Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

Peist2007

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Once again somebody equates trying to understand what drives this ideology and offer solutions to get of it with being an "apologist".

Where did I say that anything that happened tonight wasn't a vile and unspeakably evil act? Can you show me where I said that? I simply said that if we force our governments to get the f*ck out of the Middle East and stop meddling in other countries' internal affairs, there will be fewer people who hate us as a society. That's all. It's not about apology, it's about a pragmatic solution to this nightmare.

He/she was attempting to refute my statement that this type of terrorism has become a thing in European cities since the US moved on Afghanistan in 2003 by saying that ISIS was around in the 1990s. Misrepresenting my argument but that is the main defence to what I, and you, are saying.

This all stems from western imperialism in the Middle East. Oil is being taken out of the ground in Iraq by US companies, not by Iraqi or Middle Eastern companies. The money from their resources is literally flowing over to the west. Then you have the use of brute force in these countries (how many hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq since the US moved there - astronomical). You add the fact that Islam can be interpreted in numerous ways and you have all of the seeds for extremism.

I definitely think that the Muslim community needs to do more to distance themselves from the extremists. But this type of extremism is borne from hatred of us for our meddlings in their countries and with their resources.

0byme75341jo28

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Maybe because it happens almost every day there ?

But by the logic of some people on this thread all lives are equal, why aren't we mourning their death in the same way we are the French?

moc moc a moc

El Weirdo wrote: »

Wow.


Just fucking wow.

How eloquent. And as if it's a surprise someone would feel closer to someone of their own nationality.

Is your brother not more important to you than your neighbour? If so, then "wow" yourself.

Mountainsandh

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Eagles of Death Metal. American band. Due to be playing next week in Dublin coincidentally. You must have looked too hard on a Google search!

Thanks.
No, I'm just looking at 20 minutes and TF1/lci really.
Kind of keeping an eye on my Facebook feed as well as some of my family live in Paris. The "check yourself safe" Facebook app is great, at least I know 3 sets of families are safe already.
One cousin is soccer mad, but I think I would have heard if he was near the stadium tonight.

uck51js9zml2yt

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

not reported widely but, Is bombed Beiruit today too http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34805466

Didn't realise that. My brother flew out to Lebanon on Wednesday with the UN.


Tonights activities in Paris are going to make it more difficult for refugees.

Happyman42

The thing is here, being rational, is that you will never be able to protect against attacks like this, unless you wipe out millions of people.
These where attacks that seem to have been carried out by a small number of people, (There are not swarms or hordes about to over run Europe) with a small amount of weaponry, with a death toll which is, while outrageous and tragic, relatively small, if you think what it 'could' have been.

You cannot stop this, without locking down the continent to a level that would make life unbearable to all who live here.

What we need to do is ask ourselves as 'westeners' 'Europeans', whatever, is why has this happened. Why is it that 20 years ago this was not a threat. And when we arrive at a rational and reasonable answer, try and change what is causing it.

Peist2007

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I highly doubt that any of them give a **** about their countries. I mean, they're killing their fellow countrymen simply because they interpret the same book slightly different.

They have been attacking Western targets for decades, it's just now that they have become richer that it's easier for them to target European cities. Before that it was Western targets located in the area, for example the 1998 bombings of the US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya.

I also think it has to do with shifting tactics, from attacking local targets to trying to strike fear into the European minds by hitting them close to home.

And I can't say it's failing.

Ignore the logic if you want. Your choice

Fleawuss

Isaiah wrote: »

Hitler was a Nazi who's beliefs were incompatible with Christianity. He believed in superhuman Aryan ancestors from Atlantis being the seed for the Aryan race of Germans and wanted to breed these traits back into the society through eugenics whilst exterminating no Aryans.

How is that Christiantiy?

He believed the Jews were Christ killers. He believed a lot of crap. But once you're baptized that's it. He was a RC. Now it would be a non sequitur just to say RC. Then murdered millions. Who would do that?

Why are people talking about Hitler?

Jelle1880

Isaiah wrote: »

Himmler was a Nazi. An entirely different and opposite belief system to Christianity. Christians believe all men are equal for one. How does this fit in with the nazi superman?

No person who believed in Nazism could be Christian. The two are opposing ideals.

Nazism took more ideas from Hindusm than from Christiany.

Unless you're gay or a woman, right ?
Only with the current Pope it seems some things are changing, but to claim that Christianity is based on equality for all is simply not true. At least the Roman Catholic Church isn't, I'm sure many individual Christians may feel that way though.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Once again somebody equates trying to understand what drives this ideology and offer solutions to get of it with being an "apologist".

Where did I say that anything that happened tonight wasn't a vile and unspeakably evil act? Can you show me where I said that? I simply said that if we force our governments to get the f*ck out of the Middle East and stop meddling in other countries' internal affairs, there will be fewer people who hate us as a society. That's all. It's not about apology, it's about a pragmatic solution to this nightmare.

It has no basis in reality though. These people do not hate the West because our governments meddle in their affairs, they hate us because we're not Muslims.

Pulling out every single soldier from the area would be a good start, but it won't solve anything.

Peist2007 wrote: »

Ignore the logic if you want. Your choice

I don't see any logic there, just people desperately trying to avoid the facts. Namely that the big issue here is radical Islam. The west may undoubtedly have pissed them off, but without that they would still believe in the same stuff they do now and perpetrate the same atrocities.

TedR

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Eagles of Death Metal. American band. Due to be playing next week in Dublin coincidentally. You must have looked too hard on a Google search!

