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Couple with six children killed in Palestine

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  • Options
    #722
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    No sympathy for innocent non-combatant Israelis being attacked but sympathy for palestinians who enable the attackers? Nice.

    Sorry, but could you please define what constitutes 'enabling', and show where, in the BBC article, such a factor is referred to in regard to the expulsions?


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    #723
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    RustyNut wrote: »
    So you accept that the idf are legitimate military targets and Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

    Yes. Pity for you that the Settler != IDF
    RustyNut wrote: »
    On the basis that the vast majority of israeli casualties in the last big attack by the idf on Gaza were members of the illegal occupying force, more than 10 combatants for each civilian, then I think considering the weapons that were used it is reasonable to assume that all efforts were being made to hit legitimate military targets and not civilians.

    Unless you believe the IDF can be in two places at the same time, then the rockets aimed at civilian areas cannot have hit the troops shot while making incursions into the bank/gaza.

    RustyNut wrote: »
    The idf however with all their advanced "precision weaponry" slaughter more than twice as many innocent civilians as combatants, shows who the intended targets were.

    Methinks you do not know weaponry.
    You can precision guide a bomb to land within 10cm from a target, but guess what? Its still a bomb! And bombs tend to blow up! Surprising i know!


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    #724
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Now, to try and put this thread back on track and hopefully engender some discussion a little more enlightening that people hysterically screaming "racism" in every sentence, I24 posted an article with some good observations about the current wave of lone wolf attacks, the Israeli government and the Palestinian authority.

    http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/89030-151015-analysis-the-intifada-of-the-young-and-hopeless



    The PA tend to get a bit of a free ride in these discussions but over the last 20 years they have trousered billions in aid money with not a lot of it dripping down to the working class palestinians. Yasser Arafat was notoriously corrupt but an investigation into the financial affairs of the current PA leadership would probably show up corruption that makes FIFA look like childs play.

    If Israel was serious about peace we would not be having this conversation about the corruption of Palestinian society. In case you have not been watching Israeli news the Israeli officials have been convicted and jailed for abusing power so corruption goes both ways.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_public_officials_convicted_of_crimes_or_misdemeanors


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    #725
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    On Thursday, Israel's government released video and photos showing the boy alive in an Israeli hospital. It described the Palestinian leader's comments as "lies and incitement".
    I'm sorry, but WTF is "Israel's government" doing releasing this sort of material other than for PR? "Governments" sending out photos of children to the media is like something Putin or Mugabe would do.
    Do you have no clue whatsoever when you're being played?


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    #726
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Methinks you do not know weaponry.
    You can precision guide a bomb to land within 10cm from a target, but guess what? Its still a bomb! And bombs tend to blow up! Surprising i know!
    So you're telling me the IDF aims 10cm to the left of UN schools full of sleeping families that it disintegrates? Maybe you should tell the IDF that "bombs blow up"?


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    #727
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Yes. Pity for you that the Settler != IDF



    Unless you believe the IDF can be in two places at the same time, then the rockets aimed at civilian areas cannot have hit the troops shot while making incursions into the bank/gaza.




    Methinks you do not know weaponry.
    You can precision guide a bomb to land within 10cm from a target, but guess what? Its still a bomb! And bombs tend to blow up! Surprising i know!
    funny how they blow up over civilians only though.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #728
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    If Israel was serious about peace we would not be having this conversation about the corruption of Palestinian society. In case you have not been watching Israeli news the Israeli officials have been convicted and jailed for abusing power so corruption goes both ways.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_public_officials_convicted_of_crimes_or_misdemeanors

    The difference is that the Israelis have been tried and convicted in a court of law and been punished. How many Palestinian officials have been tried for corruption?


  • Options
    #729
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but WTF is "Israel's government" doing releasing this sort of material other than for PR? "Governments" sending out photos of children to the media is like something Putin or Mugabe would do.
    Do you have no clue whatsoever when you're being played?

    You're getting outraged at that? Seriously?

    Abbas alleged that the boy had been killed, allegations like that could stir up more attacks. The Israeli authorities put out the information to counter Abbas's lie and to calm matters. Also it would have let the young man's parents and family see that he is ok and not dead.


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    #730
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    end of the road wrote: »
    funny how they blow up over civilians only though.

    Its ghosts firing the rockets is it?
    Phantoms on the launch sites?

