M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

marno21 · 01-12-2015 9:51pm

270WIN wrote: »

was in south court tonight...dual carriage way from adare to rathkeale...single road from rathkeale to foynes...how in the name of god is this of benefit to foynes!!!

The existing N69 & R518 are narrow, windy and undulate and in the case of the N69 have villages and a dangerous bridge between Foynes and the motorway network.

I hope by dual carraigeway the Adare bypass element is a 120km/h motorway and none of this 'HQDC' nonsenese

moleyv · 01-12-2015 9:56pm

Hopefully the 'grannies' stay off the single carriage bit. Otherwise no time will be saved.

270WIN · 01-12-2015 10:01pm

this new road should be re labelled the adare bypass and stop calling it the foynes to limerick road...

the adare element will be a 100km dual carriageway

a lot of people there tonight saying that this is a con job...foynes part of road is being downgraded already..its all about adare

Cookiemunster · 01-12-2015 10:48pm

270WIN wrote: »

this new road should be re labelled the adare bypass and stop calling it the foynes to limerick road...

the adare element will be a 100km dual carriageway

a lot of people there tonight saying that this is a con job...foynes part of road is being downgraded already..its all about adare

Don't you mean the N21 from Adare to Rathkeale will be dual carriageway? Which is a bit more than just the Adare bypass.
It's called the Foynes to Limerick road because it's taking port traffic off the N69 and putting it on the new road. If the N21 wasn't included then it would all have been single carriageway. The N21 justifies dual carriageway due to traffic volumes, the rest doesn't. Therefore the Foynes part isn't being downgraded.

Vanquished · 01-12-2015 11:15pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Wonder how this'll be numbered. Will the existing N69 be downgraded? I'm thinking not as it's a tourist route, no?

In which case the new Rathkeale-Foynes road will need a new number.

I reckon it'll be a motorway from Adare to the Rathkeale bypass.

I would imagine the new N69 will begin at the future junction on the Rathkeale bypass before linking up with the existing N69 in the vicinity of Foynes. The current route from its junction with the N18 near the Irish Cement facility at Castlemungret would be downgraded to a Regional road in line with the established policy in relation to superseded national routes.

I think it'll be M21 as far as Rathkeale too.

Vanquished · 01-12-2015 11:33pm

270WIN wrote: »

this new road should be re labelled the adare bypass and stop calling it the foynes to limerick road...

the adare element will be a 100km dual carriageway

a lot of people there tonight saying that this is a con job...foynes part of road is being downgraded already..its all about adare

A con job? Really?

I think it's the most sensible, rational route option as it utilises existing infrastructure which has the capacity to accommodate extra traffic volumes i.e. the M20.

It will provide a new high quality route for both N21 traffic and Foynes bound traffic. The new N69 element will more than likely comprise of a 100kph single carriageway spur providing fast, safe, direct access to the port and village.

Building two new large scale, greenfield National road projects in relatively close proximity would have been an obscene waste of money!

marno21 · 02-12-2015 3:55am

This could be numbered the N34

The present N69 isn't the N69 because of Foynes but rather it's a tourist route/scenic route and also the Tralee/Listowel/Tarbert route

Will be interesting to see alright.

YeaYeaSure · 02-12-2015 9:51am

Ha, some shambles. The whole point of this was meant to be an upgrading of the Foynes Limerick route. Paid for entirely by Europe. What we have gotten is an Adare bypass with a small spur route for Foynes. The government appear to have pulled the wool over the Eyes of the lads in Europe.

The bottleneck in Newcastle West will be far worse than Adare now as well.

Deedsie · 02-12-2015 9:57am

As long as the spur road off the Adare bypass is future proofed that it could be expanded to a dual carriageway if the traffic numbers between Foynes and Limerick increased. Other than that it seems like a sensible approach.

guylikeme · 02-12-2015 10:09am

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

Ha, some shambles. The whole point of this was meant to be an upgrading of the Foynes Limerick route. Paid for entirely by Europe. What we have gotten is an Adare bypass with a small spur route for Foynes. The government appear to have pulled the wool over the Eyes of the lads in Europe.

