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Shooting in California

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    #422
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Amazingfun wrote: »
    What about the illegal Mexicans that beat, rape and kill innocent Americans? THAT is what Trump is talking about-he wants the law of the country upheld, and why the hell should they not be upheld anyways?

    Or do illegal Mexicans committing crimes against Americans make you "salivate".

    Jesus, the amount of ignorant comments on here....
    On the subject of ignorance, illegal immigrants are actually shown to be less likely to commit crimes than American citizens. If Trump was even slightly correct in the nonsense he spews, crime would be skyrocketing in the US over the last 25 years as the number of illegal immigrants has tripled. Yet strangely, violent crime - including the likes of murder, rape, and aggravated assault that you talk about - are down 48% over that time.


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    #423
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,149 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    And people deflect with well Paris had a mass shooting. No guns something something.

    Well the real issue in this case is how did a US born and raised, well educated middle class guy with a decent job become radicalised and go on to commit an act of mass murder.

    Talking about gun control is a good way to deflect from that though.


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    #424
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Billy86 wrote: »
    On the subject of ignorance, illegal immigrants are actually shown to be less likely to commit crimes than American citizens. If Trump was even slightly correct in the nonsense he spews, crime would be skyrocketing in the US over the last 25 years as the number of illegal immigrants has tripled. Yet strangely, violent crime - including the likes of murder, rape, and aggravated assault that you talk about - are down 48% over that time.

    It's almost like illegal Mexicans want to stay off the police radar and work...


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    #425
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    As a law abiding person, it's of little consequence to me what military gear the cops have. As a law abiding person, I can't ever foresee a time when they will be using it on me.
    Good thing the US police never make wrongful arrests, use unnecessary force or discriminate against darker coloured skin people or just those from poorer areas, so!


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    #426
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Well the real issue in this case is how did a US born and raised, well educated middle class guy with a decent job become radicalised and go on to commit an act of mass murder.

    Probably similar reasons why ditto happens in France & the UK?


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    #427
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Well the real issue in this case is how did a US born and raised, well educated middle class guy with a decent job become radicalised and go on to commit an act of mass murder.

    US foreign policy! Racism! Donald Trump! White People! The Confederate Flag! Islamophobia! Fox News! Gun Laws! Guns!

    Pick one, it'll to be wheeled out in the coming days:rolleyes:


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    #428
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,149 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Probably similar reasons why ditto happens in France & the UK?

    Well the reasons usually given in those cases is that they are marginalised, poor and uneducated and therefore easy pickings to be recruited. Those don't appear to apply in this case.


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    #429
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Well the real issue in this case is how did a US born and raised, well educated middle class guy with a decent job become radicalised and go on to commit an act of mass murder.

    Interesting that people are focusing on how the guy went wrong. It's just as possible that it was Tashfeen Malik who was the chief driver behind the attacks. Was her time in Saudi Arabia influential? It will be interesting to see what details emerge in the coming days.


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    #430
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Good thing the US police never make wrongful arrests, use unnecessary force or discriminate against darker coloured skin people or just those from poorer areas, so!

    Good thing those darker coloured folk dont have a massively disproportionate crime rate and overt hostility to police that would result in the use of unnecessary force or discrimination, isnt it.


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    #431
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I live in Ireland. Shooting is my sport/hobby. I stand up for the vast majority of gun owners who are fully licenced law abiding citizens.

    I don't stand up for ar5eholes who commit crimes with their firearms and the full weight of the law should be thrown at them.

    When it comes to debate about terrorists, criminals and guns, licenced gun owners are thrown into the mix when it's nothing to do with them.

    The amount of legally licenced gun owners who commit crimes is a tiny tiny minority. Over 99% of us live normal, law abiding lives, we just happen to enjoy shooting. It's fully licenced and regulated here in Ireland.

    Banning guns because of the actions of so few seems unfair in my opinion.

    A tiny minority of gun owners commit crimes with their firearms and there is a clamour to ban guns.

    A tiny minority of Muslims commit terrorist crimes. There's not much of a clamour to ban Muslims.

    cd4d144089a3e6a9aae3735bbd906913.jpg
    To be fair - and I may be wrong since I am not a gun owner and never have been - but I don't think there is as much of a gun owner stigma in Ireland, or in many countries outside of the US. I don't have an issue with people owning guns, be it if they are a farmer or such who may need it, just live in rural areas (say in parts of rural Canada where you might just stumble across a bear in your back garden at any random point), or even for a hobby. I used to work in a bank with a lad who was the nicest guy you'd ever, pretty quiet until you got to know him type, would never hurt a fly. But he loved his guns - loved them... only in the same way some car fanatics love their motors, though.

    But I do think there should be extensive criminal, psychological and general background checks prior to being granted a licence and that these should be re-evaluated every few years, maybe every decade or so. It's not the gun ownership stuff in the US that I have much issue with in and of itself, it's this pig-headed willful ignorance that needing to show you're not an violent ex-convict, radicalised Muslim/Christian/cultist/etc, someone with serious mental disorders, etc is somehow evil government just being evil for the sake of being evil.