    If its civilians firing those rockets they've ceased to be "civilians"


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    #731
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    The difference is that the Israelis have been tried and convicted in a court of law and been punished. How many Palestinian officials have been tried for corruption?

    Palestinians have no visible signs of a police force that can protect them from Israeli incursions into the territory I don't see how they could possible prosecute corrupt officials.


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    #732
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    Isn't great that you can construct a formula in your head that allows you to reach conclusions that have no basis in fact.

    I find it amusing that you think that I've been "caught out" in anyway, because I said exactly what I meant to say in the exact way I meant to say it.

    What you find amusing is irrelevant to me, the pro-palestinians always seem like a rather humourless lot to me in any case. As for being caught out, what you said rather damages your moral credibility in this debate but that's your business.
    Nodin wrote: »
    You, however, have yet to outline how Palestinians might resist the occupation without using violence in the circumstances they are facing. You might share your ideas with us. I've been entirely honest in giving my opinion, so you could at least return the favour.

    Entirely honest? Well I'll let that one pass as I don't want to derail the thread.

    As to what the Palestinians should do? First when did I ever say I was going to lay down a strategy for the Palestinians? I'm not going to set out some 10 point plan for their success but they could start off by using non-violent means, it's worked in other disputes and conflicts. It may take time and discipline and it doesn't sate base instincts like revenge but it does put them on a higher moral plane whereas shooting and stabbing people just makes matters worse.

    They could also actually try persuading the Israeli people that a proper solution to these problems is in their best interests as well as being the right thing to do. There are a large amount of secular Israelis who want an end to this conflict but attacking Israelis just shuts them out of the debate and lets the likes of Netanyahu set the tone.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other things that they could do that don't involve assaults, murder, terror etc. Perhaps you have ideas for non-violent means of protest, you mentioned BDS for example, I certainly wouldn't knowingly purchase anything produced by settler farmers or in settler owned businesses and I'm not a fan of Sodastream.



    Nodin wrote: »
    O it does matter, as it imposes a price on colonisation which is currently absent.

    The price being death. If you can't see how making a statement like that damages your position then you're obviously not as self-aware as I thought you were.


  • Options
    #733
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Palestinians have no visible signs of a police force that can protect them from Israeli incursions into the territory I don't see how they could possible prosecute corrupt officials.

    Of course the Palestinians have a police force, one which has received large funding from foreign aid.


  • Options
    #734
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    You're getting outraged at that? Seriously?
    I'm not outraged TBH, because I can see straight through Zionist state PR. This isn't even the state broadcaster or anything, it's the Israeli state doing the PR. You simply wouldn't see the government leading propaganda like that in any normal civilized country.


  • Options
    #735
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    What you find amusing is irrelevant to me, the pro-palestinians always seem like a rather humourless lot to me in any case. As for being caught out, what you said rather damages your moral credibility in this debate but that's your business.



    Entirely honest? Well I'll let that one pass as I don't want to derail the thread.

    As to what the Palestinians should do? First when did I ever say I was going to lay down a strategy for the Palestinians? I'm not going to set out some 10 point plan for their success but they could start off by using non-violent means, it's worked in other disputes and conflicts. It may take time and discipline and it doesn't sate base instincts like revenge but it does put them on a higher moral plane whereas shooting and stabbing people just makes matters worse.

    They could also actually try persuading the Israeli people that a proper solution to these problems is in their best interests as well as being the right thing to do. There are a large amount of secular Israelis who want an end to this conflict but attacking Israelis just shuts them out of the debate and lets the likes of Netanyahu set the tone.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other things that they could do that don't involve assaults, murder, terror etc. Perhaps you have ideas for non-violent means of protest, you mentioned BDS for example, I certainly wouldn't knowingly purchase anything produced by settler farmers or in settler owned businesses and I'm not a fan of Sodastream.






    The price being death. If you can't see how making a statement like that damages your position then you're obviously not as self-aware as I thought you were.

    The Palestinians are split in half Gaza is controlled by the anti Fatah extremists. They way the West Bank is geographically configured makes it damn well difficult to find any consensus among Palestinians. Israel seems to think they have to deal with all the Palestinian factions instead of the current presiding administration in Ramallah.

    Israel has no authority to make peace with Hamas or other supposed rejectionist and sharia based groups, that does not confer power on them to destroy Palestinian lands in the West Bank and continue to hold onto the Golan Heights. Israel has to get the message that Palestinians have their own gvt and they must be negotiated with at all times.


