Couple with six children killed in Palestine

CruelCoin

No

KingBrian2 wrote: »

How can the Palestinians recognise the Israeli right of statehood when they are themselves denied sovereignty? The Israeli gvt can and do cut funding to the Authority as they please. They have the Palestinians on a life support unit and can switch it off whenever they want.

True, the straightjacket is there. I don't agree with it.

The PLO, i've been told earlier in the thread recognised Israel.
This recognition should be made by all parties, Hamas, Fatah, etc.
Likewise, Israel should recognise the palestinian state.

CruelCoin

No

RustyNut wrote: »

Count these numbers and see how they balance out.

So, someone claims i had a bias by mostly giving pro-israeli outcomes, and i then clarify by showing it was an even split of 3-3.
Now you come along and move the goalposts. Well done. I can do that too, 13461243572456724657

speedboatchase

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

I pointed out that Hamas is a resistance group, which it is. It's resisting the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

That's all, but again, well done for making stuff up. :rolleyes:

Are you actually disputing that about Hamas?

It's a terrorist organization.

CruelCoin

No

end of the road wrote: »

and the most important one. israel goes back within its borders. the legitimate borders set in 1948.

The 1949 borders onwards are the result of a war that followed the rejection of the 1947 partition plan, proposed by the UN and backed by everyone bar the palestinians and neighbouring arab states.

At this point, Jordan controls the West Bank, and Egypt controls the Gaza strip. Fast forward to 1967 and Israel is attacked again by its neighbours who lose, and thus lose control of the Gaza strip and the West Bank.

Whats "legitimate" is a little more complicated than simply picking the optimal map for your chosen side.

Personally i reckon legitimate to be whatever you're left with after you lose two wars.

CruelCoin

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

I pointed out that Hamas is a resistance group, which it is. It's resisting the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

That's all, but again, well done for making stuff up. :rolleyes:

Are you actually disputing that about Hamas?

Are all these people making it up?

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union,[13][14] Canada,[15] Israel,[16] Egypt,[17] Japan,[18][19][20][21][22] and the United States.[23] Australia and the United Kingdom have designated the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

The IRA of old were heroes and freedom fighters for example, but now are nothing more than drug-running terrorist thugs. Hamas may have been heroes in the past, but thats long gone.

end of the road

CruelCoin wrote: »

The 1949 borders onwards are the result of a war that followed the rejection of the 1947 partition plan, proposed by the UN and backed by everyone bar the palestinians and neighbouring arab states.

At this point, Jordan controls the West Bank, and Egypt controls the Gaza strip. Fast forward to 1967 and Israel is attacked again by its neighbours who lose, and thus lose control of the Gaza strip and the West Bank.

Whats "legitimate" is a little more complicated than simply picking the optimal map for your chosen side.

Personally i reckon legitimate to be whatever you're left with after you lose two wars you start.

israel started the wars by making threats against jordan and egypt. jordan and egypt had to protect themselves from israely aggression

Vandango

speedboatchase wrote: »

It's a terrorist organization.

That started off with the blessing off Israel and all because they hoped it would split and weaken the PLO.

CruelCoin

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

The only pure gain above that would be purely Palestinian is unblockading ports.

Or are you actually so deluded that you don't think Palestinians getting bombed by Israel? :eek:

Did you mean: "Or are you actually so deluded that you don't think Palestinians are getting bombed by Israel?"

If you would read a little more carefully, you will see that i placed the cessation of bombing as being a plus for the Palestinians. I obviously meant that the bombings were Israeli. Lrn 2 rd.

CruelCoin

No

end of the road wrote: »

israel started the wars by making threats against jordan and egypt. jordan and egypt had to protect themselves from israely aggression

Wrong.

