UCD Ag science banter

Peregrine

There's been an off-topic argument going on for a few pages now. Get back on the topic of what is reported to have happened at UCD.

Here's an article to help you along: http://utv.ie/News/2016/02/05/UCD-respond-to-allegations-of-leaked-explicit-images-of-students-53559

Mod

RayM

I think it's a shame that discussions about men behaving badly towards women always seem to descend into arguments about perceived 'biases' and 'imbalances' and 'yeah, but what about...' etc. It unintentionally does men a huge disservice - because the vast, vast majority of us actually agree that the kind of behaviour exhibited by those 200 students is abhorrent, and not just a case of 'harmless banter' or 'lads being lads'.


Anyway, that Facebook group is part of a wider culture within the college. I've overheard lots and lots of unpleasant 'laddish' conversations in UCD (particularly in the Ag Science building, but elsewhere too), so I'm not one bit surprised by any of this. A year ago, a member of a similar group (minus the revenge porn allegations, but with a bit of casual racism thrown in) was <snip>. A couple of weeks ago, the Economics Society invited someone who is famous only for being a misogynist troll to speak unchallenged on the topic of whether "political correctness has gone too far". It really hasn't... not in UCD, anyway.

One eyed Jack

RayM wrote: »

I think it's a shame that discussions about men behaving badly towards women always seem to descend into arguments about perceived 'biases' and 'imbalances' and 'yeah, but what about...' etc. It unintentionally does men a huge disservice - because the vast, vast majority of us actually agree that the kind of behaviour exhibited by those 200 students is abhorrent, and not just a case of 'harmless banter' or 'lads being lads'.

By it's very nature, a discussion regarding male perpetrated violence against women is inherently biased. I personally don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with any attempt to tar men as a group with the perception that we're all violent against women, when as you point out, the vast, vast majority of men are disgusted by male perpetrated violence against women. Being of the opinion that the behaviours and attitudes of up to 200 male students is in any way representative of the attitudes and behaviours of the vast, vast majority of male students in just UCD alone, is just ridiculous IMO. It's a gross generalisation and of course people are going to have an issue with that assertion.

Anyway, that Facebook group is part of a wider culture within the college. I've overheard lots and lots of unpleasant 'laddish' conversations in UCD (particularly in the Ag Science building, but elsewhere too), so I'm not one bit surprised by any of this. A year ago, a member of a similar group (minus the revenge porn allegations, but with a bit of casual racism thrown in) was <snip>.

Lots of allegations, very little in the way of substantive evidence. <snip>

A couple of weeks ago, the Economics Society invited someone who is famous only for being a misogynist troll to speak unchallenged on the topic of whether "political correctness has gone too far". It really hasn't... not in UCD, anyway.

Of course political correctness can never go far enough when there are people who exist whose thinking is politically incorrect. I'm just not sure the phrase "politically correct" is actually useful or means anything any more when nobody can agree on what it means, rather like the fluffy all-encompassing phrase "sexual violence", which it appears seems to include what I would have before simply referred to as scumbag behaviour. It's not politically correct, but it's an apt description.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Don't post any accusations where the accused can be identified in real life. Not mentioning sames simply isn't enough.

RayM

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Mod:

Don't post any accusations where the accused can be identified in real life. Not mentioning sames simply isn't enough.

Sorry, I can see how that might have looked like a random, dodgy accusation. I should have included a link, rather than just throwing it out there. He actually owned up, apologised, etc, and then won the election.

orubiru

RayM wrote: »

I think it's a shame that discussions about men behaving badly towards women always seem to descend into arguments about perceived 'biases' and 'imbalances' and 'yeah, but what about...' etc. It unintentionally does men a huge disservice - because the vast, vast majority of us actually agree that the kind of behaviour exhibited by those 200 students is abhorrent, and not just a case of 'harmless banter' or 'lads being lads'.

That's fine but don't you think that, in this instance anyway, framing the discussion as "men vs women" from the very beginning is a pretty bad starting point?

What if the problem is with society and our usage of digital photography and our relationship to the internet? Why would gender need to come in to that discussion?

I think we can all agree that the behavior of these guys is unacceptable and that they should be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the law, right? OK.

So, surely the "meat" of the discussion lies in exploring the legal and moral issues related to taking photos of people without consent and posting them online for whatever reason. It doesn't have to be a nude photo specifically.

I think it's more of a betrayal, morally speaking, to post an extremely private photo for everyone to gawk at but I think most folks would be upset to even find that photos of them doing everyday things are doing the rounds on the web.

