GAA Infastructure

Boom__Boom · 02-11-2015 01:20PM

DragonKhan wrote: »

So you want the biggest County in Munster to have one of the smallest grounds. A ground so small that they would never again be able to host any Munster finals again and would leave people struggling for tickets for county Hurling finals?

Look at the attendances at the last few Cork county finals and there is no danger of anyone in Cork struggling to get county final tickets any time soon.

The geographic size of the county isn't really all that relevant to the size of the stadium - attendance at games is the key factor.

blue note · 02-11-2015 01:47PM

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Look at the attendances at the last few Cork county finals and there is no danger of anyone in Cork struggling to get county final tickets any time soon.

The geographic size of the county isn't really all that relevant to the size of the stadium - attendance at games is the key factor.

Pairc ui rinn would fit the county finals and league matches fine in reality. You'd get a better atmosphere in there too. Munster championship is where you actually could occasionally do with a stadium of its size, and munster already has more than it needs. We don't need a stadium like that in every county, certainly not for €70m.

Then there are the concerts but the GAA shouldn't be worrying about them basically.

nice_guy80 · 02-11-2015 05:36PM

How much did Thomand Park get?

blue note · 02-11-2015 05:50PM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How much did Thomand Park get?

A quick Google search tells me it received €3m in funding and the total build was about €40m. Some difference in value for money to the taxpayer there.

Figsy32 · 02-11-2015 05:54PM

blue note wrote: »

Pairc ui rinn would fit the county finals and league matches fine in reality. You'd get a better atmosphere in there too. Munster championship is where you actually could occasionally do with a stadium of its size, and munster already has more than it needs. We don't need a stadium like that in every county, certainly not for €70m.

Then there are the concerts but the GAA shouldn't be worrying about them basically.

Plenty room and far better atmosphere in Pairc Ui Rinn for the county finals this year. The only time we would need anything bigger than Pairc Ui Rinn is Kerry in football championship or a Munster hurling championship game. Spending such an obscene amounts a money for maybe 2 games a year on average is crazy in my view.

blue note · 02-11-2015 05:58PM

Figsy32 wrote: »

Plenty room and far better atmosphere in Pairc Ui Rinn for the county finals this year. The only time we would need anything bigger than Pairc Ui Rinn is Kerry in football championship or a Munster hurling championship game. Spending such an obscene amounts a money for maybe 2 games a year on average is crazy in my view.

Especially when those games could be played in the stadia in Kerry / Limerick / Tipp anyway. Even if it's built and it gets a couple of games a year it just means other white elephants will be underused even more. It sounds like a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. At the expense of the taxpayer and the clubs in cork.

ciarriaithuaidh · 02-11-2015 06:15PM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How much did Thomand Park get?

Thomond park redevelopment got €3m I seem to recall, from a total cost of €40m. Munster Rugby also received around €1m for the Musgrave park redevelopment in Cork.

A rational human being from outside Ireland would point out the stupidity of having a 26k and 44k stadium a mile apart in a city of 90,000 poulation (Limerick) along with a 10k capacity stadium a mile away from a new 45k capacity stadium costing an exorbitant amount (Cork)..but of course none of that really matters.

nice_guy80 · 03-11-2015 12:11AM

Plus, didn't they turn the Thomand Park pitch around, or something?

When you consider Southampton built a 32,000 seater stadium for £32 million

The Lost Sheep · 03-11-2015 12:55AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Plus, didn't they turn the Thomand Park pitch around, or something?

When you consider Southampton built a 32,000 seater stadium for £32 million

Its thomond.......
Pitch wasn't turned in Thomond but was turned around in Lansdowne Road for its redevelopment

J Cheever Loophole · 03-11-2015 09:45AM

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

A rational human being from outside Ireland would point out the stupidity of having a 26k and 44k stadium a mile apart in a city of 90,000 poulation (Limerick) along with a 10k capacity stadium a mile away from a new 45k capacity stadium costing an exorbitant amount (Cork)..but of course none of that really matters.

You're right of course. This situation always reminded me of many third world countries looking to have modern air forces, not because there was any real need, but because many of the neighbours had one.

