Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

BoatMad · 14-11-2015 03:04AM

Answering violence with violence is a vicious circle that solves nothing and only leaves us bitter.

What a silly little comment, whole courses of histories , countries created , destroyed , as a result of violence.

1000s of conflicts are resolved by violence , often it's the only way. The problem today is we ha e begun to beleive our own pacifist propaganda that we can talk our way out of conflicts.

What we must accept is that military conflicts are messy affairs. But we in the west have unsurpassed military might. What we don't have is the resolve to act mercilessly and our enmities Ray on that softness , as a result innocents die at a concert.

As hollande said tonight " we will wage a war that will be pitiless " . Now we must put away such pacifist opinions and resolve to utterly destroy our enemies. In that we , the westm have the best firepower advantage the world has ever seen.

Hrududu · 14-11-2015 03:04AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why are people talking about Hitler?

Step 1: people talk about the events in Paris
Step 2: thread gets derailed while a bunch of people piss and moan about the IRA
Step 3: HITLER!

I'm guessing step 4 will move onto Santy or Twink or something equally important

Isaiah · 14-11-2015 03:05AM

Peregrine wrote: »

This thread has nothing to do with Hitler and what he believed or didn't believe. Stop it now.

Mod

People are comparing Hitler with Christians. I responded. Anyway seen this after I posted, noted.

BoJack Horseman · 14-11-2015 03:05AM

Shelby Warm Escalator wrote: »

And no one cared.

Speak for yourself.

Call Me Jimmy · 14-11-2015 03:05AM

For one, it takes a muslim to be radicalised by these *****. If you didn't believe in it in the first place, you're probably not going to join this particular cause.

The way I see it there are young muslims across europe who are the potential candidates for this stuff. To reduce radicalisation we can't ignore islam ffs. From the safety of my chair I can say an idealogical war has to be won as is the most likely to succeed... but if I was more directly affected it would be natural to be unsatisfied by that.

Fleawuss · 14-11-2015 03:05AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It just shouldn't even need to be stated. Anyone who honestly believes that this conflict is about religion is as much of a bumbling fool as anyone who believes that The Troubles were about religion. It's a front behind which it's easy to rally people, and nothing more than that.

I think you need to reconsider the roots of jihad. IS is a Puritan form of Islam and its killings are rooted in that. They kill non Sunnis as "rejectionists": they're not talking about flat rate income tax.

o1s1n · 14-11-2015 03:05AM

Shelby Warm Escalator wrote: »

But I thought all life is equally precious...?

So if all your family died in attack you'd be just as upset as if a family in Iraq died?

Okay then.

14-11-2015 03:06AM

efb wrote: »

You are very much a fan of segregation aren't you???

I like living in a republic

Iran is a republic, go live there. I think it would take you seeing your own flesh and blood killed in person by these barbarians for you to even think about changing your viewpoint. Any time you're asked a question by anyone you answer in a stupid rhetorical Whataboutery style. You and your ilk are the type of person that makes nearly everyone despise this PC crap. It's f*cking dangerous behaviour to be excusing these arseholes. Hope it doesn't come to your door but if it does, well wouldn't you feel stupid then.

Mountainsandh · 14-11-2015 03:06AM

Oat23 wrote: »

People who follow the news from the middle east will feel just as bad for the people of Beirut as they do for the people of Paris. We don't get wall to wall coverage of MENA bombings on TV over here because they are so common people will not watch the coverage. The news channels need to report what will get ratings and focusing all their attention on yet another bombing in MENA is not going to pay the bills.

Even arabic news channels are covering the French attacks and not discussing Beirut at all.

Yeah, I don't think it's a strong argument to say : "this happens elsewhere, nobody cares".

I care if I read/hear about it. I think of the little children killed, or men and women, just like me, minding their own business, killed. It makes me sad.

It's only natural though, to feel more affected when the distance is less. You know, just like when a car crash happens locally, to local people, you feel more shocked than if it happens miles away from where you live.

It's not to say you don't care about the other horrible happenings.

Billy86 · 14-11-2015 03:06AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - another one who didn't bother to read the post I was responding to before jumping in without doing a shred of research because if you had done some research you would know that in Bosnia in the mid 1990s it was the Muslims who were being massacred by a combined force of Bosnian Orthodox Christians and Bosnian Croat Catholics.