The bottleneck in Newcastle West will be far worse than Adare now as well.

All of the above are steps in the right direction. NCW is a bottleneck as it is. Those commuting to Limerick will thank the gov if they did indeed pull the wool!

YeaYeaSure · 02-12-2015 10:12am

guylikeme wrote: »

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

Ha, some shambles. The whole point of this was meant to be an upgrading of the Foynes Limerick route. Paid for entirely by Europe. What we have gotten is an Adare bypass with a small spur route for Foynes. The government appear to have pulled the wool over the Eyes of the lads in Europe.

The bottleneck in Newcastle West will be far worse than Adare now as well.

All of the above are steps in the right direction. NCW is a bottleneck as it is. Those commuting to Limerick will thank the gov if they did indeed pull the wool!

Any commuters through Adare yes . It really won't benefit N69 users too much and now I'm sure the road will get less funding for a road that is already in very poor repair.

Treepole · 02-12-2015 10:13am

guylikeme wrote: »

All of the above are steps in the right direction. NCW is a bottleneck as it is. Those commuting to Limerick will thank the gov if they did indeed pull the wool!

Not those who commute on the N69 I'd say though.

Trucks won't use the new road if they are heading up the west coast or into the city. The idiocy of not having a direct access point to the city from the N21 will also be magnified now as well.

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2015 11:38am

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

Ha, some shambles. The whole point of this was meant to be an upgrading of the Foynes Limerick route. Paid for entirely by Europe. What we have gotten is an Adare bypass with a small spur route for Foynes. The government appear to have pulled the wool over the Eyes of the lads in Europe.

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

Any commuters through Adare yes . It really won't benefit N69 users too much and now I'm sure the road will get less funding for a road that is already in very poor repair.

It was never meant to improve the N69 for commuters. It's purpose is and always has been to take HGVs off the N69 and get them to the motorway network on a better road.

Treepole wrote: »

Not those who commute on the N69 I'd say though.

Trucks won't use the new road if they are heading up the west coast or into the city. The idiocy of not having a direct access point to the city from the N21 will also be magnified now as well.

Why won't trucks use the new road? Wide straight single lane 100Km/h road and dual carriage way which has junctions with the N20, N18 and M7 versus a narrow winding road with some dodgy bridges which goes through the center of 3 villages. The M7/N18 junction is also only 2km from the N18 dock road junction.

Also many more HGVs will be going East and South than those crossing the river.

YeaYeaSure · 02-12-2015 11:46am

If it was never meant to help n69 commuters why have they gone out of their way to help commuters bypass adare I wonder.

Deedsie · 02-12-2015 12:02pm

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

If it was never meant to help n69 commuters why have they gone out of their way to help commuters bypass adare I wonder.

The N21 was far more worthy of relief and also removing haulage traffic from the N69 should improve travel times for commuters on this road.

Vanquished · 02-12-2015 12:30pm

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

If it was never meant to help n69 commuters why have they gone out of their way to help commuters bypass adare I wonder.

Adare is being bypassed because the road is inadequate, is carrying traffic levels well over it's design capacity and is a major bottleneck on a strategic national route!

You can also factor in the pathetic situation where circa 15,000 vehicles per day trundle through the streets of a picturesque heritage village!

kevin7 · 02-12-2015 1:04pm

That looks like a very good route choice.

Economical in that it achieves a heck of a lot of badly lacking infrastructure in a very well thought out way :

HGV traffic from Foynes to the rest of the road network.

Adare bypass : arguably Ireland's worst current bottleneck and hard to comprehend that it has been in such a state of chaos for so long without getting addressed.

Big improvement to the N21 making it a quick drive now as far as Rathkeale. This is the main route between Dublin and Kerry and, among other benefits, improving journey times here is going to help the Kerry tourism industry.

A route from Foynes to the motorway around Limerick which follows the old route (Askeaton, Clarina, Mungret) would only achieve one of the above, leaving the others still as outstanding and badly needed.

Its good to see a bit of logical thinking going on here.