The only rational explanation to be offered in this instance might be the intention to put in a bid for the 2023 Rugby Union World Cup?

homerjay2005 · 03-11-2015 11:34AM

im personally 100% behind the PUC development. Cork, as our second biggest City needs a top class stadium, i cant see why anybody would think its a bad idea, its only money and id rather it was spend on having a ground that will be around for decades as opposed to being spend on some byepass of a meaningless town in Cork or Limerick or wasted on some other brainless project that will have no benefit to sport in this country.

if we want to be getting Rugby World Cups, Youth football euros/world cups etc etc we need to have a good geographical stadiums and this is one of them. i cant wait for it to be finished and looking forward to a Munster final there in the near future.

those complaining about cities with multiple stadiums, you should take trips to other cities around Europe and you will see the standard of facilities in these countries - countries who have only 1 or 2 main sports there. we are supposedly a top-tier global economic country yet our sporting infrastructure is absolutely appalling.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its thomond.......
Pitch wasn't turned in Thomond but was turned around in Lansdowne Road for its redevelopment

wasn't touched in lansdown either, the pitch still runs parallel to the DART line.

blue note · 03-11-2015 11:39AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Cork, as our second biggest City needs a top class stadium

For what? A tiny number of games that can already be played elsewhere?

homerjay2005 · 03-11-2015 11:43AM

blue note wrote: »

For what? A tiny number of games that can already be played elsewhere?

define elsewhere?

why should a cork team have to play their big home games in other counties?

blue note · 03-11-2015 11:48AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

define elsewhere?

why should a cork team have to play their big home games in other counties?

Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. And for the same reason that any other county has to play their games elsewhere. Because that's where the stadium is and there isn't any justification for spending a massive amount of money on something that will be used once, maybe twice a year (and will lead to another of our stadia being used once or twice a year less).

€70m is an awful lot of money. How many hurling walls and coaches and all weather pitches and whatever else that money could pay for. If it was my county spending money like that I'd be furious.

homerjay2005 · 03-11-2015 11:55AM

blue note wrote: »

Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. And for the same reason that any other county has to play their games elsewhere. Because that's where the stadium is and there isn't any justification for spending a massive amount of money on something that will be used once, maybe twice a year (and will lead to another of our stadia being used once or twice a year less).

€70m is an awful lot of money. How many hurling walls and coaches and all weather pitches and whatever else that money could pay for. If it was my county spending money like that I'd be furious.

you do realise about 60%+ of that €70m is funded - it wouldnt go into a club or a coach, it would be put into building some needless road outside charleville or charlestown.

Kerry raised about €6m for a new training facility this year, that money was raised primarily for this development and nothing else - not one cent goes into club or coaches or the teams themselves. i cant imagine many people supporting the fundraising drive if it was for putting money into kilgarvin hurling or paying for 3 new coaches for the next 5 years. sames goes for Cork - they have this money raised due to the scope of the project, you cant just say "they have X amount of money for this, it should be spent on clubs and coaches" as it just doesnt work like that. the government and central council already have various schemes in place for that exact need.

Cork needs this stadium, everybody should get behind it.

munchkin_utd · 03-11-2015 12:01PM

the problem simply is the lack of regular fixtures and theres no sign of that changing any time soon.
And even if it did, would you need 50,000 capacity for a round robin munster hurling game or some sort of last 16 in the football?

blue note · 03-11-2015 12:10PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you do realise about 60%+ of that €70m is funded - it wouldnt go into a club or a coach, it would be put into building some needless road outside charleville or charlestown.

Kerry raised about €6m for a new training facility this year, that money was raised primarily for this development and nothing else - not one cent goes into club or coaches or the teams themselves. i cant imagine many people supporting the fundraising drive if it was for putting money into kilgarvin hurling or paying for 3 new coaches for the next 5 years. sames goes for Cork - they have this money raised due to the scope of the project, you cant just say "they have X amount of money for this, it should be spent on clubs and coaches" as it just doesnt work like that. the government and central council already have various schemes in place for that exact need.

Cork needs this stadium, everybody should get behind it.

I do realise a lot of the money won't go to the gaa. And it might go to roads or hospitals or a university or something instead. I'd much rather see that than it go on this stadium.