1949: Israeli war of independence (November 1947 - July 1949) - Started as 6 months of civil war between Jewish and Arab militias at the end of the British Mandate of Palestine and turned into a regular war after the declaration of independence of Israel and the intervention of several Arab armies.
Seems to me, the neighbours had violent objections to a jewish state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

The 1967 war was started by Israel when Egypt started stacking troops on its border. This is an implicit threat made by Egypt, not the other way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

speedboatchase

No

Vandango wrote: »

That started off with the blessing off Israel and all because they hoped it would split and weaken the PLO.

We're discussing the present. It's a terrorist organisation.

Areyouwell

speedboatchase wrote: »

We're discussing the present. It's a terrorist organisation.

Ah isn't that convenient for ya. Violence begets violence and there's no point in moaning about Hamas or other groups, when it was Zionist terrorism that led to their creation.

RustyNut

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Resistance is generally a non-violent type of protest whereas terrorism embraces violence and murder

Thats right, the French resistance were famous for their passive resistance.

Would you recommend the christian people of Syria living under isis, more land thieves, should resist by holding prayer marches on a friday outside the Mosque, mabe carry the odd "down with this type of thing" poster, that's sure to get them to see the error of their way. Sure anything else would be terrorism.

RustyNut

speedboatchase wrote: »

It's a terrorist organization.

speedboatchase wrote: »

We're discussing the present. It's a terrorist organisation.

What exactly is it that Hamas do that the idf and settlers dont do that makes Hamas terrorists but not the others?

end of the road

CruelCoin wrote: »

Wrong.

1949: Israeli war of independence (November 1947 - July 1949) - Started as 6 months of civil war between Jewish and Arab militias at the end of the British Mandate of Palestine and turned into a regular war after the declaration of independence of Israel and the intervention of several Arab armies.
Seems to me, the neighbours had violent objections to a jewish state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

The 1967 war was started by Israel when Egypt started stacking troops on its border. This is an implicit threat made by Egypt, not the other way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

the gathering of egyptian troops on the egyptian side of the border was in responce to a threat of aggression by israel. israel wanted more land and used it as an excuse, using emotional blackmail to america to help them. america stupidly complied

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Give us a break, what else could your post have meant. It boils down to "they're settlers, they're fair game".

Indeed it does. That's not what he claims, however.

.

BlaasForRafa wrote:

Resistance is generally a non-violent type of protest whereas
terrorism embraces violence and murder. You can resist without shooting or
stabbing people, your post just sounds like you want to justify extreme
violence.

Since when, exactly? The time I last posted? You can resist a mc donalds opening or a government policy by peaceful protest, not a violent occupation.

BlaasForRafa

RustyNut wrote: »

Thats right, the French resistance were famous for their passive resistance.

Would you recommend the christian people of Syria living under isis, more land thieves, should resist by holding prayer marches on a friday outside the Mosque, mabe carry the odd "down with this type of thing" poster, that's sure to get them to see the error of their way. Sure anything else would be terrorism.

I'd recommend not engaging in whataboutery. If you want to talk about the Maquis start a thread in the World War 2 forum, if you want to talk about Syria there are threads in Politics and other fora that you can engage in.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Indeed it does. That's not what he claims, however.

He drew a logical conclusion from what you posted. You're no problems with settlers being murdered. But you have qualms with it happening in front of their children, I suppose we should be glad you don't want extra trauma inflicted on them beyond losing their parents in a violent murderous attack.

You got caught out by posting that and now you're just trying to parse words and muddy the waters, at least now you can't claim to inhabit the moral highground in these debates.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

He drew a logical conclusion from what you posted. ..............

You really, really want to accuse me of anti-Semitism? Despite various previous posts over the years attacking anti-Semitism?

speedboatchase

No

RustyNut wrote: »

What exactly is it that Hamas do that the idf and settlers dont do that makes Hamas terrorists but not the others?

Their charter that calls for the obliteration of Israel is a fairly open, unapologetic justification for genocide. Even if you believe IDF and settlers have the same goal (despite the fact the Palestinian population has quadrupled in the past 60 years), only one side has leaders that openly state their sectarian bloodthirst and call for indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

Zebra3

CruelCoin wrote: »

Are all these people making it up?