  • Options
    #736
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Of course the Palestinians have a police force, one which has received large funding from foreign aid.

    Let them police their own streets.


  • Options
    #737
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Its ghosts firing the rockets is it?
    Phantoms on the launch sites?

    If its civilians firing those rockets they've ceased to be "civilians"
    the IDF hardly ever hit rocket launch sites. its mostly civilian areas and civilian buildings

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #738
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Let them police their own streets.

    And you think I disagree with that?


  • Options
    #739
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »

    As to what the (...............)just makes matters worse..

    So vague guff. Brilliant.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    They could also actually try persuading the Israeli people that a proper solution to these problems is in their best interests as well as being the right thing to do. There are a large amount of secular Israelis who want an end to this conflict but attacking Israelis just shuts them out of the debate and lets the likes of Netanyahu set the tone. ..

    Yes, just look how the Abbas years and its virtual non violence have stopped expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I'm sure there are plenty of other things that they could do that don't involve assaults, murder, terror etc. Perhaps you have ideas for non-violent means of protest, you mentioned BDS for example, I certainly wouldn't knowingly purchase anything produced by settler farmers or in settler owned businesses and I'm not a fan of Sodastream. ..

    There are many sides to a conlict,armed, peaceful, all simultaneously aiming at the same thing. The anti-apartheid movement outside SA took 30-40 years to build momentum and the Palestinians don't have that long.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    The price being death. If you can't see how making a statement like that damages your position then you're obviously not as self-aware as I thought you were.

    I'd suggest you are confused as to what my position is.


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    #740
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    end of the road wrote: »
    the IDF hardly ever hit rocket launch sites. its mostly civilian areas and civilian buildings
    Hardly surprising, considering that the rocket launch sites are in civilian areas and civilian buildings. The logic goes something like this:
    Fire rockets from densely-populated civilian area. 
IF (Israel retaliates) THEN 
    {Civilian casualties to parade on TV and stir up anti-Israel sentiment} 
ELSE 
    {Human Shield successful, rocket sites are safe for next time}
END IF
    Some folks here are still labouring under the delusion that the Hamas and other Palestinian leaders actually care about the safety of the people of Gaza or the West Bank. They don't. Back in the 1970s, Yasser Arafat explicitly encouraged Palestinian women to have as many babies as possible, with the aim of overwhelming Israel by sheer numbers. The tiny Gaza Strip now has a population of over 1.8 million and is one of the most densely populated parts of the world.

    What does that tell you about the value of human life there? To Hamas, the people of Gaza are a cheap resource to be used for political and propaganda purposes. Judging by the contents of these threads, its working, at least on Irish social media.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • Options
    #741
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,858 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Much, goes with jobs of that level. Difficult decisions must be made for the benefit of their respective nations.

    Wow, showing your true colours when it comes to terrorism. Just dismissing violence carried out by Britain and America as part of the job.

    I'm sure all those innocent families murdered at weddings will be fine about that.

    Amazing attitude to have when if you'd actually read what was in the media yesterday about US violence from drones killing 90% innocent people and the US lying about the victims.

    You're actually a terrorist apologist.


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    #742
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    You're actually a terrorist apologist.

    You're stretching, i mean reaaaaly stretching if you going to label america and britain as terrorists and hamas as freedom fighters.


  • Options
    #743
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    The anti-apartheid movement outside SA took 30-40 years to build momentum and the Palestinians don't have that long.

    What do you mean by that?

    They're not facing extinction by any means, population stats will tell you that.


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    #744
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    end of the road wrote: »
    the IDF hardly ever hit rocket launch sites. its mostly civilian areas and civilian buildings

    You said only.

    Its not cape canaveral. There are no dedicated launch pads.

    These guys come along, whack up a launchpad in a courtyard somewhere, launch, then leg it, despite being warned umpteen times not to use civilians as human shields.


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    #745
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you're telling me the IDF aims 10cm to the left of UN schools full of sleeping families that it disintegrates? Maybe you should tell the IDF that "bombs blow up"?

    Computers have no context. The guidance software in a bomb guides it to the target and nothing more. It has no awareness or understanding of what it is guiding the bomb to.

    What has failed is the intelligence gathering wing of the IDF.