And that's before getting Lords Resistance Army in Africa, who murdered over 100,000 for not being Christian, or not being Christian enough.

But when it's Christians, it's different you see...

Jelle1880 · 14-11-2015 03:06AM

Peist2007 wrote: »

...........which all seems to have started happening since when.....?

Want me to draw a picture?

Please do.

Because as far as I know radical Islam has existed for a long, long time. And a lot of times it has surfaced without any influence from the West what so ever.

Stop blaming everything on the big bad West and look at the underlying problem.

Maybe you can also explain to me how people who are born in Europe and have grown up here turn to radical Islam and murder people in the same country. Because it sure as hell isn't due to bombs falling on their houses, dropped by US planes.

14-11-2015 03:06AM

For anyone curious, presumably a lot of the news posted here has been coming from Reddit's live thread, which is being updated fairly regularly.

Negative_G · 14-11-2015 03:07AM

martyos121 wrote: »

They don't have to respect any religion, but everyone is obligated not to disrespect any either and be tolerant of others and their beliefs. It isn't rocket science, people are taught this at a very young age.

People have no right to disrespect Muslims based on what happened. The vast, vast majority of them are as outraged as us of this atrocity, and are embarrassed of being labelled as terrorists.

The third time of asking.

If a christian chooses to live in a predominantly Muslim country are they free to practice their religion publicly and express their religion overtly?

I'm not talking hypothetically, I'm talking real life.

Care to comment or does it not suit your agenda?

0byme75341jo28 · 14-11-2015 03:07AM

o1s1n wrote: »

So if all your family died in attack you'd be just as upset as if a family in Iraq died?

Okay then.

No, I was arguing the opposite.

BoatMad · 14-11-2015 03:07AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

During the 3 week effort to degrade the Libyan military in 2011, both France & the UK started to run out of missiles.
Despite nominally lead by London & Paris, the heavy ordnance was largely left to a reluctant USA to deploy.

Remember, this is a Europe nowadays where the UK has on any given day 8-12 operational aircraft that it can deploy from home bases.
Where Germany has 10 operational attack helicopters & 22 operational transport helicopters.
Where Germany, engaging in a small NATO exercise had to fit a broom handle, painted black to an APC because they had no machine gun available.

With the only half way capable military already stretched (France) there is simply no will or no capability to project power into ISIS territory in any meaningful way.

No, America could..... Europe is too fat & too weak to do much at all & as always, Europe will defer to stronger powers to sort out ISIS.

I don't really care if the missiles raining down have " made in Berlin " or " made in Syracuse" quite frankly

Peist2007 · 14-11-2015 03:09AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed, all we must do is stiffen our resolve , we must be prepared to commit troops for decades , large parts of the Middle East will have to be returned to western military control

Great idea. That will stop guerrilla warfare like we have seen tonight. Does it not even register that the military occupation that you espouse above is the principal reason why tonight happened?

XR3i · 14-11-2015 03:09AM

Rhys Essien wrote: »

A bit of a stupidly worded statement.'what appears to be a terrorist attack'.Surely every mass killing is a 'terrorist attack'.

maybe berlin will be next

firemansam4 · 14-11-2015 03:10AM

Peist2007 wrote: »

He/she was attempting to refute my statement that this type of terrorism has become a thing in European cities since the US moved on Afghanistan in 2003 by saying that ISIS was around in the 1990s. Misrepresenting my argument but that is the main defence to what I, and you, are saying.

This all stems from western imperialism in the Middle East. Oil is being taken out of the ground in Iraq by US companies, not by Iraqi or Middle Eastern companies. The money from their resources is literally flowing over to the west. Then you have the use of brute force in these countries (how many hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq since the US moved there - astronomical). You add the fact that Islam can be interpreted in numerous ways and you have all of the seeds for extremism.

I definitely think that the Muslim community needs to do more to distance themselves from the extremists. But this type of extremism is borne from hatred of us for our meddlings in their countries and with their resources.

This is pure rubbish....

It is true that western policies and the involvement in Iraq and Libya has unsettled the region and allowed this extremism to manifest in the way it has now become.
But the extremism we see coming from ISIS now comes from a evil religious belief that anyone who does not conform or believe in there version of Islam are the enemy and should be destroyed.

o1s1n · 14-11-2015 03:10AM

moc moc a moc wrote: »

If you seriously think the band is the reason people are talking about this here, you're so naïve I don't even know how to express it.