Imagine if the northerly route was chosen and we eventually did the badly needed improvements to the N21. Just think how easy it would be to look back in 20 years time and say how stupid the lack of planning was back in those bad old days of 2015.

Celebrate getting this decision right.

AugustusMinimus · 02-12-2015 1:09pm

Absolutely beyond belief that anyone can be complaining about this scheme.

It's win win in almost all aspects.

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2015 1:20pm

The strangest thing about the people complaining about a con job is that none of the 4 options followed the N69 into the Dock Road and three of them bypassed Adare.
Is the fact that they made the decision to go with the route that benefitted the most people a surprise to anyone else?

Treepole · 02-12-2015 1:22pm

Vanquished wrote: »

Adare is being bypassed because the road is inadequate, is carrying traffic levels well over it's design capacity and is a major bottleneck on a strategic national route!

You can also factor in the pathetic situation where circa 15,000 vehicles per day trundle through the streets of a picturesque heritage village!

Your point would be valid if that was the aim of the project.
If you look at the title of the thread you might have a clue as to what it was supposed to be about.

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2015 1:28pm

Treepole wrote: »

Your point would be valid if that was the aim of the project.
If you look at the title of the thread you might have a clue as to what it was supposed to be about.

The aim of the project is to create a route between the port of Foynes and the motorway network which has the capacity to take extra HGV traffic to allow the port to expand and to remove this traffic from the N69.
This route does all of this while also bypassing Adare and upgrading a large section of the N21.

And while the thread might have N69 in the title, the project doesn't. It's the 'Foynes to Limerick Road Improvement Scheme'.

Treepole · 02-12-2015 1:43pm

Look the Government have quiet cleverly (and blatantly) used Foynes as an excuse to get the EU to pay for a different project which has been promised for many years.

This project is obviously far more about bypassing Adare than it is about providing a link to Foynes. It actually suits me much better that it wasn't the red route that was chosen as it would have affected my family farm, but as a solution for Foynes it was the best route.

Vanquished · 02-12-2015 1:53pm

Treepole wrote: »

Your point would be valid if that was the aim of the project.
If you look at the title of the thread you might have a clue as to what it was supposed to be about.

I think you will find that the thread title was decided upon by a poster and not anyone with any influence on the selection of the route for an infrastructural project! :rolleyes:

ongarboy · 02-12-2015 1:57pm

Delighted with the preferred route option too. The fact there will be continuous DC to Rathkeale is great and hopefully will shave an average 15 mins off my regular Tralee/Dublin journeys.

It will be interesting to see if traffic flows through NCW will deteriorate upon the opening of the improved stretch as has been the case with other bottlenecks once new motorway/DC sections ended prior to those towns/villages. (eg I don't think Adare was ever that bad when you had the relatively slower moving traffic coming from Patrickswell prior to the opening of the M20 but now traffic often has to suddenly go from 120kph to a halt sometimes before the motorway even ends.)

Deedsie · 02-12-2015 2:36pm

Treepole wrote: »

Look the Government have quiet cleverly (and blatantly) used Foynes as an excuse to get the EU to pay for a different project which has been promised for many years.

This project is obviously far more about bypassing Adare than it is about providing a link to Foynes. It actually suits me much better that it wasn't the red route that was chosen as it would have affected my family farm, but as a solution for Foynes it was the best route.

I hate those clever governments...

Chris_5339762 · 02-12-2015 9:16pm

YeaYeaSure wrote: »

If it was never meant to help n69 commuters why have they gone out of their way to help commuters bypass adare I wonder.

Because using the TEN-T network funded by Europe to bypass Adare primarily and give a decent enough link to Foynes is one of the cleverest things the government/NRA have done in recent times.

clappyhappy · 02-12-2015 11:54pm

My brother and his family got notice today that the proposed road will be going right through their home. To say they are devastated is an understatement. Has been the family home for over 70 years, 8 years ago they completely renovated the house. Thousands has been spent landscaping and building stone walls around it. Eldest just started school in Croagh, they are at a loss now as to where they can buy and build again. I know some one has to disturbed but it's such a shame for them.