I still haven't seen a reason Cork or the gaa needs this stadium.

keane2097 · 03-11-2015 01:39PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you do realise about 60%+ of that €70m is funded - it wouldnt go into a club or a coach, it would be put into building some needless road outside charleville or charlestown.

Kerry raised about €6m for a new training facility this year, that money was raised primarily for this development and nothing else - not one cent goes into club or coaches or the teams themselves. i cant imagine many people supporting the fundraising drive if it was for putting money into kilgarvin hurling or paying for 3 new coaches for the next 5 years. sames goes for Cork - they have this money raised due to the scope of the project, you cant just say "they have X amount of money for this, it should be spent on clubs and coaches" as it just doesnt work like that. the government and central council already have various schemes in place for that exact need.

Cork needs this stadium, everybody should get behind it.

It's absolutely laughable that you can describe an infrastructure project as 'needless' and yet you think this white elephant that is literally needless is a great idea.

There will literally be zero occasions per year when this stupid stadium in its terrible location will be full, but spending €60M on infrastructure is needless. Man alive.

homerjay2005 · 03-11-2015 01:54PM

keane2097 wrote: »

It's absolutely laughable that you can describe an infrastructure project as 'needless' and yet you think this white elephant that is literally needless is a great idea.

There will literally be zero occasions per year when this stupid stadium in its terrible location will be full, but spending €60M on infrastructure is needless. Man alive.

so youd rather it was spent on a byepass of some random town in north munster instead of developing into a top class stadium?

the decision was made to develop it years ago, the stadium is knocked to the ground and millions already have been spent. not sure what else can be done now, Cork needs a big stadium.

blue note · 03-11-2015 01:58PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Cork needs a big stadium.

FOR WHAT!!!???

keane2097 · 03-11-2015 02:25PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so youd rather it was spent on a byepass of some random town in north munster instead of developing into a top class stadium?

Yes! Of course I would! The country is absolutely crying out for infrastructure, the second city whose vanity you're so worried about is connected to the third city by an embarrassment of a route for a start.

That's before we focus on why it is you think the only options that ever existed for this money were Pairc Ui Chaoimh or a Charleville bypass.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the decision was made to develop it years ago, the stadium is knocked to the ground and millions already have been spent. not sure what else can be done now

TBH if it was up to me they would sell the land and use the perfectly adequate stadiums they already have, or alternatively at the very least revise their plans dramatically to build a(nother) stadium to match the level of attendance they will ever get.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Cork needs a big stadium.

It doesn't, even a small bit. Even if we believe it does it is absolutely disgusting to spend €60M on one.

Mal-Adjusted · 03-11-2015 03:51PM

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition. What I don't understand is why the only consideration always seems to be capacity. I would much prefer a modern, covered stadium that was built around realistic expectations rather than aspiration ones.

ciarriaithuaidh · 03-11-2015 04:18PM

blue note wrote: »

Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. And for the same reason that any other county has to play their games elsewhere. Because that's where the stadium is and there isn't any justification for spending a massive amount of money on something that will be used once, maybe twice a year (and will lead to another of our stadia being used once or twice a year less).

€70m is an awful lot of money. How many hurling walls and coaches and all weather pitches and whatever else that money could pay for. If it was my county spending money like that I'd be furious.

It's a fair point. Yes, there needs to be a decent stadium in Cork, but this project is overblown and the "centre of excellence" is a box-ticking sham of an exercise.
Ironic that this is Cork aswell, which for the biggest county geographically has a tiny number of Games Develoment officers, 5 or so i believe. That and being a dual county on top of things. One could easily conclude that Cork GAA have their priorities in the wrong order.

homerjay2005 · 03-11-2015 04:26PM

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition.

and that is up to each county to upgrade them. slowly but surely this process is getting there however - theres multiple county boards who have developed their stadiums in recent years and theres more planned - Antrim, Cork etc etc.

ArmaniJeanss · 03-11-2015 04:46PM

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition. What I don't understand is why the only consideration always seems to be capacity. I would much prefer a modern, covered stadium that was built around realistic expectations rather than aspiration ones.

