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Couple with six children killed in Palestine

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    #692
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Hang on, i was responding specifically to you stating hamas are not terrorists, and i'm giving you a big body of countries that dissagree with you.

    You're deflecting with this Suez business. These guys did a bad thing somewhere else, so Hamas are actually ok. Thats your logic?

    With the exception of New Zealand, Switzerland and the nordic countries, pretty much every modern stable democracy is on that list. I'll take their word above the likes of russia, china, saudia arabia etc.

    What's YOUR opinion then?

    Do you think that native people resisting a foreign occupation are terrorists?

    Michael Collins had people shot in their bed. Was he a terrorist?

    As for the whole Hamas thing? Who gives a toss about Hamas? Israel was ethnicly cleansing Palestine long before they (Israel) help set Hamas up.

    So why have any sympathy for Israel when they help found "terrorist" organisations?

    And who cares what David Cameron or Obama think about Hamas?

    How much blood have those two scumbags got on their hands?


  • Options
    #693
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    You really, really want to accuse me of anti-Semitism? Despite various previous posts over the years attacking anti-Semitism?

    You accuse him of putting words in your mouth, now you try putting words in mine. Tut-tut.

    I notice you didn't disagree with what I actually did say though.


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    #694
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Now, to try and put this thread back on track and hopefully engender some discussion a little more enlightening that people hysterically screaming "racism" in every sentence, I24 posted an article with some good observations about the current wave of lone wolf attacks, the Israeli government and the Palestinian authority.

    http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/89030-151015-analysis-the-intifada-of-the-young-and-hopeless
    Thirty-six percent of the West Bank's youth have a high school education or more. Eleven percent have at least a bachelor's degree. In Gaza, the level of education is even higher: Forty-five percent have a high school education or more, and more than 14 percent have a bachelor's degree. In the West Bank, almost 30 percent of the 19-24 age group are unemployed. In Gaza, their rate reaches 63 percent.

    This bustling explosive cannot be stopped at once. It has serious ramifications on the Palestinian society as well. The crime rate in this society, mainly in Gaza, is reaching dimensions which have not been seen before in their extent and severity. The speech Benjamin Netanyahu delivered at the Knesset on Monday - in which he called on the Arab public to look at the consequences of the Arab Spring in the neighboring countries compared to its wonderful situation here - demonstrates that the prime minister and those surrounding him don’t realize, and don’t really care about, what is really happening in the Palestinian society.

    The PA tend to get a bit of a free ride in these discussions but over the last 20 years they have trousered billions in aid money with not a lot of it dripping down to the working class palestinians. Yasser Arafat was notoriously corrupt but an investigation into the financial affairs of the current PA leadership would probably show up corruption that makes FIFA look like childs play.


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    #695
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    What's YOUR opinion then?

    I think they are a borderline terrorist body.
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Do you think that native people resisting a foreign occupation are terrorists?
    Resistance is not the issue, the manner of it is. Randomly stabbing commuters and shoppers is not "resistence". Thats terrorism.
    Now, if the palestinians attack troops then its different.
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Michael Collins had people shot in their bed. Was he a terrorist?

    Not sure, Don't know enough about the history.
    Far as i'm aware he shot collaborators/police/troops. (resistence, descriminate)
    But he didn't shoot shoppers and commuters. (terrorism, indescriminate)
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    As for the whole Hamas thing? Who gives a toss about Hamas? Israel was ethnicly cleansing Palestine long before they (Israel) help set Hamas up.

    Both of us clearly, as we're both posting about it.
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    So why have any sympathy for Israel when they help found "terrorist" organisations?

    Nonsense.
    Some info on the charter:
    "The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]
    The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] It emphasizes the importance of jihad stating in article 13, "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."[5] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[6]"

    Now, thats some hostile ****! You'd need to be a little touched to believe that Israel founded such an organisation.
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    And who cares what David Cameron or Obama honk abo Hamas?

    What, mad they don't follow O'Doherty's teachings?
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    How much blood have those two scumbags got on their hands?

    Much, goes with jobs of that level. Difficult decisions must be made for the benefit of their respective nations.


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    #696
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/89030-151015-analysis-the-intifada-of-the-young-and-hopeless

    a bunch of apologist byassed terrorist delusianel nonsense from benny the terrorist.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #697
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    end of the road wrote: »
    http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/89030-151015-analysis-the-intifada-of-the-young-and-hopeless

    a bunch of apologist byassed terrorist delusianel nonsense from benny the terrorist.

