The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 04:38PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

Brady is the GOAT at QB .. I don't think there is a case to be made for anyone to be better than him at this stage but look it's all opinion so it's not worth the paper it's written on. And I am absolutely not a Patriots or Brady fan, in fact I despise both.

As regards WR, Rice is definitely in the conversation but the WR crop that are currently playing are going to get very close. Megatron has to be there or there abouts, He's on track to be just as good and is like 100 yards shy of Rice at this stage. Also Rice had some quality throwing him the ball and Megatron has Matt Stafford, who is good but will never be in the Young/Montana class.

But the WR is far more complicated by the fact that right now we could have 3 of the greatest WR's ever, playing at the same time in Antonio Brown, Megatron, and Julio Jones (who's career numbers per game is the highest ever in the NFL)

The thing is, Montana and Rice played at a time when the rules were not nearly as much in their favour - stats are bloated now, and that has to be taken into account. This year 12 QBs went over 4,000 yards, and 17 had over 250 yds/game. Last year that was 11 and 15 respectively. In 1984 that was 3 and 4; in 1994 it was 3 and 3.

WR stats are also largely inflated as a result (not as much as QBs though, since the ball gets spread around more than in previous eras), yet a full decade after the [awful] 2004 rule changes the difference between Jerry Rice in 1st and then 2nd on all time receiving yards is the same as the difference between 2nd and... wait for it... 60th!! :eek:

Megatron, Julio and Brown would need to average about 1,500 yards a season from here until they are 37 or so to match that... even with the inflated numbers of today (and them not having the same issues about the ball getting spread everywhere as much as other WRs; those three are targeted a lot). In terms of matching Rices 197 TDs, all three would need to play well into their 40s to match it at their current paces.

And beyond just bulk stats, looking at peaks, Rice was All Pro 11 straight times, 10 of which were as a first teamer. That is remarkable, especially considering the late 80s to early/mid 90s was one of the best eras for WRs in NFL history. He also got 2nd team again in 2002 when he was 40. On top of this, he was a two time offensive player of the year. No other WR has ever won offensive player of the year, even once!

For a lot of people, myself possibly included (and by the NFL's official list), he is not just the best WR of all time but simply the best player of all time.

A major hang up of mine though is that the same has to be done in reverse for DBs, the likes of Ed Reed, Woodson and Champ Bailey (and Sherman at the rate he is going). Those guys perform in much, much more difficult circumstances than the likes of Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Mel Blount etc ever did and really deserve recognition for it. I get a bit of a chuckle whenever I read nostalgists talking about some of those more 'hard man' DBs from way back when and "if they were in the league today, they'd... they'd... they'd..." They'd get flagged left, right and centre is what they'd get.

Though Deion Sanders' game would translate excellently to today, by most accounts.

Hazys · 12-01-2016 04:40PM

JCTO wrote: »

The gloves players wear today are better than stickum without the mess. Stickum is also not as great as people make it out to be. Be also naive to think Rice was the only one doing it back then. Probably why he had no issue admitting it.

For me its just the hypocrisy of Rice, that is laughable. Again not a major deal for me but if he wants to get on his high horse on Deflate Gate, he better be able to take the same abuse back when he is called a Cheater by the standard he set.

He obviously had an issue admitting it because he backtracked on his comments immediately saying stickem wasn't illegal at the time (which it was) and then he got into a massive twitter war with people trolling him throwing his toys out of the pram.

An all time great WR but a total idiot in real life.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 04:41PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Ah here. Montana is certainly at least "in the conversation", you can argue it whatever way you want.

And megatron is a long, long way off what Jerry Rice achieved in an era where WR's could actually be hit without drawing penalties.

Brilliant and all as Megatron was for a few years Rice was phenomenal for 20 years. His numbers are staggering, no one is even close to his yards or reception totals.

Rice has double the amount of career receiving yards as Johnson. Double. (22,000 to 11,000) More than double the amount of TD's and more than double the amount of receptions.

Megatron, Brown, Jones etc are nowhere near the greatest of all time at receiver.

