Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

MillField · 10-01-2016 03:15AM

Azalea wrote: »

Episode 4 so far. The young lad talking about missing the WWE and his favourite animal being a cat...

The guy clearly hadn't the mental capacity to deal with interrogators or trials. I want to feel sorry for him but at the same time if he done something bad I don't know what to think! Very addictive show/documentary.

Ageyev · 10-01-2016 03:18AM

Azalea wrote: »

Episode 4 so far. The young lad talking about missing the WWE and his favourite animal being a cat...

Minor point but he said that Wrestlemania was on April 10th but in 2006 Wrestlemania was on April 2nd unless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WrestleMania_22

I can only assume he never got to see it unless they showed it in jail. That was nearly ten years ago

Lingua Franca · 10-01-2016 03:57AM

I really don't know if Steven Avery is guilty or not.

I don't know if he is guilty or not because vindictive cops with an active grudge failed to do a more thorough investigation, tampered with and planted evidence, and coached and coerced a confession.

By which guidelines are they working? To what standards are they being held? Why didn't all hell break loose when the box was found to be tampered with? Why wasn't it fingerprinted? Who polices the police?

I don't know if he is guilty or not because the prosecution very publicly painted him as evil incarnate with as many gory details as he could squeeze in - but has convicted two people using two very contradictory narratives and no physical evidence about what supposedly happened.

How can this be legal?

I don't know if he's guilty or not because Brendan's statements to the police would be totally inadmissible in Ireland, and in most European countries. Link here, if you're curious.

How could the judge say that "Because I think he thinks I'm guilty" doesn't count as an irreconcilable difference? ( I must admit to cheering at that line, I was so worried that he'd say "Because my mom said...")

Etc, etc.

Whether Steven Avery is guilty or not, and so far (episode 7) nothing I have seen actually exonerates him, the documentary shows that there is something very rotten in law enforcement and the legal system over there. It desperately needs regulation and reform and accountability, and those words are not well received in the States.

The Sheriff's department bungled the investigation in their determination to solve their Avery problem. Because of their presence and actions at the crime scene we, even the prosecution lawyers, don't know for sure what happened to Teresa Halbach. There should be no questions about their evidence. They should have held themselves to higher standards and been beyond reproach. Teresa Halbach deserved better than this.

retro:electro · 10-01-2016 04:06AM

Watched this over the xmas. Crazy that there are no safeguards in place to protect people below a certain IQ. State were just happy to put someone away & tie up (one of the many) loose ends in the case. My heart literally broke for Brendan. Seeing him with all the weight put back on made me cry. Poor lad. Not sure about Steven, leaning towards scott and Bobby as the ones who did it. Brendan though, my heart literally broke for him.

Checkmate19 · 10-01-2016 08:12AM

This stuff is only the tip of the iceberg i'd say. All police interviews from start to finish should be shown before the trial starts as there are professionals out their who know how to get what they want.

The Raptor · 10-01-2016 08:27AM

MillField wrote: »

The guy clearly hadn't the mental capacity to deal with interrogators or trials. I want to feel sorry for him but at the same time if he done something bad I don't know what to think! Very addictive show/documentary.

There is three and a half hours of his interrogation on youtube. Its really the most saddest thing. The guy just confesses to a murder and he doesn't show any emotion or anything or asks what happens after he's confessed, he doesn't ask about going to jail. He didn't know what was happening, even took a nap when the cops left. And he asked about going home.

I'm normally ****ting it owning up to a lie I was caught on. And this guy confesses to a murder and nothing. It really is heartbreaking just how clueless he was.

Ageyev · 10-01-2016 10:27AM

Checkmate19 wrote: »

This stuff is only the tip of the iceberg i'd say. All police interviews from start to finish should be shown before the trial starts as there are professionals out their who know how to get what they want.

Avery's interrogation didn't yield useful results for the prosecution. Afaik three of the four hours of Brendans tape was shown in court and the defence agreed to this.

Brussels Sprout · 10-01-2016 12:04PM

One of the things that really confused me is why didn't Steven Avery take the stand in his own trial. Was this likely a decision that he took himself or one that his legal team advised him on? As the Halbach brother said it seemed counter-intuitive for him to say that everyone knew he was innocent and therefore he wasn't going to open himself up for any questioning. He may not have a high IQ but he's Einstein compared to his nephew so I don't think he would have incriminated himself through a lack of comprehension in perhaps the same way that Brendan did at his trial.

Ageyev · 10-01-2016 12:13PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

One of the things really confused me is why didn't Steven Avery take the stand in his own trial. Was this likely a decision that he took himself or one that his legal team advised him on? As the Halbach brother said it seemed counter-intuitive for him to say that everyone knew he was innocent and therefore he wasn't going to open himself up for any questioning. He may not have a high IQ but he's Einstein compared to his nephew so I don't think he would have incriminated himself through a lack of comprehension in perhaps the same way that Brendan did at his trial.