    A search for "benny" shows nothing on that page. Who/what are you referring to?


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    #698
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    end of the road wrote: »
    http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/89030-151015-analysis-the-intifada-of-the-young-and-hopeless

    a bunch of apologist byassed terrorist delusianel nonsense from benny the terrorist.
    Pointless muck.
    "Sisyphean persistence, over a long period of time, with these aggressive moves may eventually suffocate the fire"
    He obviously knows f**k all about his mythology if he reckons Sisyphean persistence can ever be anything other than futile.

    "as the chance of becoming a national hero and gaining appreciation from their immediate surroundings is much more alluring to them."
    Yeah, that's why they hate you Israel. Not because you're stealing their country or bombing their sleeping children. No, they do it for the street cred. Sure.


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    #699
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    wes wrote: »
    EU appeals court ruling taking Hamas off its terror list


    Cheers.
    wes wrote: »
    Wikipedia is not always up to date btw.

    I noticed. But this being a casual discussion, i'm not going to practice my google-fu. Low-lying fruit (wikipedia) is good enough i reckon.
    wes wrote: »
    The fact that Israeli settlers aren't considered terrorists imho is rather telling of a rather clear bias, considering the well established and ongoing terrorism from settlers, that is actively ignored, and in a lot of cases funded by people in the West and done so pretty openly.

    I'm not sure people are correctly attributing terrorism. The normal definition (and its in the name...) is an act designed to create terror.
    Now, the settlements are bad, i know this. But they're not expanded with the sole intention of instilling terror in a populace. They're expanded with the aim of getting more stuff.
    It instills anger, rage, etc, but not terror.
    Blindly firing a rocket at a civilian area on the other hand, serves no purpose other than to instill terror, and is correctly attributed as such.


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    #700
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    [/URL]

    Cheers.



    I noticed. But this being a casual discussion, i'm not going to practice my google-fu. Low-lying fruit (wikipedia) is good enough i reckon.



    I'm not sure people are correctly attributing terrorism. The normal definition (and its in the name...) is an act designed to create terror.
    Now, the settlements are bad, i know this. But they're not expanded with the sole intention of instilling terror in a populace. They're expanded with the aim of getting more stuff.
    It instills anger, rage, etc, but not terror.
    Blindly firing a rocket at a civilian area on the other hand, serves no purpose other than to instill terror, and is correctly attributed as such.
    no but the settlers actions toards palestinians are to instill terror, so are terrorism

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #701
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'm not sure people are correctly attributing terrorism. The normal definition (and its in the name...) is an act designed to create terror.
    Now, the settlements are bad, i know this. But they're not expanded with the sole intention of instilling terror in a populace. They're expanded with the aim of getting more stuff.
    It instills anger, rage, etc, but not terror.
    Blindly firing a rocket at a civilian area on the other hand, serves no purpose other than to instill terror, and is correctly attributed as such.
    So you are now claiming "good" Palestinians have nothing to fear, i.e. are not terrorized by IDF bombs? Were those sleeping children in that UN "protected" school specific targets then, since you claim "Israel doesn't do terrorism"?


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    #702
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I noticed. But this being a casual discussion, i'm not going to practice my google-fu. Low-lying fruit (wikipedia) is good enough i reckon.

    Was just an FYI, I have made the same mistake.
    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'm not sure people are correctly attributing terrorism. The normal definition (and its in the name...) is an act designed to create terror.
    Now, the settlements are bad, i know this. But they're not expanded with the sole intention of instilling terror in a populace. They're expanded with the aim of getting more stuff.
    It instills anger, rage, etc, but not terror.

    There is actually no agreed upon definition of terrorism.

    It a meaningless term. I could by your own definition that settler attacks are trying to terrorize Palestinians, into leaving there land, so that settlers can take it and so on.
    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Blindly firing a rocket at a civilian area on the other hand, serves no purpose other than to instill terror, and is correctly attributed as such.

    Really? It could be argued like what your saying that the attacking install anger, rage etc, and not terror, as the attacks rarely kill or hurt anyone.

    Again the term is largely meaningless, and can easily be twisted depending on your POV.

    The fact still remains that until there is some consistency to the use of the term , its largely worthless.

    I could argue that Hamas militants are effectively the military of Palestinians in Gaza, and similar to the IDF, not terrorists on that basis, regardless of whether they target civilians or not.


