is no choice of outfit that makes it okay to force sex on someone.

Second part re: "asking for it" is usually used to mean she was asking for it because of the way she looked, or talked or flirted. If by asking for it, she was literally asking for sex, then yes, that is consent and it's obviously not rape...

Ficheall · 07-02-2016 06:40PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So you think violence against children, old people, ethnic minorities etc should never be something that is looked at specifically, because it all falls under the banner of violence?

I think we can all safely agree that raping children, old people, and ethnic minorities is bad.

tritium · 07-02-2016 06:44PM

orubiru wrote: »

Violence is a problem. Everybody knows it.

We can identify and categorize types of violence but why divide the victims of violence into arbitrary groups?

If someone punches me in the face and then punches a woman in the face, whats the difference? I should be punched harder before violence against me is seen as equal to violence against a woman? How much harder?

Unfortunately that's pretty much the default position for some commentators. I used to think it was driven by fear of having funding for services diluted but actually at this stage I think in many cases its more a subtle misandry theyre not even aware of....

RayM wrote: »

If some men didn't get so incredibly defensive whenever issues like this arise, and attempt to deflect attention away from sexual violence against women, the internet would be a far less tedious place.

Yeeeaahhh! The gender that's vastly more likely to be the victim of violence, vastly less likely to have facilities for the (broadly comparable numbers of) domestic abuse victims, and more likely to die young are getting defensive......

What a surprise, maybe some commentators should consider the above and then check their privilege.

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 06:44PM

Ficheall wrote: »

I think we can all safely agree that raping children, old people, and ethnic minorities is bad.

Glad we can agree on that much, although that wasn't my point!

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 06:46PM

tritium wrote: »

Unfortunately that's pretty much the default position for some commentators. I used to think it was driven by fear of having funding for services diluted but actually at this stage I think in many cases its more a subtle misandry theyre not even aware of....

Yeeeaahhh! The gender that's vastly more likely to be the victim of violence, vastly less likely to have facilities for the (broadly comparable numbers of) domestic abuse victims, and more likely to die young are getting defensive......

What a surprise, maybe some commentators should consider the above and then check their privilege.

While men are more likely to be the victims, whether victims are male or female, the perpetrator is more likely to be male.

RayM · 07-02-2016 06:47PM

tritium wrote: »

Yeeeaahhh! The gender that's vastly more likely to be the victim of violence, vastly less likely to have facilities for the (broadly comparable numbers of) domestic abuse victims, and more likely to die young are getting defensive......

What a surprise, maybe some commentators should consider the above and then check their privilege.

Yes, this is exactly the sort of tiresome shit I was referring to. Every single thread about women being harassed or abused by men ultimately descends into this kind of whataboutery.

orubiru · 07-02-2016 06:58PM

RayM wrote: »

Yes, this is exactly the sort of tiresome shit I was referring to. Every single thread about women being harassed or abused by men ultimately descends into this kind of whataboutery.

So you are surprised that in the face of blatant imbalance, obvious bias and inequality people often turn round and say "well what about"?

What if this so called "whataboutery" is just people trying to give perspective or be realistic? You're just saying "I'm not interested in balance"?

Fat Christy · 07-02-2016 06:59PM

I just read the background story to this, as I had no idea what revenge porn was or what this was about.

Jesus. H. Christ.

That's not banter. That's just being an absolute dick.

orubiru · 07-02-2016 07:01PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

First part: What a woman was wearing when a victim of a rape should always be considered irrelevant. There is no choice of outfit that makes it okay to force sex on someone.

Second part re: "asking for it" is usually used to mean she was asking for it because of the way she looked, or talked or flirted. If by asking for it, she was literally asking for sex, then yes, that is consent and it's obviously not rape...

First part: That's not what I asked. Why is the question "what were you wearing" being asked in the first place? How can you say a question is irrelevant when you don't know why the question is being asked?

Second part: Who is saying "she was asking for it"? People defending the accused? The appropriateness of saying "she was asking for it" depends entirely on who is saying it and their reasons for doing so.

We seem to just be imagining faceless, nameless, people asking inappropriate questions of victims without considering specifics.

Are you sure folks aren't making way too many assumptions because a large part of their worldview is tied up with this "Rape Culture"?

If someone, who is not a defense lawyer, is using "what were you wearing" as a way to justify or forgive or excuse rape then I am with you, it's totally horrific and unacceptable. If we don't know why it's been asked then I don't see how we can pass judgement on the appropriateness of the questions.

I think to flat out say that even the asking of such questions is evidence of Rape Culture can kind of blind you to the reality of these situations. I am not going to go into anecdotes here but people should consider that the "Rape Culture" proposed here is not a true reflection of our society.

thattequilagirl · 07-02-2016 07:06PM

orubiru wrote: »

If someone, who is not a defense lawyer, is using "what were you wearing" as a way to justify or forgive or excuse rape then I am with you, it's totally horrific and unacceptable. If we don't know why it's been asked then I don't see how we can pass judgement on the appropriateness of the questions.

I think to flat out say that even the asking of such questions is evidence of Rape Culture can kind of blind you to the reality of these situations. I am not going to go into anecdotes here but people should consider that the "Rape Culture" proposed here is not a true reflection of our society.

Can you give me an example of a time when asking that question of a rape victim would be appropriate? Because I genuinely can't think of one.

tritium · 07-02-2016 07:10PM

RayM wrote: »

Yes, this is exactly the sort of tiresome shit I was referring to. Every single thread about women being harassed or abused by men ultimately descends into this kind of whataboutery.

Seriously, you must realise you've lost the argument when you're screaming whataboutery at others after about a derailed thread about alleged Facebook posting that was shoehorned into a discussion on rape culture....

UCD Ag science banter

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