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union,[13][14] Canada,[15] Israel,[16] Egypt,[17] Japan,[18][19][20][21][22] and the United States.[23] Australia and the United Kingdom have designated the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

The IRA of old were heroes and freedom fighters for example, but now are nothing more than drug-running terrorist thugs. Hamas may have been heroes in the past, but thats long gone.

Wow, Israel's allies, many of them racist colonial states themselves, side with Israel's propaganda. Stop the press!!!!

Not much mention of Israel joining up with France and Britain (yep, we're back to their racist, colonial mates again) to declare war on Egypt.

(You mightn't recall this because the racist western media refer to it as the Suez Crisis, not as a war which should have seen the leaders of those three countries face war crimes charges).

CruelCoin

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

Wow, Israel's allies, many of them racist colonial states themselves, side with Israel's propaganda. Stop the press!!!!

Not much mention of Israel joining up with France and Britain (yep, we're back to their racist, colonial mates again) to declare war on Egypt.

(You mightn't recall this because the racist western media refer to it as the Suez Crisis, not as a war which should have seen the leaders of those three countries face war crimes charges).

Hang on, i was responding specifically to you stating hamas are not terrorists, and i'm giving you a big body of countries that dissagree with you.

You're deflecting with this Suez business. These guys did a bad thing somewhere else, so Hamas are actually ok. Thats your logic?

With the exception of New Zealand, Switzerland and the nordic countries, pretty much every modern stable democracy is on that list. I'll take their word above the likes of russia, china, saudia arabia etc.

Dan_Solo

speedboatchase wrote: »

We're discussing the present. It's a terrorist organisation.

Remember folks:
1. Palestinians "die", Israelis are "murdered".
2. Violent Palestinians are "terrorists", violent (and invading) Israelis as "security forces" or "policing forces".
3. Anti-Zionist expansion and racism? Therefore you are an anti-Semite.

Does this sh1t still even work of Fox news because out here in normal land it's just laughed at as PR guff.

TommyKnocker

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Remember folks:
1. Palestinians "die", Israelis are "murdered".
2. Violent Palestinians are "terrorists", violent (and invading) Israelis as "security forces" or "policing forces".
3. Anti-Zionist expansion and racism? Therefore you are an anti-Semite.

Does this sh1t still even work of Fox news because out here in normal land it's just laughed at as PR guff.

4. Israeli "man" stabs 4 Palestinians, gets psychiatric treatment. Palestinian "terrorists" with the slightest suspicion that they might have a weapon, get shot multiple times, usually dead. If no weapon found, then one is provided by the state, no charge. And people say the Zionists give nothing to the Palestinians :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

wes

CruelCoin wrote: »

Are all these people making it up?

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union,[13][14] Canada,[15] Israel,[16] Egypt,[17] Japan,[18][19][20][21][22] and the United States.[23] Australia and the United Kingdom have designated the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

EU appeals court ruling taking Hamas off its terror list

Wikipedia is not always up to date btw. Also, A list of US allies putting someone a terrorism watch list is really neither here nor there. Almost everyone one of the other countries btw have supported terrorist groups, under the logic that they have decided there not terrorists.

For example the British support for Loyalist paramilitary groups, the US's support for the contra's and various groups running around Syria right now.

The fact that Israeli settlers aren't considered terrorists imho is rather telling of a rather clear bias, considering the well established and ongoing terrorism from settlers, that is actively ignored, and in a lot of cases funded by people in the West and done so pretty openly.

wes

CruelCoin wrote: »

1949: Israeli war of independence (November 1947 - July 1949) - Started as 6 months of civil war between Jewish and Arab militias at the end of the British Mandate of Palestine and turned into a regular war after the declaration of independence of Israel and the intervention of several Arab armies.
Seems to me, the neighbours had violent objections to a jewish state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

Well and all the refugees that were fleeing as well, when the new Israeli state started ethnically cleansing Arabs immediately.