  • Options
    #703
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    end of the road wrote: »
    no but the settlers actions toards palestinians are to instill terror, so are terrorism

    No, thats just simple thuggery, religious bigotry and stupidity on the part of the settlers.

    By the same token, Travellers are violent but are not terrorists. Both groups are violent for various reasons, but terror is not the aim of it.


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    #704
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    No, thats just simple thuggery, religious bigotry and stupidity.

    By the same token, Travellers are equally violent but are not terrorists. Both groups are violent for various reasons, but terror is not the aim of it.

    Terror is never an aim in and of itself for anyone. They are usually engaging in attacks to achieve some other objective. Your own unique definition, would lead us to the conclusion that no one is a terrorist.


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    #705
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    No, thats just simple thuggery, religious bigotry and stupidity on the part of the settlers.

    By the same token, Travellers are violent but are not terrorists. Both groups are violent for various reasons, but terror is not the aim of it.
    the settlers actions are to instill terror into the palestinians to force them from their land and are therefore acts of terrorism. travelers don't even come into the discussion

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #706
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    You accuse him of putting words in your mouth, now you try putting words in mine. Tut-tut. .

    You say this individual has 'caught me out'. What other reading of it would I have, other than that you agree with him.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I notice you didn't disagree with what I actually did say though.

    Some of it is accurate so why would I?


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    #707
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »


    The PA tend to get a bit of a free ride in these discussions but over the last 20 years they have trousered billions in aid money with not a lot of it dripping down to the working class palestinians. Yasser Arafat was notoriously corrupt but an investigation into the financial affairs of the current PA leadership would probably show up corruption that makes FIFA look like childs play.

    Abbas is hanging on to power to make sure he can milk whatever he can for his family for the system, while doing little focused work to address the problems the people he's supposed to lead have to live with. This suits certain parties down to the ground, but has led to the anger and desperation that has sporadically broken out in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.
    cruel coin wrote:
    No, thats just simple thuggery, religious bigotry and stupidity on the part of
    the settlers

    It's as much part of the effort to subdue and intimidate Palestinians as the IDF presence and its activities - its to instill fear hence "terrorism". Trying to split hairs over who is and is not a terrorist only goes to show that is essentially a term with no real meaning.


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    #708
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    Trying to split hairs over who is and is not a terrorist only goes to show that is essentially a term with no real meaning.

    I'm sure it has a meaning, but the problem is there is nobody with a neutral view or the moral authority to make a judgement one way or another.


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    #709
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    wes wrote: »
    Terror is never an aim in and of itself for anyone. They are usually engaging in attacks to achieve some other objective. Your own unique definition, would lead us to the conclusion that no one is a terrorist.

    And what "other objective" are the rockets aiming for?


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    #710
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    And what "other objective" are the rockets aiming for?

    The aim can be anything from retaliation, to making a show that they are "resisting" Israel and so on. Terror is never the sole aim of any terrorist in and of itself, and as such definition means that no one is a terrorist.

    Again, the settlers aim is to settle more land, and as part of that objective they attack Palestinians, or are retaliating themselves to Palestinian militant attack and sometimes they even attack Palestinians, when the IDF actually enforces the law on settlers the odd time (referred to as "price tag" attacks).

    So to go back the rockets, I could argue based on your definition that due to them being ineffective they are not terrorism. As how could someone be terrified or a largely ineffectual weapon. I am not saying this is the case, just pointing out that your definition doesn't make sense.


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    #711
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'm not sure people are correctly attributing terrorism. The normal definition (and its in the name...) is an act designed to create terror.
    Now, the settlements are bad, i know this. But they're not expanded with the sole intention of instilling terror in a populace. They're expanded with the aim of getting more stuff.
    It instills anger, rage, etc, but not terror.
    Blindly firing a rocket at a civilian area on the other hand, serves no purpose other than to instill terror, and is correctly attributed as such.

    So when the idf impose collective punishment on innocent non combatant Palestinians do you regard that as terrorism or just a war crime?


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    #712
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    wes wrote: »
    So to go back the rockets, I could argue based on your definition that due to them being ineffective they are not terrorism. As how could someone be terrified or a largely ineffectual weapon. I am not saying this is the case, just pointing out that your definition doesn't make sense.

    People peg it to shelters for a reason.

    I disagree with you, but i can see your point.