Thats right, Californian band, sort of offshoot of Queens of the Stone Age..
The Dublin show was actually earlier this week, at Olympia. I worked on the show, they were nice people, hope they got out alright. I hear they did.
RIP the unfortunate people who didnt. Awful stuff, and for no good reason.

Rhys Essien

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Eagles of Death Metal. American band. Due to be playing next week in Dublin coincidentally. You must have looked too hard on a Google search!

Looks like Google failed you aswell.The band played in Dublin on Tuesday.

o1s1n

Shelby Warm Escalator wrote: »

Tonight in Beirut 43 people died in suicide bombings. Why is no one talking about them? It happens every fúcking day in the middle east and no one seems to care about the lives that are lost. My attitude isn't much different to most people's.

Because this was a band that played here during the week and it resonates with lots of people?

Or does your righteous indignation not see passed that?

Stheno

Fair play to SkyNews they have published the emergency number for the Irish dept of Foreign affairs repeatedly.

BoJack Horseman

BoatMad wrote: »

Western military might is simply immeasurably powerful in comparison to its enemies.

During the 3 week effort to degrade the Libyan military in 2011, both France & the UK started to run out of missiles.
Despite nominally lead by London & Paris, the heavy ordnance was largely left to a reluctant USA to deploy.

Remember, this is a Europe nowadays where the UK has on any given day 8-12 operational aircraft that it can deploy from home bases.
Where Germany has 10 operational attack helicopters & 22 operational transport helicopters.
Where Germany, engaging in a small NATO exercise had to fit a broom handle, painted black to an APC because they had no machine gun available.

With the only half way capable military already stretched (France) there is simply no will or no capability to project power into ISIS territory in any meaningful way.

It will now concentrate its mind on removing ISIL from the planet. The west could militarily run from one end of Syria to the other , in a week of it wanted too

No, America could..... Europe is too fat & too weak to do much at all & as always, Europe will defer to stronger powers to sort out ISIS.

Peregrine

This thread has nothing to do with Hitler and what he believed or didn't believe. Stop it now.

Mod

BorneTobyWilde

Negotiating with terrorists might save lives. I don't see anyone who would ever be willing to do that though.
Time to recognize them as a state and live them de fucck alone, if they'll do the same.
INSANE, But look at how negotiating sorted the North and all the pointless killing of innocent people.

NoviGlitzko

I wonder what will the USA's response will be to this? I understand they have been doing drone operations etc., but much more is needed to be done to stop ISIS and Islamic extremists. This will be on their porch very shortly if they don't IMO.

hatrickpatrick

Peist2007 wrote: »

I definitely think that the Muslim community needs to do more to distance themselves from the extremists. But this type of extremism is borne from hatred of us for our meddlings in their countries and with their resources.

It just shouldn't even need to be stated. Anyone who honestly believes that this conflict is about religion is as much of a bumbling fool as anyone who believes that The Troubles were about religion. It's a front behind which it's easy to rally people, and nothing more than that.

Oat23

Shelby Warm Escalator wrote: »

But by the logic of some people on this thread all lives are equal, why aren't we mourning their death in the same way we are the French?

People who follow the news from the middle east will feel just as bad for the people of Beirut as they do for the people of Paris. We don't get wall to wall coverage of MENA bombings on TV over here because they are so common people will not watch the coverage. The news channels need to report what will get ratings and focusing all their attention on yet another bombing in MENA is not going to pay the bills.

Even arabic news channels are covering the French attacks and not discussing Beirut at all.

BoJack Horseman

Shelby Warm Escalator wrote: »

Tonight in Beirut 43 people died in suicide bombings.

That was Thursday & it was literally all over the news.

Fleawuss

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are people talking about Hitler?

Because some posters are incapable of admitting that a version of Islam probably carried this out in keeping with their beliefs. Then it goes onto "atheists" are worse. Etc etc.

Isaiah

Ol' Donie wrote: »

He was raised a Catholic.

And my point, which couldn't have been more obvious, was that the mad bastards can be part of any religion.

To spell that out, today's mad bastards do not represent the overwhelming majority of muslims.

And thinking otherwise is the most dangerous thing that can come out of this, and exactly what these madmen want.

No the point is that Hitler was raised a Catholic but then went on to act out in a totally anti-Christian way and founded a new belief system that is opposed to Christian teachings.

The Islamists remain Muslim even when they are chopping heads off unbelievers or suicide bombing crowds of innocents. In fact this is the highest honor for them. To die a martyr killing unbelievers is a golden ticket to heaven for Muslims.

Grayditch

What's The Ra equivalent for Godwin's law?

pheasant tail

Can't believe after everything that happened tonight that some posters come in here to argue that some people have more of a right to live than others because they were born in a different part of the world

0byme75341jo28

o1s1n wrote: »

Because this was a band that played here during the week and it resonates with lots of people?

Or does your righteous indignation not see passed that?

But I thought all life is equally precious...?

Amazingfun

kleefarr wrote: »

Look at her here, taking away a German flag off a guy and hiding it. Madness indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vzMNG2fZc

Absolutely incredible video, a must watch.

0byme75341jo28

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That was Thursday & it was literally all over the news.

And no one cared.

Peist2007

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I don't see any logic there, just people desperately trying to avoid the facts. Namely that the big issue here is radical Islam. The west may undoubtedly have pissed them off, but without that they would still believe in the same stuff they do now and perpetrate the same atrocities.........

...........which all seems to have started happening since when.....?

Want me to draw a picture?

timthumbni

Anyone recommend any UK freeview news channels to watch the latest.??? The Brixton broadcasting corporation (BBC) is not really tickling my ivories despite their extortionate fees. They are coming across like some polytechnic student media affair.