DCM 2015 Graduates: Chapter Next!

Kennyg71 · 03-12-2015 10:32AM

Hey Mrs MC, I am same at moment, ankle, hip, glute and Achilies, did 3 miles
faster than I Have done in months last night and feel surprisingly good this
Morning, felt crappy before run and most of week. I have been giving legs
Good rub out myself, found lots of tender spots you just don't find with foam
Roller, especially in muscles at side of leg between calf & shin and seems to be
Helping, also muscle just above knee. I do heel walking and tippy toe walking
Which also helps with Achilies, I remember back to when started DCM training
And all pains that went with it and know even though still niggly, it is much better
Now, don't let it into your head to much and see how you feel on day, if you feel
You could manage park run, you can manage jingle bells, and remember it mostly
Down hill.&#55357;&#56832;

chrislad · 03-12-2015 12:33PM

Mrs Mc wrote: »

Myles question for you I've been back running 4 times a week now sticking to your plan dropping one day from the 5 day plan purely due to time. I haven't raced or done any distance over 6 miles throughout November I've been struggling with my calves and Achilles since DCM. I did go to the physio last week and there was some tightness which she worked on. I have niggles when I walk nothing very sore just niggles. I have heel raises and calf stretch exercise to do and I've continued the Gerard Hartman rope stretches that I did during DCM and foam rolling. Just concerned about jingle bells sat should I bow out and rest up for a week or do I just keep going in the hope it improves? I think I do recall from the physio that resting up an Achilles doesn't really do any good but don't quote me on that I could be wrong. Thanks.

I'm actually feeling similar to you. My right calf is a bit sore, in the way that it was as the start of marathon training. I've not been to the physio yet, but I probably will for a session soon. I've been using the tennis ball, and some heel stair lifts. I'm just going to go for the 5k and see what happens. I'm planning to take some time off over Christmas anyway.

Myles Splitz · 03-12-2015 03:37PM

Mrs Mc wrote: »

Myles question for you I've been back running 4 times a week now sticking to your plan dropping one day from the 5 day plan purely due to time. I haven't raced or done any distance over 6 miles throughout November I've been struggling with my calves and Achilles since DCM. I did go to the physio last week and there was some tightness which she worked on. I have niggles when I walk nothing very sore just niggles. I have heel raises and calf stretch exercise to do and I've continued the Gerard Hartman rope stretches that I did during DCM and foam rolling. Just concerned about jingle bells sat should I bow out and rest up for a week or do I just keep going in the hope it improves? I think I do recall from the physio that resting up an Achilles doesn't really do any good but don't quote me on that I could be wrong. Thanks.

You should be fine to do the race as intensity won't make a huge difference with calf related issues (normally you will find other muscle groups actually become more prominent (Hamstrings and glutes in particular)

Going forward a few suggestions I would make;

* With regards the rope stretching (AIS) if you find it to be beneficial by all means keep doing it but the two caveats I would say that often aren't highlighted enough

- Speed at which you stretch is important. given the short duration of the stretch many people will have the tendency to move through range of movement quickly as there is only a short window in order to reach your end point range of movement.
The stretch needs to be done at low speed otherwise you will stimulate what is called the muscle reflex arc. Basically this is a mechanism that kicks in at higher speeds to looks to by pass the brains commands to tighten a muscle in order to protect itself from tearing.

* You don't have to feel the burn with a stretch. You only want stretch to the very first area of bind. You will actually get more benefit from stopping at the first point you feel the slightest sensation in a muscle than trying to force it. Stretching should always be subtle and progressive and is not simply the farther the better.

In terms of training going forward in terms of preventing niggles.

- Slow down easy run by 15-30 seconds per mile for now. You are right activity is your friend so the aim is to do as much as possible without overloading the body. In this incidence till the area improves you want to manipulate the aspects of training to suit the recovery.

With injuries you want to look at the cause and from that you can determine whether it is the intensity or the volume that needs to be reduced. For the most part with runners injuries are muscle overuse so the tendency is to reduce intensity to facilitate recovery.