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    #713
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    RustyNut wrote: »
    So when the idf impose collective punishment on innocent non combatant Palestinians do you regard that as terrorism or just a war crime?

    What collective punishments?
    They're not at war at the moment, so its not a war crime.
    Neither is it terrosism in my view.
    (Thats not to say its awesome either, it clearly isn't).


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    #714
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    What collective punishments?
    .

    Demolishing family homes of innocent palestinian familys for the actions of one individual.


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    #715
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets

    So you accept that the idf are legitimate military targets and Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
    CruelCoin wrote: »
    And what "other objective" are the rockets aiming for?

    On the basis that the vast majority of israeli casualties in the last big attack by the idf on Gaza were members of the illegal occupying force, more than 10 combatants for each civilian, then I think considering the weapons that were used it is reasonable to assume that all efforts were being made to hit legitimate military targets and not civilians.
    CruelCoin wrote: »

    Also, its not murder. If a gunner on an artillery piece fire at an enemy, then shell then strays (flaw in the casing or something) and hits a house and kills civilians, then is that murder? Its not. Its collateral damage, which happens in all wars. "Murder" is when you deliberately and illegally kill another person. The deaths were not deliberate, hence not murder.


    The idf however with all their advanced "precision weaponry" slaughter more than twice as many innocent civilians as combatants, shows who the intended targets were.


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    #716
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    What collective punishments?
    They're not at war at the moment, so its not a war crime.
    Neither is it terrosism in my view.
    (Thats not to say its awesome either, it clearly isn't).
    the IDF bomb innocent civilians deliberately. of course its terrorism.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #717
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    What collective punishments?
    ................

    House demolitions and expulsion from Arab East Jerusalem of the families of anyone involved in an attack.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34535573

    Any oul excuse.


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    #718
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    The aim can be anything from retaliation, to making a show that they are "resisting" Israel and so on. Terror is never the sole aim of any terrorist in and of itself, and as such definition means that no one is a terrorist.

    No-one is a terrorist, how convenient. Then that means what they do can be justified which is convenient also. Except when it's "state terrorism" of course which the pro-palestinians like to go on about. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

    mmmm cake.


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    #719
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    RustyNut wrote: »
    So when the idf impose collective punishment on innocent non combatant Palestinians do you regard that as terrorism or just a war crime?

    No sympathy for innocent non-combatant Israelis being attacked but sympathy for palestinians who enable the attackers? Nice.

    And Abbas caught out lying about the Israeli police killing a 13 year old palestinian (who stabbed a 13 year old Israeli)
    Speaking for the first time since the upsurge in violence began, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Israeli actions were "threatening to spark a religious conflict that would burn everything".

    He also accused Israel of carrying out "executions of our children in cold blood", highlighting the case of a 13-year-old Palestinian boy, Ahmed Manasra, who was hit by a car after he and a 15-year-old stabbed two Israelis, one of them a 13-year-old boy, on Monday.

    On Thursday, Israel's government released video and photos showing the boy alive in an Israeli hospital. It described the Palestinian leader's comments as "lies and incitement".


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    #720
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    You say this individual has 'caught me out'. What other reading of it would I have, other than that you agree with him.

    I did not say "He" caught you out. I said "You got caught out by posting that and now you're just trying to parse words and muddy the waters, at least now you can't claim to inhabit the moral highground in these debates." I didn't say any person caught you out because in effect you caught yourself out by posting that.

    You can never claim the moral high ground again because, reading from what you say, settlers lives don't matter, if they're murdered so what, doesn't matter.


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    #721
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I did not say "He" caught you out. I said "You got caught out by posting that and now you're just trying to parse words and muddy the waters, at least now you can't claim to inhabit the moral highground in these debates." I didn't say any person caught you out because in effect you caught yourself out by posting that. .

    Isn't great that you can construct a formula in your head that allows you to reach conclusions that have no basis in fact.

    I find it amusing that you think that I've been "caught out" in anyway, because I said exactly what I meant to say in the exact way I meant to say it.

    You, however, have yet to outline how Palestinians might resist the occupation without using violence in the circumstances they are facing. You might share your ideas with us. I've been entirely honest in giving my opinion, so you could at least return the favour.

    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    You can never claim the moral high ground again because, reading from what you say, settlers lives don't matter, if they're murdered so what, doesn't matter.


    O it does matter, as it imposes a price on colonisation which is currently absent.


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