Deedsie · 03-12-2015 12:28am

clappyhappy wrote: »

My brother and his family got notice today that the proposed road will be going right through their home. To say they are devastated is an understatement. Has been the family home for over 70 years, 8 years ago they completely renovated the house. Thousands has been spent landscaping and building stone walls around it. Eldest just started school in Croagh, they are at a loss now as to where they can buy and build again. I know some one has to disturbed but it's such a shame for them.

That's rough, it's a shame when people who are so settled in an area have to be moved for these projects. I hope they are well compensated anyway and they find an even better location to build.

ellieh1 · 03-12-2015 12:35am

New route is going through my place of work.....uncertainty of what will happen next is scary!!

Cookiemunster · 03-12-2015 12:44am

Aren't we were still at the stage that the corridor is still 300m wide. I'm pretty sure that the final alignment, which will only be 30-40m wide, hasn't been decided yet and these properties may still be up to 250m away from the new road.

EDIT

Indeed it still is 300m wide.

The preferred route corridor is indicative and 300m wide, within which the road alignment is likely to be developed. Junction locations and types will be developed during the route development process. The purpose of the public display is to inform the public of the preferred route corridor and to afford the opportunity for the public to engage in the process and to raise queries, concerns and comments for consideration as part of the detailed design of the road alignment within the preferred route corridor.

People may have been told that they are in the corridor, but they've taken it up incorrectly if they think that definitely means that their property is to be demolished.

marno21 · 03-12-2015 3:09am

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/new-limerick-motorway-to-bypass-adare-traffic-bottleneck-369132.html

Irish Examiner reporting road will open in 2024. Hopefully that's wrong and it'll be fast-tracked. Not sure I can take looking at Adare for another 8 years

The N21 Adare-Abbeyfeale (now N21 Rathkeale-Abbeyfeale) should be expidited too, Newcastlewest will be the new Adare by 2024 if the motorway is open by then

Cookiemunster · 03-12-2015 10:23am

8 years seem a bit long alright. From now you have detailed design, EIS and planning, CPO, tender and finally build. I can't see how it couldn't be under construction by 2019.

spacetweek · 03-12-2015 4:37pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Because using the TEN-T network funded by Europe to bypass Adare primarily and give a decent enough link to Foynes is one of the cleverest things the government/NRA have done in recent times.

Every other EU country does things like this, I don't see why we shouldn't milk it a bit.

Leonard Hofstadter · 04-12-2015 2:18am

I'm delighted with the route choice, a (rare) stroke of genius by the Government and a Government quango.

Once this is done, there will be a proper road between Foynes/Askeaton and Limerick, with direct connections up to Tuam/Galway (by the time this is done) and Dublin/East Coast/Dundalk and the North.

Best of all, they're getting the EU to pay for an Adare bypass, something that is so long overdue, can't wait to never be stuck in Adare once more.

This road won't just improve journey times and access from the Mid-West/West/East to Tralee, Abbeyfeale and Castleisland, it also gives Foynes and Askeaton direct access to the motorway network (as noted) and also makes Tarbert and Ballybunion easier to get to as there will be a high quality road from Limerick to Foynes.

There will now be no stops between Newcastle and Limerick (well Croagh won't be bypass but one never gets held up there at present), but as others have noted, it will shift the bottleneck that is Adare down to Newcastle and will make that town a lot more congested. Nonetheless, it will be fantastic for so much of Kerry, not to mention giving the long suffering residents of Adare some relief.

For residents of Kildimo/Mungret there won't be anything like the volume of HGV traffic going through these villages and some of the car traffic will be going on the motorway, so this will still benefit these areas as there will be far less traffic on the roads (especially HGVs), so it will make Limerick more accessible.

How anyone could think the chosen route is bad is beyond a mystery to me

.

marno21 · 04-12-2015 2:31am

captainspeed wrote: »

I'm delighted with the route choice, a (rare) stroke of genius by the Government and a Government quango.

Once this is done, there will be a proper road between Foynes/Askeaton and Limerick, with direct connections up to Tuam/Galway (by the time this is done) and Dublin/East Coast/Dundalk and the North.