CruelCoin wrote: »

The 1967 war was started by Israel when Egypt started stacking troops on its border. This is an implicit threat made by Egypt, not the other way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Egypt was involved in conflicts elsewhere in arab world at the time btw, so were hardly on the verge of attacking.

Nodin

speedboatchase wrote: »

Their charter that calls for the obliteration of Israel is a fairly open, unapologetic justification for genocide. Even if you believe IDF and settlers have the same goal (despite the fact the Palestinian population has quadrupled in the past 60 years), only one side has leaders that openly state their sectarian bloodthirst and call for indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

Even if all that is true, what have Hamas to do with the current business?

wes

speedboatchase wrote: »

Their charter that calls for the obliteration of Israel is a fairly open, unapologetic justification for genocide. Even if you believe IDF and settlers have the same goal (despite the fact the Palestinian population has quadrupled in the past 60 years), only one side has leaders that openly state their sectarian bloodthirst and call for indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

Hasn't Israel population increased as well in the last 60 years? If we are to follow that logic for Israel, then we need to follow it for Hamas. BTW, Palestinians are being pushed in smaller and smaller enclaves.

Also, only one side openly states sectarian blood lust?

This was said last year by the now Justice minister Ayelet Shaked :

On Monday she quoted this on her Facebook page: “Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

I could easily quote blood thirsty crap from leaders on both sides till the cows come home, were I bothered enough to do so.

Also, in regards to the Hamas charter:

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

BTW, the Likud charter says the following:

The Hateful Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State

TommyKnocker

speedboatchase wrote: »

Their charter that calls for the obliteration of Israel is a fairly open, unapologetic justification for genocide. Even if you believe IDF and settlers have the same goal (despite the fact the Palestinian population has quadrupled in the past 60 years), only one side has leaders that openly state their sectarian bloodthirst and call for indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

Ah, the old "Hamas Charter" chestnut. This should be resigned to the annuals of history along with the cry of "Anti Semite" leveled against critics of Israel, its government and its racist, apartheid policies.

Hamas have never sought to implement their charter and have agreed verbally, the latest occasion being when the formed the unity government with Fatah in 2014, to drop the call for the end to the state of Israel.

Some reading

Also Israel have "the bomb" and their "Samson Option", where they have stated they will use their nuclear arsenal if they fear the survival of the state is under threat. They also have the most advanced and best equipped defense force in the region, thanks to their sponsor, the US, so there is no way on earth that Hamas or any other Palestinian resistance movement could "obliterate" Israel.

Also have you had time to read the Likud charter per chance? It's not exactly all fluffy and light either.

More Reading

end of the road

speedboatchase wrote: »

Their charter that calls for the obliteration of Israel is a fairly open, unapologetic justification for genocide. Even if you believe IDF and settlers have the same goal (despite the fact the Palestinian population has quadrupled in the past 60 years), only one side has leaders that openly state their sectarian bloodthirst and call for indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

hamas removed all that from their charter years ago, so its irrelevant

end of the road

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Ah, the old "Hamas Charter" chestnut. This should be resigned to the annuals of history along with the cry of "Anti Semite" leveled against critics of Israel, its government and its racist, apartheid policies.

Hamas have never sought to implement their charter and have agreed verbally, the latest occasion being when the formed the unity government with Fatah in 2014, to drop the call for the end to the state of Israel.

Some reading

Also Israel have "the bomb" and their "Samson Option", where they have stated they will use their nuclear arsenal if they fear the survival of the state is under threat. They also have the most advanced and best equipped defense force in the region, thanks to their sponsor, the US, so there is no way on earth that Hamas or any other Palestinian resistance movement could "obliterate" Israel.

Also have you had time to read the Likud charter per chance? It's not exactly all fluffy and light either.

More Reading

TBH i think america would see israel destroyed before they could use the Samson Option. the reason being oil. america would choose oil over israel if it came down to that choice.