Dean Strang was asked about this recently. He essentially said that it was a private lawyer-client decision. I guess they felt that the defence evidence they presented was good enough. And it sort of bore out as 7 jurors were initially voting not guilty with three hardliners sticking with a guilty vote.

retro:electro · 10-01-2016 01:08PM

It doesn't make sense to me that Teresa was apparently afraid of Avery and that he disguised his number when he called her to come over. Surely she knew where she was going? Like she knew the property was Avery's? Can someone explain that one to me because I'm not sure I understand.

poeticmakaveli · 10-01-2016 01:15PM

Brussels Sprout wrote:

One of the things that really confused me is why didn't Steven Avery take the stand in his own trial. Was this likely a decision that he took himself or one that his legal team advised him on? As the Halbach brother said it seemed counter-intuitive for him to say that everyone knew he was innocent and therefore he wasn't going to open himself up for any questioning. He may not have a high IQ but he's Einstein compared to his nephew so I don't think he would have incriminated himself through a lack of comprehension in perhaps the same way that Brendan did at his trial.

I wanted to post you the interview of where strang talks about it but the crap boards.ie app won't let me post a link!!
Hell it won't even let me start a thread on the app!

nc6000 · 10-01-2016 01:15PM

anna080 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me that Teresa was apparently afraid of Avery and that he disguised his number when he called her to come over. Surely she knew where she was going? Like she knew the property eas Avery's? Can someone explain that one to me because I'm not sure I understand.

I've also thought about this. I think it helps to discount whatever it was her co-worker said about her being afraid of Avery.

Regardless of the phone number or name used when making the appointment she would have known where she was going. It was called Avery Road afterall!

Ageyev · 10-01-2016 01:24PM

anna080 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me that Teresa was apparently afraid of Avery and that he disguised his number when he called her to come over. Surely she knew where she was going? Like she knew the property eas Avery's? Can someone explain that one to me because I'm not sure I understand.

She wasn't afraid of him. On a previous occasion Steven was wearing nothing but a towel (think he was using an outdoor pool). Teresa remarked something Luke "we gross" to her colleagues.

Steven likely hid his number for his own privacy. Teresa knew where she was going and didn't express any hesitation to the people at the Auto Trader office as she set out on her journey.

poeticmakaveli · 10-01-2016 02:01PM

This was probably discussed in the thread earlier and there is no getting away from this.
The cop on the stand rang in to dispatch 2 days prior to the vehicle been found with the number plates and vehicle type! That call was made on November 3rd and yet the vehicle was found in Avery's yard on November 5th! When he was questioned on the stand about it he was bricking it and you could see he was holding back or was nervous about something.
Something that wasn't mentioned in the documentary i don't think either was the vehicle was found with no number plates!
Terrible sad to see this carry on!

mikeym · 10-01-2016 02:09PM

Best Documentary I've ever seen.

I believe Avery was framed twice.

Hrududu · 10-01-2016 02:14PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

One of the things that really confused me is why didn't Steven Avery take the stand in his own trial. Was this likely a decision that he took himself or one that his legal team advised him on? As the Halbach brother said it seemed counter-intuitive for him to say that everyone knew he was innocent and therefore he wasn't going to open himself up for any questioning. He may not have a high IQ but he's Einstein compared to his nephew so I don't think he would have incriminated himself through a lack of comprehension in perhaps the same way that Brendan did at his trial.

The client decides this I think. From watching The Staircase documentary the lawyer explains it better there. The defendant only ever takes the stand if they feel the defense hasn't put up a good enough case. Its up to the prosecution to prove that they are guilty, it's not up to the defendant to prove that they're innocent.

I also think in this case it was probably the best move. When you pit someone with a very low IQ against opposing attorneys who turn everything inside out it can be the deciding factor for a jury that are on the fence.

retro:electro · 10-01-2016 02:15PM

poeticmakaveli wrote: »

This was probably discussed in the thread earlier and there is no getting away from this.
The cop on the stand rang in to dispatch 2 days prior to the vehicle been found with the number plates and vehicle type! That call was made on November 3rd and yet the vehicle was found in Avery's yard on November 5th! When he was questioned on the stand about it he was bricking it and you could see he was holding back or was nervous about something.
Something that wasn't mentioned in the documentary i don't think either was the vehicle was found with no number plates!
Terrible sad to see this carry on!

Yes he was definitely bricking it. I thought the next episode would cover that and look into it more but instead it was never mentioned again.

Ageyev · 10-01-2016 02:42PM

poeticmakaveli wrote: »

This was probably discussed in the thread earlier and there is no getting away from this.
The cop on the stand rang in to dispatch 2 days prior to the vehicle been found with the number plates and vehicle type! That call was made on November 3rd and yet the vehicle was found in Avery's yard on November 5th! When he was questioned on the stand about it he was bricking it and you could see he was holding back or was nervous about something.
Something that wasn't mentioned in the documentary i don't think either was the vehicle was found with no number plates!
Terrible sad to see this carry on!