- Heel raises. I would encourage you to focus on eccentric heel raises. Basically this means that after you "raise the heels" slowly come back down in a controlled fashion beyond starting point. This will stretch the muscles under tension which is excellent for achilles issues.

neilthefunkeone · 03-12-2015 03:51PM

Last night i compleed the 30min + 6x100m. For the sprint i went with 100m then 200m easy x6. Should the gap in between be shorter or longer or is it open?

Doing the RNLI reindeer 10k in Marley park on Sunday.. Not sure if it is an event i can race.. Will wait to see how its set up.. Probably just easy it with the GF.. so will take a easy run tonight and maybe a short easy on sat morning.

Myles Splitz · 03-12-2015 03:52PM

jake1970 wrote: »

Just a quick update on my training......

There has been no training due to an abductor muscle strain, no running for the last week and a half and it will probably be another week and a half before i run again. So that rules out my first target of the year, the Donadea 50k in February, it was probably too ambitious a target anyway so soon after DCM.
If my recovery from injury goes to plan then the new target race will be the Mullingar Half Marathon in March.
Best of luck to everyone running Jingle Bells 5k at the weekend.

Best of luck with the recovery.

My advice would be to training as hard in recovery and rehabilitation as you would when fully fit.

Alot of people tend to think that once they are injured that its is time lost but what you do when unable to run can make the difference between it taking 2-3 weeks and 2-3 months to return to full fitness.

I will give you a few examples, I know one particular runner who would be challenging at most road races around the country. After surgery last year he was back on the roads roughly 3 months later. Within 8 weeks he was back to breaking PB's (at a level where PB's are hard to comeby). The reason he was back to the level he was so quickly was due to the fact he was spending 2-3 hours a day in gym cross training and weights.

Now I am not saying that we have to spend that amount of time every day but I would suggest that when you get injured the following approach will always yield huge benefits;

- Get the injury looked at. Whether or not you need the diagnosis is not the point but you want to be able to know what sort of exercises you can do a) without aggravating and b) to help rehabilitation.

- Keep your normal training routine. If you training 5 nights a week make sure to keep that up, mix between cross training and rehab but spend as much time as you usually would.

Doing this will also dramatically decrease chances of overreaching when you get back to running and ultimately decrease the chance of re-injuring.

03-12-2015 03:57PM

Myles, I haven't decided fully on Jingle Bells yet, but will do so this afternoon.

Can I got to crossfit tonight?

It's deload week so only easy stuff,

10 KB 24kg swings
10 doubleunders
10 BW squats
10 Push Press 20kg
10 burpees

3 rounds - but not for time, just for form.

Would that be ok this evening? or should be taking it handy ahead of Saturday?

Myles Splitz · 03-12-2015 04:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Myles, I haven't decided fully on Jingle Bells yet, but will do so this afternoon.

Can I got to crossfit tonight?

It's deload week so only easy stuff,

10 KB 24kg swings
10 doubleunders
10 BW squats
10 Push Press 20kg
10 burpees

3 rounds - but not for time, just for form.

Would that be ok this evening? or should be taking it handy ahead of Saturday?

If focus is on form and the intensity/volume is reduced then it should have very little ill effects just take your time with it.

03-12-2015 04:01PM

Great, thank you

Mrs Mc · 03-12-2015 06:58PM

Myles Splitz wrote: »

You should be fine to do the race as intensity won't make a huge difference with calf related issues (normally you will find other muscle groups actually become more prominent (Hamstrings and glutes in particular)

Going forward a few suggestions I would make;

* With regards the rope stretching (AIS) if you find it to be beneficial by all means keep doing it but the two caveats I would say that often aren't highlighted enough

- Speed at which you stretch is important. given the short duration of the stretch many people will have the tendency to move through range of movement quickly as there is only a short window in order to reach your end point range of movement.
The stretch needs to be done at low speed otherwise you will stimulate what is called the muscle reflex arc. Basically this is a mechanism that kicks in at higher speeds to looks to by pass the brains commands to tighten a muscle in order to protect itself from tearing.

* You don't have to feel the burn with a stretch. You only want stretch to the very first area of bind. You will actually get more benefit from stopping at the first point you feel the slightest sensation in a muscle than trying to force it. Stretching should always be subtle and progressive and is not simply the farther the better.