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    #432
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Well the reasons usually given in those cases is that they are marginalised, poor and uneducated and therefore easy pickings to be recruited. Those don't appear to apply in this case.

    It's never the case for terrorism. Largely a middle class pursuit ( the IRA was a partial exception).


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    #433
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,149 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Custardpi wrote: »
    Interesting that people are focusing on how the guy went wrong. It's just as possible that it was Tashfeen Malik who was the chief driver behind the attacks. Was her time in Saudi Arabia influential? It will be interesting to see what details emerge in the coming days.

    Yes, I have a feeling it will be revealed that she was the driving force behind his radicalisation and the attacks. Apparently they met online before meeting in Saudi Arabia. They could have been communicating for a while. Why bring a baby into that situation though is another question?

    Suppose we will just have to wait and see


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    #434
    Amazingfun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun


    Billy86 wrote: »
    On the subject of ignorance, illegal immigrants are actually shown to be less likely to commit crimes than American citizens. If Trump was even slightly correct in the nonsense he spews, crime would be skyrocketing in the US over the last 25 years as the number of illegal immigrants has tripled. Yet strangely, violent crime - including the likes of murder, rape, and aggravated assault that you talk about - are down 48% over that time.

    :pac: oh, is that right? straight out of "Billy86 news", is that? Be sure to tell that to the hundreds of victims, like the family of Kathryn Steinle:
    Kathryn Steinle, 32, was shot to death (in the back) in broad daylight by alleged shooter Francisco Sanchez in front of her dad and a friend

    Sanchez, 45, is a 7-time felon who should have been handed over to immigration authorities following a Bay Area arrest four months ago

    Sanchez should have been handed over to immigration officials when last jailed, but was let go in line with San Francisco's 'sanctuary city' policy

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3147942/Woman-randomly-shot-death-popular-San-Francisco-pier.html


    And Trump is right on just about everything, despite your sneering.


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    #435
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,149 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Amazingfun wrote: »
    :pac: oh, is that right? straight out of "Billy86 news", is that? Be sure to tell that to the hundreds of victims, like the family of Kathryn Steinle:



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3147942/Woman-randomly-shot-death-popular-San-Francisco-pier.html


    And Trump is right on just about everything, despite your sneering.

    No he isn't, Trump is a joke and hasn't a hope of becoming the next president thankfully.


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    #436
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    terrorism or work related? how about, its both


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    #437
    Amazingfun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    No he isn't, Trump is a joke and hasn't a hope of becoming the next president thankfully.

    I'll be sure to let him know that "ceadoin" says he should pack it in :pac:


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    #438
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Amazingfun wrote: »
    I'll be sure to let him know that "ceadoin" says he should pack it in :pac:

    Be lovely if you would. He's a crass, ignorant, obnoxious bully in his business dealings, his talk and his way of going about his campaign too. He also seems to be a pretty incompetent businessman, at least for the company. He manages to come out of it fairly well-off, but only on the backs of his jobless employees when his companies liquidate.

    Actually, kinda surprised we don't have a Donald Trump thread. He does enough crazy stuff to keep us all entertained (and probably mostly mildly horrified) for months...


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    #439
    kettlehead
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    Billy86 wrote: »
    On the subject of ignorance, illegal immigrants are actually shown to be less likely to commit crimes than American citizens. If Trump was even slightly correct in the nonsense he spews, crime would be skyrocketing in the US over the last 25 years as the number of illegal immigrants has tripled. Yet strangely, violent crime - including the likes of murder, rape, and aggravated assault that you talk about - are down 48% over that time.

    Huge numbers of them are violent criminals. Technically, every illegal is a criminal. Including the 50k Irish trespassers.
    Sarah Saldana, ICE’s director, disclosed to Congress on Wednesday that the agency is apprehending and removing fewer illegal immigrants than in past years.

    Somewhere around 179,029 “undocumented criminals with final orders of removal” from the United States currently remain at large across the country and are essentially untraceable, according to Sen. Chuck Grassley (R., Iowa), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who disclosed these numbers during a Wednesday hearing.


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    #440
    kupus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    I have a feeling that 2016 will be a very bloody year :(

    attacks are going to escalate in other countries, I think russia is going to be bombed, probably chechen related cos they are directly funded by saudi and saudi hates russia. MOre attacks in eurozone and america.
    Kosovo/Albanian expansion into macedonia.
    Bosnia separatists (all 3 groups of them getting more than mouthy with each other)

    Its well known that Saudi wants russia to bleed. If you are looking for links. Find your own its not that hard.
    or maybe not, what do i know Im just a crank on the internet.


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    #441
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    People point to the FBI's definition but it shows me this which is technically a mass murder.