It wasn't clear what was going on with the car on November 3rd. I think one of the investigators had Colbourn call in to check that it was Halbach's car

Potential Underachiever · 10-01-2016 04:04PM

Mike Guide 69 wrote: »

Try and catch "The Staircase" on Youtube, its as mad as "MAM" , think theres 10 episodes on it, about the Michael Petersen case, be warned, its very graphic!!, but its as riveting and compelling as Making A Murderer

I've watched the Staircase and the Jinx on the back of MAM. I found The Staircase to be a bit slower and less intense than MAM, it was still good but a bit of a slow burner. I know it's the wrong thread but I am curious as to what other people think about whether Paterson is guilty or not, what do you think? Use the spoiler tags so other people can watch it.

Lingua Franca · 10-01-2016 05:29PM

A case that I've seen brought up in connection with this one is the Juan Riviera case.

Prosecution presented a pair of trainers, acquired from Riviera in jail, to "prove" that the victims DNA was on them. Unfortunately for them, when planting that evidence theyd also contaminated them with the DNA from an unknown source found on the victim's body that they'd been handwaving away. And then defence was able to prove not only that those trainers were not available in the USA at the time of the murder, but also the exact date and time that the shoes were purchased.

Prosecution withdrew the trainers as evidence.

MillField · 10-01-2016 06:54PM

The Raptor wrote: »

There is three and a half hours of his interrogation on youtube. Its really the most saddest thing. The guy just confesses to a murder and he doesn't show any emotion or anything or asks what happens after he's confessed, he doesn't ask about going to jail. He didn't know what was happening, even took a nap when the cops left. And he asked about going home.

I'm normally ****ting it owning up to a lie I was caught on. And this guy confesses to a murder and nothing. It really is heartbreaking just how clueless he was.

It's awful really. He clearly didn't know what was happening or the gravity of the situation he was in. Waste of a life throwing someone so young in jail.

Hank Scorpio · 10-01-2016 10:14PM

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

Above is a good read. Hard to know what really happened. She must have been killed on the Avery property, nobody else seen her after that.

Sisyphus Mark II · 10-01-2016 10:22PM

Look at the full Brendan Dassey interview and see if you think they're both innocent.

Dassey wouldn't have the intelligence or imagination to make this story up. He says so much and goes into so much detail. Also his cousin Kayla clearly lies for him when she takes the stand. He obviously offloaded his guilty conscience to her.

Also Avery bought handcuffs and restraints a few weeks before the murder, and his sweat was found under the bonnet of the car.

Still not 100% sure Steven guilty but after watching Dasseys full confession I would have convicted Dassey.

carter10 · 10-01-2016 10:45PM

Stephen Avery got a new Lawyer http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/steven-avery-from-making-a-murderer-gets-a-new-lawyer-w161137

Ageyev · 10-01-2016 11:19PM

Sisyphus Mark II wrote: »

Look at the full Brendan Dassey interview and see if you think they're both innocent.

Dassey wouldn't have the intelligence or imagination to make this story up. He says so much and goes into so much detail. Also his cousin Kayla clearly lies for him when she takes the stand. He obviously offloaded his guilty conscience to her.

Also Avery bought handcuffs and restraints a few weeks before the murder, and his sweat was found under the bonnet of the car.

Still not 100% sure Steven guilty but after watching Dasseys full confession I would have convicted Dassey.

Some of these points have already been dealt with.

The handcuffs were for use with his girlfriend.

There was no sweat found on the Rav4 - DNA can't be found in sweat. It was likely cross contamination as an investigator didn't change gloves after searching Steven's vehicle.

Brendan says he got the detail from Kiss the Girls - cutting off the victim's hair was in the film

None of Teresa's DNA such as blood and no sign of rope or chains were found in Steven's trailer or on his bed posts. Kayla's statement was after much information had been released into the media.

PressRun · 10-01-2016 11:32PM

I thought it seemed quite obvious from Kayla's reaction that she had fabricated her story. It seemed to hit her as she was sitting on the stand that it had all gotten way out of hand. I think she just wanted attention and went too far with it.

8-10 · 10-01-2016 11:41PM

Ageyev wrote: »

DNA can't be found in sweat.

Ok....please share your source for this as my belief is that this is a completely false statement

retro:electro · 10-01-2016 11:47PM

It's obvious to me that the handcuff thing has been something that the prosecution found out and blew it out of context. He may have bought them for private use, but they, having found out he purchased them weeks prior to Teresa's murder, decided to use them as an instrument in her death and thus concocted a whole story around them.

Cypher_sounds · 11-01-2016 12:33AM

anna080 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me that Teresa was apparently afraid of Avery and that he disguised his number when he called her to come over. Surely she knew where she was going? Like she knew the property was Avery's? Can someone explain that one to me because I'm not sure I understand.

Go back to the beginning of episode 2, Teresa leaves him a voicemail saying she will call over around 2 so obviously knew where she was going and didn't seem worried.

retro:electro · 11-01-2016 12:42AM

Cypher_sounds wrote: »

Go back to the beginning of episode 2, Teresa leaves him a voicemail saying she will call over around 2 so obviously knew where she was going and didn't seem worried.

Ya I must actually watch the first two again. That's the thing with this series as brilliant as it was the little things at the beginning that matter seem to get lost with the arrival of the heavier stuff in the later episodes.

Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

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