I think Brown might wiggle his way into the periphery of the conversation, injuries notwithstanding and if he doesn't get in a QB situation like Larry Fitz found himself post-Warner. Doubt he'll be able to be seriously argued against Rice, but the guy is very slippery, extremely smooth in his routes/running motion and smart as hell - all things that tend to translate to very long careers at the position.

Much as I love Julio, I think he will be the type to drop off with his athleticism and age come his early-to-mid 30s.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 04:53PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

And what has any of that to do with admitting using HGH/stickum in the comparison I was making?

Because both Rice with stickum and the Pats with spygate were guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Both can try to claim ignorance of the rules, but both were clearly in breach.

"We didn't admit it so we're not as guilty, despite being found guilty" lines of reasoning are laughable, is what I'm saying.

And what has any of that to do with me or the point of comparison I was making?

Because your comparison was based on the assumption that someone has to admit guilt to be guilty, or that they are less guilty so long as they never admit it, which is simply incorrect.

And what cheating did Brady do?

So Brady did not benefit from coaches knowing what plays were likely to be called? And given how closely he and BB have worked through their career, I have a very, very, very hard time believing he was unaware of this. As in a 'OJ is innocent' type of hard time.

He wasn't involved in Spygate, and an independent minded judge ripped the NFL's case/evidence during proceedings and eventually ruled against the NFL.

How come the punishments stood then?

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 04:54PM

Hazys wrote: »

An all time great WR but a total idiot in real life.

Also known as 'Sapp-itis'

12-01-2016 05:19PM

As a matter of curiosity, did stickum not leave any residue on the ball itself? You'd have thought it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to catch Rice and others, I mean even if it left nothing on the ball the old shaking hands test might have produced a positive.

adrian522 · 12-01-2016 05:25PM

It was probably treated a bit like HGH now, everyone is doing it but nobody cares.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 05:27PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Because your comparison was based on the assumption that someone has to admit guilt to be guilty, or that they are less guilty so long as they never admit it, which is simply incorrect.

Woah woah woah. That's not what I was saying at all. So we can park that. My only intent on the comparison of HGH/stickum and someone admitting it was on the basis of a stat, nothing else.

Billy86 wrote: »

So Brady did not benefit from coaches knowing what plays were likely to be called? And given how closely he and BB have worked through their career, I have a very, very, very hard time believing he was unaware of this. As in a 'OJ is innocent' type of hard time.

And Rice, who you've no problem with, didn't benefit, or Montana didn't know? And yet you don't mention stickum in your praise of Rice, but can't help yourself when it comes to Brady?
You're crossing that double standard line you created earlier.

Billy86 wrote: »

How come the punishments stood then?

What punishment stood for Brady?

JCTO · 12-01-2016 05:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As a matter of curiosity, did stickum not leave any residue on the ball itself? You'd have thought it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to catch Rice and others, I mean even if it left nothing on the ball the old shaking hands test might have produced a positive.

If they put too much of it on their hands it could yes. That is the thing WR and RB used stickum back then. RB even liked it as when they tucked the ball it gave them better grip. Id say the use of it was rampant hence why no one cared. You got to figure the refs noticed it on the balls also.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 12-01-2016 06:11PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Ah here. Montana is certainly at least "in the conversation", you can argue it whatever way you want.

And megatron is a long, long way off what Jerry Rice achieved in an era where WR's could actually be hit without drawing penalties.

Brilliant and all as Megatron was for a few years Rice was phenomenal for 20 years. His numbers are staggering, no one is even close to his yards or reception totals.

Rice has double the amount of career receiving yards as Johnson. Double. (22,000 to 11,000) More than double the amount of TD's and more than double the amount of receptions.

Megatron, Brown, Jones etc are nowhere near the greatest of all time at receiver.

I'm not really sure how you can argue Montana over Brady, believe me I've tried to argue against Brady several times but with the same amount of superbowl rings, Mvp's then you sort of have to go to stats and unfortunately Brady blows him away at that point but again as with any GOAT conversation it's only really opinion because the game was different then and now. (Still Brady's TD's to Int and passer rating are incredible on their own.)

Rice played 11 seasons more than Megatron at this point, Megatron will be close to that 22,000 mark by the time he hangs them up if he steers clear of serious injury.