In terms of training going forward in terms of preventing niggles.

- Slow down easy run by 15-30 seconds per mile for now. You are right activity is your friend so the aim is to do as much as possible without overloading the body. In this incidence till the area improves you want to manipulate the aspects of training to suit the recovery.

With injuries you want to look at the cause and from that you can determine whether it is the intensity or the volume that needs to be reduced. For the most part with runners injuries are muscle overuse so the tendency is to reduce intensity to facilitate recovery.

- Heel raises. I would encourage you to focus on eccentric heel raises. Basically this means that after you "raise the heels" slowly come back down in a controlled fashion beyond starting point. This will stretch the muscles under tension which is excellent for achilles issues.

Thanks Myles it's funny you should say about the speed of the rope stretches FBOT was telling me I need to dig out the article again on the rope stretches as I was doing them too fast and I had probably fallen into a few habits that meant I wasn't stretching correctly so will definately look at that. Thanks for the input

Mrs Mc · 03-12-2015 06:59PM

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Hey Mrs MC, I am same at moment, ankle, hip, glute and Achilies, did 3 miles
faster than I Have done in months last night and feel surprisingly good this
Morning, felt crappy before run and most of week. I have been giving legs
Good rub out myself, found lots of tender spots you just don't find with foam
Roller, especially in muscles at side of leg between calf & shin and seems to be
Helping, also muscle just above knee. I do heel walking and tippy toe walking
Which also helps with Achilies, I remember back to when started DCM training
And all pains that went with it and know even though still niggly, it is much better
Now, don't let it into your head to much and see how you feel on day, if you feel
You could manage park run, you can manage jingle bells, and remember it mostly
Down hill.��

Thanks G ! Might try the winter series in raheny see you are back doing them.

Mrs Mc · 03-12-2015 07:01PM

chrislad wrote: »

I'm actually feeling similar to you. My right calf is a bit sore, in the way that it was as the start of marathon training. I've not been to the physio yet, but I probably will for a session soon. I've been using the tennis ball, and some heel stair lifts. I'm just going to go for the 5k and see what happens. I'm planning to take some time off over Christmas anyway.

Thanks Chris I think a huge element of it is frustration on my part based on how much we were running only a few weeks ago and how im feeling now. Think I need to just get out and start enjoying it again.

runnerholic · 03-12-2015 10:15PM

The weather forecast for the Jingle Bells on Saturday is horrific. Gale force winds and lashing rain. No chance of a PB. I'm considering doing a longer run close to home instead.

jake1970 · 03-12-2015 10:20PM

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Best of luck with the recovery.

My advice would be to training as hard in recovery and rehabilitation as you would when fully fit.

Alot of people tend to think that once they are injured that its is time lost but what you do when unable to run can make the difference between it taking 2-3 weeks and 2-3 months to return to full fitness.

I will give you a few examples, I know one particular runner who would be challenging at most road races around the country. After surgery last year he was back on the roads roughly 3 months later. Within 8 weeks he was back to breaking PB's (at a level where PB's are hard to comeby). The reason he was back to the level he was so quickly was due to the fact he was spending 2-3 hours a day in gym cross training and weights.

Now I am not saying that we have to spend that amount of time every day but I would suggest that when you get injured the following approach will always yield huge benefits;

- Get the injury looked at. Whether or not you need the diagnosis is not the point but you want to be able to know what sort of exercises you can do a) without aggravating and b) to help rehabilitation.

- Keep your normal training routine. If you training 5 nights a week make sure to keep that up, mix between cross training and rehab but spend as much time as you usually would.

Doing this will also dramatically decrease chances of overreaching when you get back to running and ultimately decrease the chance of re-injuring.

Thanks for that Myles.
I went to my Physical Therapist on Tuesday and he has given some exercises to do everyday for the rest of the week, next week i have to add some more exercises and to work on my flexibility.