Problem is the fixture allocation people who choose the venues based on expected number of people who want to see the game.
This means all counties err on the side of making the capacity as big as possible as it maximises your chances of hosting games.

It would need a sea change at all levels though to accept that if 30K tickets could be sold that it's still perfectly OK to have it in a modern comfy 25K stadium rather than a squished 40K stadium.

Pete_Cavan · 03-11-2015 05:30PM

I think the capacity here is a red herring. 24k of the capacity of the new stadium will be from the existing terraces behind the goals. The stands on either side needed to be knocked and rebuilt for basic comfort and safety reasons anyway. Even building stands like the main stand in O’Connor Park (good quality stand but nothing spectacular) on each side will add 14-16k to the capacity. That brings it up to around the 40k mark and that is just basic necessary works which the stadium needs. Sure costs can be greatly reduced (should be able to build two stands like that in Tullamore plus pitch works, etc. for €20m) but reducing the capacity doesn’t really have any benefits.

If the available budget is cut, they should reduce the size of the proposed main stand. Looking at the plans, most of the cost is in the main stand which is a big structure and has a very large roof. Omitting the upper tier would mean a less complicated structure and smaller roof which would save a huge amount of money but would probably only reduce capacity by at most 5k.

Boom__Boom · 04-11-2015 09:08PM

Latest I've heard is that PUC project is at the very least €10m-€13m over budget - as that's what the rumoured price of the main contract is over the supposed budget of €67m . This main contract doesn't include the costs for a whole pile of other costs such as demolition costs, new roof for the stand, fees for architects, surveryors, solicitors, floodlights, overruns/cost of delays and a whole host of others. According to experienced people in the construction industry the total final cost won't be that far off €100m.

Apart from the cost side of things there are big issues elsewhere. One is the dismal response to the county draw. Also talks with a sponsor are not supposed to be going well and they look very unlikely to extend the deal. Don't be surprised if the new Cork GAA jersey isn't available by Christmas.

keane2097 · 04-11-2015 09:11PM

A criminal waste of money

Mal-Adjusted · 04-11-2015 11:13PM

Well, so far the best thing to come from the PuC clusterf*%k is that my club managed to get a rake of the old seats for a pittance. Green and White to match the jersey too!

shockframe · 05-11-2015 12:22AM

The plans for the puc were unrealistic to begin with.

40,000/45,000 or close to it might have been the norm 20 years ago but with the back door in place provincial crowds are unlikely to be sellouts anymore.Even the 2014 final there was 36,000 or so there. In a knockout game that would have been bigger but the days of munster providing the drama it once did are over.The football games against Kerry since 2001 have barely been half full. Even the recent club finals compared to its 70s heyday were well down in attendances. A stadium with 35,000 is adequate enough to me as Cork not only will get 1 or 2 games at max per year it isn’t central enough to warrant a qualifier or quarter final type game.

Talk of gigs is also fancy. It’s not as if Cork is short of music venues either. Acts like the Wild Beasts, Gary Numan and the Waterboys have all played the opera house in the last month or so.Hassle with promoters over the Springsteen gig in 2013 I believe. Anyways can you imagine arguing the merits of Kendrick Lamar or Vampire Weekend to the Cork County board.

Theres no doubt that PUC could do with a facelift but the current state of both codes looks disastrous. If the county stays in its current slump crowds will stay down. I was in a few places in Cork city during the summer and I couldn’t believe that there wasn’t one Cork flag flying anywhere.Supposedly it’s the same in the big towns like Ballincollig and Carrigaline. Compare that to the last decade (throw in 2010 at a push) when they were last successful-no shortage of colour then.If the teams are in mediocrity building a stadium won’t make any difference.

There seems to be this thinking of 'build it and they will come'. Nowadays people have every sport they could think of at the touch of a button not to mention Netflix or Spotify.The GAA is still important but there is a world of choice out there. Cork GAA is in a terrible state. People will seek out alternatives if its not run right.

I’d be in favour of Cork getting the ground up to a decent standard because it’s an excellent spot for a match and a few pints after but the way the thing has been proposed and handled is clearly not the way forward.

GAA Infastructure

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