What about this? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/11/hot-dudes-reading-instagram-proves-books-are-sexy_n_6656406.html

So, what I'm seeing here is photos taken and circulated without the consent of the people in the photographs, right? It seems to be pretty much accepted in these circumstances though, doesn't it?

Check this out.

As the creators told HuffPost, "Reading is fundamentally hot, and who doesn't like to fantasize a little bit about the sexy stranger we spot sitting across from us?" We can't argue with that.

So I don't think we can say that it's fundamentally a "men vs women" thing. (It's also why I am quick to dismiss mentions of "Rape Culture" here)

Where are we drawing the lines? Pics of someone reading a book is fine to post anywhere because "who doesn't like to fantasize a little bit about the sexy stranger we spot sitting across from us"?

How much distance is there between posting pics of a "sexy stranger" for everyone on Instagram and posting pics of your ex on a private Facebook page?

If my ex gave me permission to take an "intimate" photo but clearly told me not to share it then it is WAY out of order for me to share that photo. I think we'd all agree,

If I take a photo of some guy reading without his permission and I want to post it online, is it OK for me to do that?

OK, one is socially acceptable and the other isn't but at what point was the line crossed?

We are inevitably heading for problems when we have grey areas like this and all we've got to say about it is "well this is just another example of how Men...". It's actually not very constructive at all.

If we take social obligations out of the equation, from a legal point of view, who actually owns these photos? What are we legally allowed to do with photographs once we have ownership of them?

If there had been a prosecution even if it failed and you looked forward ten or fifteen years.

There victim would have got and still get a lot of sympathy for what happened to them and while it would be a pain to have to tell anyone they are heading in to relationship with, they are always going to receive sympathy for what happened to them.


While the perpetrator would always be viewed as the dim immature creepy eejit who put the photo online. It would affect their future relationships their career everything.

Ireland is a small country with a multitude of casual connections let alone the information goggling some one's name will throw up.

Which lead to the point that how in god name did someone get to at least 18 having received fourteen years of eduction and not have any idea of boundaries and the consequence of their behaviour, or maybe they did understand boundaries but has a self justifying belief that they were entitled to revenge.

smash

The revelation is the most recent example of the continued prevalence of a harmful and derogatory ‘lad culture’ amongst the student body in UCD.

Source: http://collegetribune.ie/ucd-facebook-chat-rating-and-sharing-girls-photos-who-they-have-slept-with-highlights-toxic-lad-culture/

Of course it is... :rolleyes:

thattequilagirl

To those wondering why this is framed as men vs women, please read this

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7787

The most shocking fact in it is that between 1996 and 2005, 109 women were murdered in Ireland. Every single one of them was murdered by a man, with half of them being a current or ex-partner.

(Based on solved crimes)

A though on this.

There is a saying to describe someone with no cop on. if it was raining soup they would be out side with a fork.

Now on that Facebook group you will have some who looked at the pictures of the girls or is reading what is being said about the girls, however they will never post and they wont have joined with their personal Facebook account. They do this because they then to have a sixth sense about not doing anything stupid that could get themselves in to trouble.

Are they just as they as Culpable as punting up the pictures or posting.

orubiru

thattequilagirl wrote: »

To those wondering why this is framed as men vs women, please read this

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7787

The most shocking fact in it is that between 1996 and 2005, 109 women were murdered in Ireland. Every single one of them was murdered by a man, with half of them being a current or ex-partner.

(Based on solved crimes)

What % of men in Ireland have murdered someone? What % of men in Ireland have murdered a woman?

THAT is why it should never be framed as "Men vs Women".

To be clear, when you boil this down to "Men vs Women" you basically lose any ability to have a nuanced discussion.

How can you hold 2 million men responsible for the crimes of 109 men? This seems reasonable to you?

Now, if being male was a causative factor in the crimes then my view would be different. If the prevailing attitude was "i am a man and so I must kill someone" then I would be on your side here. That's not what's going on here though. I am saying that gender (just like race) is not a causative factor in whether or not someone will become a murderer.

I'd propose that environmental or economic factors have a far greater influence, do you disagree?

My, very rough, estimate is that 0.0000545% of men living in Ireland have killed a woman in the last decade. There's tarring everyone with the same brush and then there's taking that to extreme levels.

That's why people will say "not all men". You are taking the actions of less than a ten thousandth of a percent of the population and trying to map it to, or blame it on, the attitudes of 50% of the population.

Imagine a stadium in Ireland with 100,000 men in it. Statistically, there's a good chance that ONE of them has killed someone. There's around a 25% chance that the victim was female. You want to tell all of those people that "Men" have a problem with killing women? Ridiculous.

The average man in Ireland is about ten times more likely to kill himself than he is to kill another person. Think about that.

orubiru

mariaalice wrote: »

A though on this.