What are your thoughts on long training runs for the shorter race distances. Should it be time on your feet or distance? is there any benefit to say running 16 slow miles on a long run while training for a 5/10k ? Would coming from a marathon training cycle and the benefits we would have gained from that endurance wise mean that there would be no need for a long LSR such as the one i mentioned above ?

Myles Splitz · 03-12-2015 10:27PM

runnerholic wrote: »

The weather forecast for the Jingle Bells on Saturday is horrific. Gale force winds and lashing rain. No chance of a PB. I'm considering doing a longer run close to home instead.

A few considerations I would make before deciding

How frequent have you raced over the last few weeks?
How is your long run endurance compared to your speed?
How often do you race in general?

I think opting out of a race just because a PB is off the cards is not a great tactic to employ most of the time especially over the shorter distances. You can learn alot more from a bad race than a good training session.

Your race craft is something that you need to practice just like all other elements of training. As long as you are not going gun how racing like crazy and not recovering adequately (trying to squash training in because you are racing so much)

Racing is the most specific training you can do in terms of physical improvement. If you look at effort it is only that last km of hurt that you get the most out of physically and this is something you can't replicate in training. The only reason it's not advocated to over race is due to the recovery required but I reckon if you have no target races this side of Christmas it would be worth while doing personally.

03-12-2015 10:33PM

I'm really very very nervous about Saturday. It's ridiculous. It's just a 5k race. If it goes badly I can do another one next week. Not exactly a big deal right? I have no idea how to run a 5k race. How to get the best out of me. Not a clue. I'll inevitably get a stitch - I always do when u out even a tiny amount of pressure on. I'll go out too fast - because I don't really know what my pace should be. I'll struggle between 2.5km and 3.5km - I'll consider giving up.

I just don't know how to judge how I'm feeling and knowing whether to push more or push less and by the time I've usually figure that out it's too late.

Ugh.

Give me a half marathon any day.

Edit: did I actually just say I'd rather run 21km than 5? Ffs. It's official. I'm broken.

Myles Splitz · 03-12-2015 10:34PM

jake1970 wrote: »

What are your thoughts on long training runs for the shorter race distances. Should it be time on your feet or distance? is there any benefit to say running 16 slow miles on a long run while training for a 5/10k ? Would coming from a marathon training cycle and the benefits we would have gained from that endurance wise mean that there would be no need for a long LSR such as the one i mentioned above ?

Training from anything between 1500m-Marathon shouldn't hugely differ in terms of layout and mileage only really the emphasis of the sessions.

Having said that I would say emphasis for 5k/10k should be on the sessions with the long run about time on your feet.

As such general rules would be 90-2 hours at easy pace (2.30-3 min slower than 5k pace)

The problem with saying 16 miles is that it is a completely different session depending on ability. The are some pretty good studies done previously with regards the long run which show that runs from approx 2.30-3+ hours don't actually have as much benefit as many think due to plateauing of aerobic stimulus and increase in biomechanical stress. 90% of people a weekly 90-2 hour session done continuous would yield huge aerobic benefits even for wannabe marathon runners.

The plan we have will be aiming to progress to this sort of level over the coming weeks and months though.

menoscemo · 03-12-2015 10:55PM

runnerholic wrote: »

The weather forecast for the Jingle Bells on Saturday is horrific. Gale force winds and lashing rain. No chance of a PB. I'm considering doing a longer run close to home instead.

Yeah but it's a southwest wind meaning it's right behind you for the 1st km and from the side and behind for the 2nd. It's only against you for about 500m on the ordinance survey rd where you should tuck in behind a few runners. The last half of the race is almost entirely tree lined and you won't feel the wind at all (it will be coming from the side in any case).

Like anything you should study the route and use the course and conditions to your advantage.

runnerholic · 03-12-2015 10:56PM

Myles Splitz wrote: »

A few considerations I would make before deciding

How frequent have you raced over the last few weeks?
How is your long run endurance compared to your speed?
How often do you race in general?

I think opting out of a race just because a PB is off the cards is not a great tactic to employ most of the time especially over the shorter distances. You can learn alot more from a bad race than a good training session.