    "Originally Posted by RustyNut viewpost.gif
    The idf however with all their advanced "precision weaponry" "



    The weapons are perfectly advanced, but advanced weaponry != accurate intelligence / sound orders.

    I was not making a point about the ethics of the bombing, merely pointing out the inconsistency. Not my fault, you among others didn't spot it.


  • Options
    #746
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    What do you mean by that?

    They're not facing extinction by any means, population stats will tell you that.

    The settlements will have expanded and enough land seizures taken place to render a contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank impossible. It's widely thought that at a certain stage, Israel will decide that its taken what it wants and call a halt in a "show of generosity", and leave the remainder as nominally self governing Palestinian bantustans.


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    #747
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bnt wrote: »
    Hardly surprising, (............) its working, at least on Irish social media.

    Why are you on about Hamas?


  • Options
    #748
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Yes. Pity for you that the Settler != IDF

    Settlers are armed agents of the israeli government who couldn't continue the illegal occupation and colonization of the land they live on without the permission, assistance, subsidy and protection of the israeli government that they represent. They are the physical embodiment of the illegal expansionist colonial policies of the zionist regime and the Palestinian people have the right to resist this illegal (see Geneva Convention. I would post a link but you don't like that) aggression.
    CruelCoin wrote: »
    These guys come along, whack up a launchpad in a courtyard somewhere, launch, then leg it, despite being warned umpteen times not to use civilians as human shields.

    Then, long after the resistance fighters have left the area the idf bomb the civilians that remain, again in contravention of the Geniva convention.


  • Options
    #749
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,858 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    You're stretching, i mean reaaaaly stretching if you going to label america and britain as terrorists and hamas as freedom fighters.

    The US and its lackey, Britain, love nothing more than unleashing violence on other people.

    Hamas fights the occupation of Palestinian territory.

    Are you actually arguing with those facts? :confused:


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    #750
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bnt wrote: »
    Hardly surprising, considering that the rocket launch sites are in civilian areas and civilian buildings. The logic goes something like this:
    Fire rockets from densely-populated civilian area.
IF (Israel retaliates) THEN
    {Civilian casualties to parade on TV and stir up anti-Israel sentiment}
ELSE
    {Human Shield successful, rocket sites are safe for next time}
END IF
    Some folks here are still labouring under the delusion that the Hamas and other Palestinian leaders actually care about the safety of the people of Gaza or the West Bank. They don't. Back in the 1970s, Yasser Arafat explicitly encouraged Palestinian women to have as many babies as possible, with the aim of overwhelming Israel by sheer numbers. The tiny Gaza Strip now has a population of over 1.8 million and is one of the most densely populated parts of the world.

    What does that tell you about the value of human life there? To Hamas, the people of Gaza are a cheap resource to be used for political and propaganda purposes. Judging by the contents of these threads, its working, at least on Irish social media.
    the rocket launch sites are not in civilian areas or buildings. israel deliberately target civilians to stir up problems so they can use them as an excuse to slaughter and steal more land. they are worse then hamas could ever be TBH.
    CruelCoin wrote: »
    You're stretching, i mean reaaaaly stretching if you going to label america and britain as terrorists and hamas as freedom fighters.
    britain and america are indeed terrorists
    CruelCoin wrote: »
    You said only.

    Its not cape canaveral. There are no dedicated launch pads.

    These guys come along, whack up a launchpad in a courtyard somewhere, launch, then leg it, despite being warned umpteen times not to use civilians as human shields.
    they put their launch sites outside any civilian area. they do not use human shields, unlike the IDF who do use palestinian children as human shields. documented evidence for which exists.so nobody warns the palestinians of anything

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #751
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    I'm going to break my own rule and post this here, if only to break you stream of propagandist ****e.

    http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/

    As a senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told the Associated Press:
    The Israelis kept saying rockets were fired from schools or hospitals when in fact they were fired 200 or 300 meters (yards) away. Still, there were some mistakes made and they were quickly dealt with."

    There were some mistakes made. Hmmmmmmm

    "As we noted at the time, UNRWA admitted (twice) that Hamas rockets had been found in UNRWA facilities that the group claimed were not being used as shelters. "


    In a number of incidents, Hamas terrorists threatened to kill UNRWA personnel if they revealed that the Islamist group was using the UN facilities for purposes of war, to ensure that they would not speak out about Hamas’s activities.

    Look, for every accusation you can give claiming civilians were not used as human shields, i can give one claiming they were.


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