Best of all, they're getting the EU to pay for an Adare bypass, something that is so long overdue, can't wait to never be stuck in Adare once more.

This road won't just improve journey times and access from the Mid-West/West/East to Tralee, Abbeyfeale and Castleisland, it also gives Foynes and Askeaton direct access to the motorway network (as noted) and also makes Tarbert and Ballybunion easier to get to as there will be a high quality road from Limerick to Foynes.

There will now be no stops between Newcastle and Limerick (well Croagh won't be bypass but one never gets held up there at present), but as others have noted, it will shift the bottleneck that is Adare down to Newcastle and will make that town a lot more congested. Nonetheless, it will be fantastic for so much of Kerry, not to mention giving the long suffering residents of Adare some relief.

For residents of Kildimo/Mungret there won't be anything like the volume of HGV traffic going through these villages and some of the car traffic will be going on the motorway, so this will still benefit these areas as there will be far less traffic on the roads (especially HGVs), so it will make Limerick more accessible.

How anyone could think the chosen route is bad is beyond a mystery to me.

Croagh will be bypassed. The confirmed route for this stretches as far as the R518 junction on the present Rathkeale bypass

Deedsie · 04-12-2015 8:49am

Not only will this road connect to the motorway network to Limerick, Galway & Dublin. Once the M20 is built, Foynes will be already connected to that road too.

nordydan · 04-12-2015 2:43pm

ellieh1 wrote: »

New route is going through my place of work.....uncertainty of what will happen next is scary!!

Most commuters would love to have a motorway right through their office. Get over yourself...

Conba · 04-12-2015 6:28pm

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Examiner reporting road will open in 2024.

Imagine, we'll most likely have a reasonable number of fully autonomous cars on the road by then.

Leonard Hofstadter · 04-12-2015 9:56pm

marno21 wrote: »

Croagh will be bypassed. The confirmed route for this stretches as far as the R518 junction on the present Rathkeale bypass

Thanks, wasn't aware of that. So, a straight run between Newcastle and Limerick in the not too distant future, then. I hope they make it a motorway as far as Rathkeale, the N21 is a very busy road as it stands and once this road is up and running, will be funnelling additional traffic as anyone travelling from Askeaton all the way back towards Listowel/Ballybunion will be using this road instead of the N69 for Limerick/Dublin.

Another good point was raised about access to Cork, it makes the M20 all the more urgent. At the moment the best way to go to Cork from Foynes is over to Newcastlewest, then Feohanagh, Dromcollagher, Lisgriffin (though not if you have a HGV as it's a very narrow road in parts), and then the N20 from Mallow. When this new road is open and the M20 is eventually built it will be considerably longer than the route I've just outlined (about 20 km), so it will be interesting to see how much of a time saver it will be. The more of it that is 120 km/h the more likely this road will be more popular, though trucks of course are limited to 80 so they may decide that the old road is worth it because it's 20 km shorter. For cars the new road will probably be quicker, though.

D Trent · 04-12-2015 10:01pm

captainspeed wrote: »

Thanks, wasn't aware of that. So, a straight run between Newcastle and Limerick in the not too distant future, then. I hope they make it a motorway as far as Rathkeale, the N21 is a very busy road as it stands and once this road is up and running, will be funnelling additional traffic as anyone travelling from Askeaton all the way back towards Listowel/Ballybunion will be using this road instead of the N69 for Limerick/Dublin.

Another good point was raised about access to Cork, it makes the M20 all the more urgent. At the moment the best way to go to Cork from Foynes is over to Newcastlewest, then Feohanagh, Dromcollagher, Lisgriffin (though not if you have a HGV as it's a very narrow road in parts), and then the N20 from Mallow. When this new road is open and the M20 is eventually built it will be considerably longer than the route I've just outlined (about 20 km), so it will be interesting to see how much of a time saver it will be. The more of it that is 120 km/h the more likely this road will be more popular, though trucks of course are limited to 80 so they may decide that the old road is worth it because it's 20 km shorter. For cars the new road will probably be quicker, though.