This incident is international news, and the reason is that terrorist attacks are so rare in Western cities. Not so much in Beirut.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

I was trying to describe how things which are more relevant to your own situation resonate more. Its natural.

I had friends at the concert im Dublin. Therefore I can imagine them at the concert in Paris.

Lovely Bloke · 14-11-2015 03:11AM

Negative_G wrote: »

The third time of asking.

If a christian chooses to live in a predominantly Muslim country are they free to practice their religion publicly and express their religion overtly?

I'm not talking hypothetically, I'm talking real life.

Care to comment or does it not suit your agenda?

in fairness, it depends on the country.

Egypt, for example, has about 10% Cristians (I think, Coptic Christians), and they are most certainly not discriminated against.

I've also spent time in Bahrain, and although I don't self-identify as "christian" I never felt like I couldn't express myself, and neither did my wife.

Ulysses Gaze · 14-11-2015 03:11AM

Grayditch wrote: »

What's The Ra equivalent for Godwin's law?

Adams law?

meepins · 14-11-2015 03:12AM

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

I wonder what will the USA's response will be to this? I understand they have been doing drone operations etc., but much more is needed to be done to stop ISIS and Islamic extremists. This will be on their porch very shortly if they don't IMO.

What are you talking about? The U.S has such overwhelming air power that they could squash ISIS in no time. However they didn't do that, they created power vacuums all over and let them run amok.. it's almost as if there is something else going on.

Rhys Essien · 14-11-2015 03:12AM

It will be interesting to know if the lads who carried out the attack tonight,were linked with the fella carrying the guns who the Americans overpowered on the train recently in Paris.

Peist2007 · 14-11-2015 03:13AM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Because as far as I know radical Islam has existed for a long, long time. And a lot of times it has surfaced without any influence from the West what so ever.

Ok. So it has existed for a very long time. Fair enough. Can you tell me about the atrocities committed in European capitals by Muslim extremists prior to the night we all watched Kabul being bombed live on Sky News? You're ignoring the blatantly obvious, this is all borne from the bombing, drone attacks, armies occupying the middle east and the taking of their primary resource, their oil. I cannot break it down any more.

BoatMad · 14-11-2015 03:14AM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Great idea. That will stop guerrilla warfare like we have seen tonight. Does it not even register that the military occupation that you espouse above is the principal reason why tonight happened?

Actually it's the military de-occupation that caused it. There would be no ISIL if the west remained in the Middle East in force

The issue is that when we go in, we need the resolve to stay there for decades, rebuild these countries from the ground up , redraw borders , etc etc

It's the early leaving that causes the issues.

asherbassad · 14-11-2015 03:15AM

Has anybody stopped for a minute and asked "why" this happened or is happening?

The usual "they're barbarian rats" or "they hate us for our freedoms" will be frothed out by some. But really...why has this happened? It never happened 200 years ago when Muslims were just the same. It never happened even 60 years ago when these "mud people" knew how to use a telephone.

Why is it happening? Something caused this. Something must have triggerred this level of violence and murder.

And again.....qui bono?

moc moc a moc · 14-11-2015 03:15AM

o1s1n wrote: »

I was trying to describe how things which are more relevant to your own situation resonate more. Its natural.

Sorry, I figured afterward I may have misinterpreted your post and thus deleted mine.

hatrickpatrick · 14-11-2015 03:16AM

Grayditch wrote: »

What's The Ra equivalent for Godwin's law?

Godge's Law

Rhys Essien · 14-11-2015 03:16AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

I think you need to reconsider the roots of jihad. IS is a Puritan form of Islam and its killings are rooted in that. They kill non Sunnis as "rejectionists": they're not talking about flat rate income tax.

Correct.Isis are Salafists,the extreme form of Sunni Islam.

Negative_G · 14-11-2015 03:16AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

in fairness, it depends on the country.

Egypt, for example, has about 10% Cristians (I think, Coptic Christians), and they are most certainly not discriminated against.

I've also spent time in Bahrain, and although I don't self-identify as "christian" I never felt like I couldn't express myself, and neither did my wife.

Travel a short distance into Saudi and your experience would have been profoundly different. Especially for your wife.

Curious to know, if you were not married to your wife would you have been able to openly cohabitate with her in Bahrain?

Edit: I am assuming youve actually spent time living in the region, not just as a fleeting tourist.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

Comments