There is a saying to describe someone with no cop on. if it was raining soup they would be out side with a fork.

Now on that Facebook group you will have some who looked at the pictures of the girls or is reading what is being said about the girls, however they will never post and they wont have joined with their personal Facebook account. They do this because they then to have a sixth sense about not doing anything stupid that could get themselves in to trouble.

Are they just as they as Culpable as punting up the pictures or posting.

I think they are culpable in the sense that they really should have been reporting it to Facebook and having the page taken down.

They might not be responsible for the content appearing on the page but they have a responsibility to report it, in my opinion.

Much like we are responsible for reporting inappropriate posts on here. A community works best when it is able to effectively police itself. That obviously hasn't happened in this case.

silverharp

thattequilagirl wrote: »

To those wondering why this is framed as men vs women, please read this

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7787

The most shocking fact in it is that between 1996 and 2005, 109 women were murdered in Ireland. Every single one of them was murdered by a man, with half of them being a current or ex-partner.

(Based on solved crimes)

If you say men v women you might as well say "men bad women good", It's a moronic attitude. there are always going to be people that are "evil" , be it bad genes, bad upbringing,addictions etc. Its better to equip people with the skills to avoid bumping into these people in real life instead of trying to shame a whole gender over something that specifically here looks like longer odds than a lottery win

orubiru

silverharp wrote: »

If you say men v women you might as well say "men bad women good", It's a moronic attitude. there are always going to be people that are "evil" , be it bad genes, bad upbringing,addictions etc. Its better to equip people with the skills to avoid bumping into these people in real life instead of trying to shame a whole gender over something that specifically here looks like longer odds than a lottery win

This is something I was going to bring up specifically relating to this.

This Facebook "revenge porn" situation, to me, is a symptom of a society that doesn't tolerate bullying but that also doesn't teach people how to avoid or deal with bullies. Over time bullies become more and more discreet and better at staying "under the radar" but victims never become better equipped to protect or defend themselves. Sure, you can go to the authorities after the fact but the damage is already done. What if you were given the tools to stop bullies in their tracks?

Most online harassment, revenge porn, all that kind of stuff is akin to, probably an escalation of, high school bullying. The victim is powerless to stop it and once the bullying is exposed it is roundly condemned. However, the problem for the bully is not how to abandon their wicked ways and become a good person. The problem for the bully is how to not get caught next time. Anonymous message boards, fake twitter accounts, bogus Facebook profiles are the perfect cover.

Go head and make "victim blaming" the ultimate taboo and you've created a bullies paradise. Society is simultaneously teaching potential victims that they don't need to learn to protect themselves whilst giving the bullies the tools they need to effectively and anonymously carry on being horrible people.

The proposed solution is for groups to somehow identify and shame, or ostracize, the potential bullies in their midst. Shaming and ostracizing are also bullying tactics though aren't they? You are asking folk who aren't bullies to think like bullies so they can weed out bullies who have become experts at hiding their bullying.

The best you can hope for is that people will report the bullying and stop it. Unfortunately, the damage may already be done at that point.

So when someone says "it's men doing this" the vast majority of men are saying "not me" because the offense being committed seems so abhorrent to them.

The actual perpetrators though? Well, they are being given further anonymity under the umbrella of "Men" aren't they?

Shurimgreat

Fail to see the difference between this kind of behaviour and that of someone who goes around secretly photographing women up their skirts.

One is seen as a pervert. The other seen as just one of the "lads".

Irish "society" is going down the tubes in my view.

upandcumming

Shurimgreat wrote: »

One is seen as a pervert. The other seen as just one of the "lads".

By whom exactly? The 200 arseholes? I don't know anyone that sees it like that.

Shurimgreat

upandcumming wrote: »

By whom exactly? The 200 arseholes? I don't know anyone that sees it like that.

You might be outraged. The guys in UCD who did this are probably viewed as "legends" by many of their peers (whether you like it or not).

Last year it was something bad. This year it was worse. Next year it will be worse again. Each class in college, not just in UCD, seem intent on outdoing the previous years in terms of debauchery. And like I said its every college.

On the bullying aspect, I know someone who works with young people

The most effective way to stop the bulling.

You have the bully and the bullied however you also have others around the situation who are uncomfortable with what they are witnessing but they don't say or do anything.

The key is to empower the who are uncomfortably but not saying or doing anything, empowering them to tackle the bully. Its not shaming the bully its letting the bully know that the person they are bullying has support and what they the bully are doing is unacceptable.

Shurimgreat

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You might be outraged. The guys in UCD who did this are probably viewed as "legends" by many of their peers (whether you like it or not).