Brown and Julio are two of the best athlete's I've ever seen. I'll give them time to develop their own case for GOAT too early now but I'm just looking at their production now as so elite that god only knows what they will do over the next decade but personally I think they'll be "in the conversation" as you mentioned.

adrian522 · 12-01-2016 06:17PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

I'm not really sure how you can argue Montana over Brady, believe me I've tried to argue against Brady several times but with the same amount of superbowl rings, Mvp's then you sort of have to go to stats and unfortunately Brady blows him away at that point but again as with any GOAT conversation it's only really opinion because the game was different then and now. (Still Brady's TD's to Int and passer rating are incredible on their own.)

Rice played 11 seasons more than Megatron at this point, Megatron will be close to that 22,000 mark by the time he hangs them up if he steers clear of serious injury.

Brown and Julio are two of the best athlete's I've ever seen. I'll give them time to develop their own case for GOAT too early now but I'm just looking at their production now as so elite that god only knows what they will do over the next decade but personally I think they'll be "in the conversation" as you mentioned.

The Montana/Brady debate is very close, I don't know how you could argue differently. Montana and Walsh changed the way the game is played completely. You can argue stats all night if you wanted to but there really is little to choose between them, even if Brady is playing in an era much more suited to passing the ball while Montana had the advantage of playing in an era pre-free agency.

While that one is close, Calvin Johnson might be a borderline top 10 receiver, he is nowhere near Rice. He is already talking about retiring this season. He won't be close to 22,000 and nor will anyone currently playing the game.

Brown and Jones maybe great athletes but both are in their early to mid 20's. If they both keep up their current pace until they are 40, they still won't eclipse Rice.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 06:18PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Woah woah woah. That's not what I was saying at all. So we can park that. My only intent on the comparison of HGH/stickum and someone admitting it was on the basis of a stat, nothing else.

Apologies - your initial response was getting involved in an argument between Adrian and Corvus or NotYourYear who seem of the opinion that Brady is absolutely the best of all time, while this incident means Rice can absolutely not be the best of all time, so we seem to have got wires crossed on context.

And Rice, who you've no problem with, didn't benefit, or Montana didn't know? And yet you don't mention stickum in your praise of Rice, but can't help yourself when it comes to Brady?
You're crossing that double standard line you created earlier.

I said for me both are the GOAT or arguable GOAT in their positions - stickum, videotaping, etc does not have an impact or significant impact in this for me. I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that I'm applying a double standard, because I don't recall saying these controversies have hurt Brady's standing for me.

What punishment stood for Brady?

Are you confusing Spygate with Deflategate, re. the judge?

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman · 12-01-2016 06:24PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Brown and Jones maybe great athletes but both are in their early to mid 20's. If they both keep up their current pace until they are 40, they still won't eclipse Rice.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over this but Julio is averaging 90 yards a game that's 14 yards more than Rice, if he continues that pace until he's 40 he's have accumulated 27000 yards. That wont happen as it's simply unsustainable but Julio is a freak athlete and if he keeps going for another 10 years until he's 36 given the current game and barring any bad injuries he will put up some serious numbers.

Of course this is all hypothetical, if something happened to Matt Ryan and he ended up with a team who cant throw the ball that will go out the window

And don't get me wrong here either I personally think Rice is the greatest WR of all time as of now but I think that the game is as Billy already said making it easier for these big WR's now and I think like his single season record someone will catch his current 22,000 mark

j8wk2feszrnpao · 12-01-2016 06:54PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Are you confusing Spygate with Deflategate, re. the judge?

I left out "in Deflatgate" after "and". Ahhh, I really dislike using my phone after the ease of the PC for the majority of the day.

Ah look, I'm kinda done on this anyway. I'm on a dose of antibiotics after being sick for a while, so I'm gonna sign out till tomorrow. Later guys.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 07:10PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

And don't get me wrong here either I personally think Rice is the greatest WR of all time as of now but I think that the game is as Billy already said making it easier for these big WR's now and I think like his single season record someone will catch his current 22,000 mark

It's possible, but someone would likely need to enter the league very young and his the ground running - the big numbers can be matched, but in tandem with longevity it is a major ask, especially factoring chances of injuries.