Your race craft is something that you need to practice just like all other elements of training. As long as you are not going gun how racing like crazy and not recovering adequately (trying to squash training in because you are racing so much)

Racing is the most specific training you can do in terms of physical improvement. If you look at effort it is only that last km of hurt that you get the most out of physically and this is something you can't replicate in training. The only reason it's not advocated to over race is due to the recovery required but I reckon if you have no target races this side of Christmas it would be worth while doing personally.

I haven't raced at all this year due to injury Myles. I somehow managed to get around the dcm with inadequate preparation and slower than I would consider myself capable of. Have been going ok since the dcm and while not really knowing where I am at with regard to a good 5k time its possible I could be in pb form. Thanks for the advice and I will reconsider lining up for the start.

03-12-2015 10:58PM

menoscemo wrote: »

Yeah but it's a southwest wind meaning it's right behind you for the 1st km and from the side and behind for the 2nd. It's only against you for about 500m on the ordinance survey rd where you should tuck in behind a few runners. The last half of the race is almost entirely tree lined and you won't feel the wind at all (it will be coming from the side in any case).

Like anything you should study the route and use the course and conditions to your advantage.

Sssssshhhhhhh I was using that weather as an excuse for my appalling time

Singer · 03-12-2015 11:28PM

jake1970 wrote: »

There has been no training due to an abductor muscle strain, no running for the last week and a half and it will probably be another week and a half before i run again.

Sorry to hear Jake. Sounds like a lot of us have had some problem or other!

menoscemo · 03-12-2015 11:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sssssshhhhhhh I was using that weather as an excuse for my appalling time

Excuses are for after the race. Go into it with a good strategy and a positive mindset

chrislad · 04-12-2015 10:56AM

I'm doing the Birdhill Turkey 5k Run on Sunday. My right calf is a bit tender so I don't know if it's the best idea, but sure, I'll give it a go anyway. I'm going to aim for sub 25, though the course isn't well suits to PBs, with the first 2.5k being uphill, but the last 2.5 are down (it's run for 2.5 then turn around

).

This Fat Girl Runs · 04-12-2015 11:07AM

Got my DCM t-shirt after all! Huge thanks to Mrs Mc for hooking me up!

<--These are not big enough!

hot buttered scones · 04-12-2015 02:38PM

Looks like I won't get out today. Would 30 minutes on a exercise bike do instead of 15 minutes easy run? It's just to get the blood flowing to the legs right?

unaaine · 04-12-2015 02:44PM

Hi all. Just thought to check the thread and have somehow been missing the updates so am a bit behind on posts and the training. Have been doing 3 x fairly easy runs per week for the last 2 weeks and 1 swim. So hopefully I can catch up from next week. I'm doing the Jingle Bells in the morning too. The forecast doesn't look great but nothing can be done about that. I'm hoping to tuck in behind someone for the first 4km and then push hard for the last - which is downhill. As long as I beat my son this year that's the important thing :rolleyes: Good luck to all who are doing it. Santa hats and tinsel are obligatory!

Kennyg71 · 04-12-2015 03:37PM

Best of luck all with Jingle Bells and other races tomorrow, looking forward to hearing About all pb's

Mrs Mc · 04-12-2015 06:12PM

This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »

Got my DCM t-shirt after all! Huge thanks to Mrs Mc for hooking me up!

<--These are not big enough!

Woh woh !!

Toulouse · 04-12-2015 07:31PM

Mrs Mc is a legend - fact!

I'm planning a ninja assault of the Jingle Bells 5k! I'll tip over to the Park, get blown along for 5k and then across the road and home so if I don't see anyone then good luck to all!! It's not going to be pleasant but it might be a laugh!

Mrs Mc · 04-12-2015 07:55PM

Best of luck all won't make it unfortunately something has come up so looking forward to hearing all about the pb's tomorrow hope the rain isn't too bad.

nop98 · 04-12-2015 08:16PM

I won't make it to JB either... No running work (apart from one 5M) on account of feeling cr*p, manic work, or torrential rain.

Instead, I am off to get the Xmas tree with the 6yo. She's been excited all week and it'll be great fun. Tough, but someone has to do it.

DCM 2015 Graduates: Chapter Next!

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