90 km/h on motorway for Artics and Rigids

Leonard Hofstadter · 04-12-2015 10:35pm

D Trent wrote: »

90 km/h on motorway for Artics and Rigids

I thought they were limited to 90 under EU rules, but under Irish law the limit was 80? Or was the motorway/dual carriageway limit changed the same time they changed the speed limits for buses from 80 to 100 on motorways and DCs?

L1011 · 04-12-2015 10:52pm

captainspeed wrote: »

I thought they were limited to 90 under EU rules, but under Irish law the limit was 80? Or was the motorway/dual carriageway limit changed the same time they changed the speed limits for buses from 80 to 100 on motorways and DCs?

Yes, it was brought to 90 (and the rule on vehicles in the outer lane was changed to 90 at the same time)

marno21 · 10-12-2015 3:51am

The overbridge for the L1427 (old N21, which, if the Adare bypass element is a motorway will presumably be the alternative route for the section from the end of the M20 DC to the Woodlands R/A) looks to be too narrow to fit a full DC under it. Anyone else notice this?

Vanquished · 10-12-2015 12:23pm

marno21 wrote: »

The overbridge for the L1427 (old N21, which, if the Adare bypass element is a motorway will presumably be the alternative route for the section from the end of the M20 DC to the Woodlands R/A) looks to be too narrow to fit a full DC under it. Anyone else notice this?

No it'll fit alright. They will just drop the hard shoulders as they did with similar bridges on the Nenagh bypass when it was reconfigured as a motorway.

rliston · 10-12-2015 4:51pm

marno21 wrote: »

The overbridge for the L1427 (old N21, which, if the Adare bypass element is a motorway will presumably be the alternative route for the section from the end of the M20 DC to the Woodlands R/A) looks to be too narrow to fit a full DC under it. Anyone else notice this?

I was watching that a few days ago while sitting in traffic. Even without any hard shoulders it would appear to be too narrow. The hard shoulder seems to be that bit narrower under the bridge than on the approach at either side.

Cookiemunster · 10-12-2015 5:19pm

rliston wrote: »

I was watching that a few days ago while sitting in traffic. Even without any hard shoulders it would appear to be too narrow. The hard shoulder seems to be that bit narrower under the bridge than on the approach at either side.

The road may not use this bridge. It could veer North or South of the bridge from the last M20 junction or they could even demolish and rebuild the bridge.

marno21 · 10-12-2015 6:36pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The road may not use this bridge. It could veer North or South of the bridge from the last M20 junction or they could even demolish and rebuild the bridge.

The route corridor revealed last week shows it using the realigned N21 from the present junction from the M20 to the junction with the old N21 (L1427) just before the Woodlands R/A.

Cookiemunster · 10-12-2015 7:10pm

marno21 wrote: »

The route corridor revealed last week shows it using the realigned N21 from the present junction from the M20 to the junction with the old N21 (L1427) just before the Woodlands R/A.

The route corridor isn't written in stone. The website say this. The preferred route corridor is indicative and 300m wide, within which the road alignment is likely to be developed. Junction locations and types will be developed during the route development process.

It's possible that when detailed design occurs that they'll move outside the corridor.

Irish_rat · 10-12-2015 7:48pm

This is a very exciting scheme, it's very close to home and would reduce travel times drastically.

Adare along with Claregalway are the worst bottlenecks in the country right now. Mind you the M50 is like a car park most days of the week.

This will reduce journey times by half an hour at peak times easily.

Will this be Motorway or HQDC?

marno21 · 10-12-2015 8:28pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The route corridor isn't written in stone. The website say this. The preferred route corridor is indicative and 300m wide, within which the road alignment is likely to be developed. Junction locations and types will be developed during the route development process.

It's possible that when detailed design occurs that they'll move outside the corridor.

In order to keep costs down it would make sense that they would reuse this offline stretch of N21, especially seeing as they are also using the Rathkeale bypass which has 2 bridges where the N21 goes over the L12xx (Pallaskenry) and R518 where the grade seperated junction is.

M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

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