Essentially they would need to average about 1,400 yards a season for a 12 years, at which point they would be 33 on 16,800 yards. Then they would need to average 1,100 yards all the way up to age 37 to have them on 20,000 yards. Then they would need to stick around for the remaining 3,000 yards which would likely take them into their 40s.

This is in an ideal situation too, as Julio's 93.1 yds/game is 1,440 a year (if he were never, ever injured, though he has missed 15 games with injury already in his career). Including injuries he averages 1,210 a season. In other words would need to keep up that pace until he is 39 to beat out Rice.

By contrast, while Rice has less yards per game than Julio in his first 12 years (87.2) he missed zero games and so had a higher yards per season average (1,365).

All records are there to be broken (I remember Kevin & Nick way back on Sky jokingly saying "only 120 to go!" for Marino's record after Favre's 300th TD for example, as if it would never happen) but Rice's is almost certain to be among the very, very hardest.

Amazing that apart from 1997 where he missed almost the full year, Rice never missed a single game in his whole career, to the point that he played 17 games in his last year! :pac (iirc, the Raiders traded him to Seattle on a Sunday night/Monday, and he played for them within 24 hours for two games in one week... could be wrong there but it rings a vague bell for me).

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 07:20PM

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

I'm not really sure how you can argue Montana over Brady, believe me I've tried to argue against Brady several times but with the same amount of superbowl rings, Mvp's then you sort of have to go to stats and unfortunately Brady blows him away at that point but again as with any GOAT conversation it's only really opinion because the game was different then and now. (Still Brady's TD's to Int and passer rating are incredible on their own.)

Got some bits to do so going to be brief and lazy on this one... Brady has played from 2001-15, Montana played from 1979-1994; two incredibly different eras, yet Brady only has a 4.1 better passer rating (96.4 vs 92.3). Montana had the pre free agency advantage on the other hand, but the fact is they are/were both so good and for so long that it's hard to even fathom putting anyone above them.

adrian522 · 12-01-2016 07:38PM

The other thing about WR's nowadays is that a team will likely have 3 WR's and a TE looking for targets as well as a RB. While there is more passing done now the targets are also spread around a lot more.

I don't see Rice's yardage or TD records being touched by any of this generation of receivers.

eagle eye · 12-01-2016 07:38PM

There is a serious amount of rubbish in this post but anyhow....

Billy86 wrote: »

Not admitting guilt when it is absolutely clear beyond the point of being able to deny it with a straight face does not at all, in any way, absolve one's guilt. There is a reason why in the legal system, if anything it tends to lead to a stronger punishment if found guilty, which the Patriots absolutely were regarding Spygate.

What do you know about Spygate? The Patriots were guilty, yes, but almost every other team was at the same thing. It was the Patriots that the NFL commissioner decided to go after over it.

AND I also decided to involve Clay Matthews.

'I'm a Green Bay fan and I'm throwing you a bone here. Look I'm not biased in any way!!!'

Though involving the Pats stems from a NE fan who if I recall is strongly of the opinion that Brady is the GOAT essentially claiming "cheating is cheating is cheating and automatically eliminates someone from being the GOAT", which comes across as quite the double standard.

Double Standard? How the hell is it a double standard. The Patriots haven't done anything that other teams haven't done as well. The only issue the Patriots have is consistent winning seasons and being the dominant franchise in the NFL over the last fifteen years. As a result of their success they are constantly under the microscope from the media and people who just don't like winning franchises.

If someone thinks it diminishes both (Pats & Rice) or neither, that's grand. I just don't get how someone can say it diminishes Rice out of the GOAT discussion while also claiming Brady is the GOAT despite all else. EDIT: Personally I think Rice is the GOAT WR with ease (though Moss was more talented), and Brady is likely in a tie with Joe Montana for GOAT QB (though Rodgers, Young, and Otto Graham are/were arguably more talented). GOAT factoring in consistency, longevity, winnings (not just 'rings'), leadership and a number of other factors.

Rice made a decision to knowingly cheat. When has Brady done that?

If you are talking double standards then how about Montana and Young lose out too because they both had the benefit of a cheating player?