    This link has a bit more on it http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/08/what-is-a-mass-shooting
    I think the logic used is to replace 'murder' with 'shooting' - so if four murdered = mass murder, then four shot = mass shooting.

    There's a database of them here, with news links for each incident - http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 - but it's temporarily unavailable, looks like they had a crazy traffic spike in the last few hours. Bookmark it and visit it later if you want, it's absolutely ridiculous.


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    #442
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    As a law abiding person, it's of little consequence to me what military gear the cops have. As a law abiding person, I can't ever foresee a time when they will be using it on me.

    As a law abiding person shouldn't you be very concerned about militarism of the police force?


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    #443
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    As a law abiding person shouldn't you be very concerned about militarism of the police force?

    Yes and no, The argument should be why do the American police treat the public they serve as the Enemy until proven otherwise.


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    #444
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Good thing those darker coloured folk dont have a massively disproportionate crime rate and overt hostility to police that would result in the use of unnecessary force or discrimination, isnt it.
    Yeah, because it's not like those darker coloured folk have a much larger history of worse socio-economic conditions imposed on them largely by white people. No, no, not at all. It's their dark skin that makes them prone to crime, it just makes sense!


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    #445
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Amazingfun wrote: »
    :pac: oh, is that right? straight out of "Billy86 news", is that? Be sure to tell that to the hundreds of victims, like the family of Kathryn Steinle:



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3147942/Woman-randomly-shot-death-popular-San-Francisco-pier.html


    And Trump is right on just about everything, despite your sneering.

    I see you're using the emotive, anecdotal evidence approach - you really do fit right in with your crowd! Do you want me to link to the stories of victims of crime from American citizens?

    Here is statistical evidence - http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

    Here is more, from the right-leaning Washington Post - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/

    As for your last line, do try harder.


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    #446
    kettlehead
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Yeah, because it's not like those darker coloured folk have a much larger history of worse socio-economic conditions imposed on them largely by white people. No, no, not at all. It's their dark skin that makes them prone to crime, it just makes sense!

    Good man, Billy. It's all whiteys fault! Jesus wept.


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    #447
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    kettlehead wrote: »
    Good man, Billy. It's all whiteys fault! Jesus wept.

    hey ... Hey ... Check your privilege bro. I hear it's old whiteys fault one does not do well at school. :pac:


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    #448
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Evidence based opinion

    Whenever you delve into the gun issue in the US, two overly simplistic views often come to the fore. A US redneck "from my cold dead hands" view and a "ban all legal guns, that will solve all illegal gun activities" view. I don't find either compelling.

    But I've got to say the evidence based opinions tend to reinforce the view that legal ownership of guns is not the problem in the US, and banning that legal ownership is not the solution. I think people from outside the US assume its the wild wild west when it comes to guns, not giving credit to Americans who struggle to balance constitutional liberties with responsibilities and bear the costs of failure on the issue. The lack of thought and information that Irish posters have on the issue is illuminated by one poster voicing the view that "obviously" all rifles ought to be banned, handguns are okay and shortly afterwards another poster saying that obviously all handguns should be banned, and rifles are fine.

    Long story short, good post.


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    #449
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Sand wrote: »
    Whenever you delve into the gun issue in the US, two overly simplistic views often come to the fore. A US redneck "from my cold dead hands" view and a "ban all legal guns, that will solve all illegal gun activities" view. I don't find either compelling.

    But I've got to say the evidence based opinions tend to reinforce the view that legal ownership of guns is not the problem in the US, and banning that legal ownership is not the solution. I think people from outside the US assume its the wild wild west when it comes to guns, not giving credit to Americans who struggle to balance constitutional liberties with responsibilities and bear the costs of failure on the issue. The lack of thought and information that Irish posters have on the issue is illuminated by one poster voicing the view that "obviously" all rifles ought to be banned, handguns are okay and shortly afterwards another poster saying that obviously all handguns should be banned, and rifles are fine.

    Long story short, good post.

    And it all falls down with legal gun ownership in other countries not having mass shooting all the time.


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    #450
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Increasingly looking like a link to terrorism.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting/

    And its blatantly obvious he and his wife were planning this for a long long time. It was just a case of when not if.

    I read online they had 6000 rounds in total which only cost them about 2000 dollars. And they bought the gun from a shop that was last week advertising Black Friday deals on guns.

    But hey, no need for gun control!


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    #451
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    kupus wrote: »
    I have a feeling that 2016 will be a very bloody year :(

    attacks are going to escalate in other countries, I think russia is going to be bombed, probably chechen related cos they are directly funded by saudi and saudi hates russia. MOre attacks in eurozone and america.
    Kosovo/Albanian expansion into macedonia.
    Bosnia separatists (all 3 groups of them getting more than mouthy with each other)

    Its well known that Saudi wants russia to bleed. If you are looking for links. Find your own its not that hard.
    or maybe not, what do i know Im just a crank on the internet.

    You talk more sense than more than half of the experts.


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