Last year it was something bad. This year it was worse. Next year it will be worse again. Each class in college, not just in UCD, seem intent on outdoing the previous years in terms of debauchery. And like I said its every college.

I am sure it will do their linked in profile a power of good when they are actual adults in the world of work.

trainee farmer

As a former ag student, it sickens me to see the headlines about there being 200 AG students involved.

Granted, the majority were ag students, but from what I have heard from members of the group, it was students of "real science" (as some of ye posh knocks like to call it), business and arts that shared most of the pictures.

But of course once ags are involved in any controversy, the whole school becomes the root and cause of it.

People need to grow up and read the facts before they throw around accusations.

(P.S. I completely condemn the sharing of the photos)

The a solution to this sort of issue in colleges.

The students union to invite a director from some big management consultancy, accountancy firm etc, to kindly explain that any whif of that sort of issue = not a hope of a graduate position, when the perpetrators see their future careers potentially dispersing in front of their eyes they would soon stop and it would stop the issuer arising in the future.

tritium

thattequilagirl wrote: »

To those wondering why this is framed as men vs women, please read this

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7787

The most shocking fact in it is that between 1996 and 2005, 109 women were murdered in Ireland. Every single one of them was murdered by a man, with half of them being a current or ex-partner.

(Based on solved crimes)

Wow, quite a leap from a largely as yet unevidenced allegation about conversation (and potentially pictures of unknown content) on a Facebook group to murder rates

But since you raise it here's why it shouldn't be framed that way...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html

Essentially, against a global average of being 3 times more likely to be a homicide victim as a man, in Ireland you're 7 times more likely, with no particularly high homicide rate overall for Ireland. Actually, maybe we *should* frame by gender and instead ask the more material question of why isn't the rate our men are being killed a national crisis?

RayM

trainee farmer wrote: »

As a former ag student, it sickens me to see the headlines about there being 200 AG students involved.

Granted, the majority were ag students, but from what I have heard from members of the group, it was students of "real science" (as some of ye posh knocks like to call it), business and arts that shared most of the pictures.

But of course once ags are involved in any controversy, the whole school becomes the root and cause of it.

People need to grow up and read the facts before they throw around accusations.

(P.S. I completely condemn the sharing of the photos)

You know people who are members of the group? Have you reported this to UCD or to the Gardai? And if not, why not?

upandcumming

RayM wrote:

You know people who are members of the group? Have you reported this to UCD or to the Gardai? And if not, why not?

There is no onus on this poster to report anyone for anything to anyone.

AnonoBoy

trainee farmer wrote: »

Granted, the majority were ag students, but from what I have heard from members of the group, it was students of "real science" (as some of ye posh knocks like to call it), business and arts that shared most of the pictures.

So you're saying the members of the group you know did it but the bigger boys did it worse?

That's a pathetic whining excuse on their part.

But then again not too surprising considering what the groups' purpose was.

Their group gets outed and they all go into defensive mode and start trying to paint others as the real villains. They sound like children trying not to get in trouble for being caught smoking round the back of the bike sheds.

RayM

upandcumming wrote: »

There is no onus on this poster to report anyone for anything to anyone.

If they have information, there absolutely is. Especially if they claim to condemn the behaviour of those involved.

upandcumming

Shurimgreat wrote:

You might be outraged. The guys in UCD who did this are probably viewed as "legends" by many of their peers (whether you like it or not).

Where are these people that are seeing these idiots as legends?

It has nothing to do with me liking it or not. I don't know anyone that sees these clams as legends. In fact all I have seen is people, in and out of 3rd level education, condemning what happened.

Shurimgreat wrote:

Last year it was something bad. This year it was worse. Next year it will be worse again. Each class in college, not just in UCD, seem intent on outdoing the previous years in terms of debauchery. And like I said its every college.

Some leap to say that is happening in every college!

AnonoBoy

upandcumming wrote: »

Some leap to say that is happening in every college!

Not sure about every college but I'd say the chances are slim that there's not similar things going on in other colleges.

I hope I'm wrong but while the accents might be different, douchebags don't change that much from place to place.

tritium

RayM wrote: »

You know people who are members of the group? Have you reported this to UCD or to the Gardai? And if not, why not?

Do we know if anything was actually done that was either a)illegal or b) a breach of college regulations. So far there seems to a lot of allegations based on very slight facts. Can anyone summarise what if verifiably out there on this?

haro124

I'm a UCD student. Nobody seems to know anything about this, even all the Ag Students. 200 people is a HUGE number of students, you'd think that somebody would know about it. Supposedly just a joke on YikYak that went too far