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 07:52PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Rice made a decision to knowingly cheat. When has Brady done that?

Again, given how closely him and Bill have worked together through the years, Brady not knowing about it is about as believable as OJ being innocent.

If you are talking double standards then how about Montana and Young lose out too because they both had the benefit of a cheating player?

Sure, why not? But then again how about you focus on what I actually said which is that neither the taping nor the stickum has much of any baring for me on either of them.

What do you know about Spygate? The Patriots were guilty, yes, but almost every other team was at the same thing. It was the Patriots that the NFL commissioner decided to go after over it.

'I'm a Green Bay fan and I'm throwing you a bone here. Look I'm not biased in any way!!!'

So Pats fans can bring up other teams and players, but other teams fans just can't mention the Pats in any way - even when a Pats fan is being a hypocrite regarding other teams. Fair enough.

Double Standard? How the hell is it a double standard. The Patriots haven't done anything that other teams haven't done as well. The only issue the Patriots have is consistent winning seasons and being the dominant franchise in the NFL over the last fifteen years. As a result of their success they are constantly under the microscope from the media and people who just don't like winning franchises.

He benefited from the guys who call the plays knowing what plays would be called. It's very simple.

"Everyone was cheating" is not a defense when the claim is "cheating is cheating and means not being the GOAT". Jerry Rice says everyone was using stickum, and Herm Edwards seems to back him up about players doing it. So if it's fine for the Pats to say, it's fine for Rice too.

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 07:56PM

"Double Standard? How the hell is it a double standard. The Patriots haven't done anything that other teams haven't done as well."

Jerry rice also hasn't done anything other receivers haven't done as well.

That's a textbook definition of a double standard.

JCTO · 12-01-2016 08:33PM

Jerry Rice is as bad as the Patriots and vice versa. I love my Pats but Jerry Rice cheated. Spygate the Pats cheated by having a camera guy in the wrong spot recording. No difference really. If Manning is found guilty of HGH he will be lumped in that category also and any player that broke rules is lumped in that category also.

Simple fact rules were broken lets move the fook on. If the NFL catch some and not others that is on them and their inconsistent management of their own league really.

Billy86 · 12-01-2016 08:52PM

JCTO wrote: »

Jerry Rice is as bad as the Patriots and vice versa. I love my Pats but Jerry Rice cheated. Spygate the Pats cheated by having a camera guy in the wrong spot recording. No difference really. If Manning is found guilty of HGH he will be lumped in that category also and any player that broke rules is lumped in that category also.

Simple fact rules were broken lets move the fook on. If the NFL catch some and not others that is on them and their inconsistent management of their own league really.

Couldn't agree more.

Although we should let the Browns cheat, they could use a leg up.

JCTO · 12-01-2016 08:55PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

Although we should let the Browns cheat, they could use a leg up.

It probably still wouldn't help them

They will still find a way to fook it up

Hazys · 12-01-2016 09:15PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

Although we should let the Browns cheat, they could use a leg up.

Lol didn't they get caught cheating last year but everybody has already forgotten unlike when it involves certain team that shall remain nameless :pac:

12-01-2016 09:22PM

Hazys wrote: »

Lol didn't they get caught cheating last year but everybody has already forgotten unlike when it involves certain team that shall remain nameless :pac:

jesus must pats fans bring the team up at every chance

Hazys · 12-01-2016 09:29PM

Clementine Scary String wrote: »

jesus must pats fans bring the team up at every chance

Wa? Patriots? I was talking about the San Diego Chargers ffs

12-01-2016 09:30PM

Hazys wrote: »

Wa? Patriots? I was talking about the San Diego Chargers ffs

jesus must pats fans bring up the chargers at every chance

JCTO · 12-01-2016 09:50PM

I hear the Eagles are cheaters.... Am I doing it right?

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-01-2016 09:53PM

JCTO wrote: »

I hear the Eagles are cheaters.... Am I doing it right?

They booed Santa ffs, they're capable of anything.

12-01-2016 10:09PM

JCTO wrote: »

I hear the Eagles are cheaters.... Am I doing it right?

yup filled mcnabb to the gills with cambells soup for years dont know how the league didn't catch us

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

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