Budget 2016

Geuze · 12-10-2015 9:25pm

TheDoc wrote: »

If USC being cut by 2% is the so called giveaway....****ing hell. They can keep it to be honest as it makes little or not odds to my payslip. A 2% cut on USC works out about €3.50 a month there or there abouts? Hardly worth a headline.

But ****ing hell.....USC cut by 2% is hardly something to jump up and down about. And no doubt will probably have ANOTHER price hike on Tobacco, the wonderful low hanging fruit....

Note that it's a possible cut in the rate by 2%, not a 2% cut in the amount that you pay.

newacc2015 · 12-10-2015 9:26pm

Dob74 wrote: »

Anyone else think that the government assume the population are complete idiots? After preaching austerity for the last five years now as soon as a bit growth returns to the economy they are opening the flood gates on spending and tax cuts. No doubt it will lead to inflation and prices going thru the roof.

Im a firm believer of fiscal controls. But with the threat of deflation being so strong. If we get inflation, I think most economists will be celebrating.The risk of entering into a Japan never ending recession due to to deflation is too great.

A bit of inflation is good in an economy as it encourages more spending. Deflation causes the opposite and is extremely difficult to overcome. If we get inflation of 2-3%(what the conservate ECB thinks is healthy), I will call the budget a success

Geuze · 12-10-2015 9:35pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

A bit of inflation is good in an economy as it encourages more spending. Deflation causes the opposite and is extremely difficult to overcome. If we get inflation of 2-3%(what the conservate ECB thinks is healthy), I will call the budget a success

Surely inflation is an outcome?

A stronger economy, with more spending, leads to inflation?

Instead of "more inflation leads to more spending".

Hollister11 · 12-10-2015 10:37pm

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.
Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.
Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.
New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.
Dissolve irish water.
Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
Reduce vat to 20%
Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.
Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.
Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.
Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.
Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

Eric Cartman · 12-10-2015 10:40pm

Hollister11 wrote: »

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.

Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.

Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.

Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.

New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.

Dissolve irish water.

Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.

Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.

Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.

Reduce vat to 20%

Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.

Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.

Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.

Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.

Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

you have some very good ideas there, once I cross out the crazy ones.

ezra_pound · 12-10-2015 10:47pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you have some very good ideas there, once I cross out the crazy ones.

What are the very good ideas? They're all ridiculous- apart from the cigarettes but that's a no brainer.

Idbatterim · 12-10-2015 11:11pm

Because this has been proven to be what the voter wants.

Paddy aches to be bribed with his own money.

i think its important to strike a balance between getting re-elected and not "giving away" more than they need to... I am against any welfare increases, if they insist on them, it should be the bare minimum. Then forget any for the next few years when there isnt an imminent election, the money can be far better spent in other areas IMO...

Eric Cartman · 12-10-2015 11:11pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

What are the very good ideas? They're all ridiculous- apart from the cigarettes but that's a no brainer.

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
Reduce vat to 20%

these were pretty good ones. €15 quid smokes is just going to boost the black market even more.

Greyian · 12-10-2015 11:37pm

AlexisM wrote: »

Just did a quote on the Irish Life website. 300K will buy a pension annuity of 12,910 for a 66 year old. This is a non-increasing amount that doesn't transfer to the spouse when the pensioner dies - whereas the state contributory pension is effectively index-linked and can transfer to a spouse. So 300K is probably an underestimate of the value of an index-linked pension of 12K pa.

Except that the value of the contributory pension is only really €15...because you'd get ~€220/week from the non-contributory pension.

newacc2015 · 12-10-2015 11:41pm

Geuze wrote: »

Surely inflation is an outcome?

A stronger economy, with more spending, leads to inflation?

Instead of "more inflation leads to more spending".

Inflation reduces the incentive to save. If your money is worth less in one year. You are more likely to spend it today

BunkMoreland · 13-10-2015 12:08am

A bonus for sitting on their holes. Well fair play to them.

If I get a bonus in work it's usually 10%, and usually that's 10% of zero.

BOHtox · 13-10-2015 1:36am

Hollister11 wrote: »

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.

Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.

Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.

Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.

New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.

Dissolve irish water.

Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.

Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.

Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.

Reduce vat to 20%

Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.

Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.

Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.

Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.

Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

That's the craziest list of far left, far right and slapstick I have ever seen

ezra_pound · 13-10-2015 7:23am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

these were pretty good ones. €15 quid smokes is just going to boost the black market even more.

OK just to take first point- halving social welfare.

How on earth do you deal with the riots as 800k oaps take to the streets in wed. morning saying no way are we voting for you and probably justifiably petrified of how they're going to make ends meet.

ezra_pound · 13-10-2015 7:27am

BOHtox wrote: »

That's the craziest list of far left, far right and slapstick I have ever seen

The classic hidden gem in the middle though - "dissolve Irish water "
It's actually a beautifully silly thing to write - but in a list of budget 4 year old bloopers like this the night before budget day - priceless

Perhaps he meant "dissolve in Irish water. - awwwwwwhhh. Bally. - gow - an "!?

ezra_pound · 13-10-2015 7:31am

And what on earth would the Leitrim equivalent of the dart be - a taxi driven by a unionised driver?

A rickshaw?

Reduce social welfare in half, take rickshaw in Leitrim, take two panadol and dissolve in Irish water.

ezra_pound · 13-10-2015 7:39am

Limiting children's allowance to only Irish born parents - I mean come on.

Absurd.

Geuze · 13-10-2015 8:05am

Hollister11 wrote: »

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.

Halving the State Pension and Child Benefit would be deeply unpopular.

Cutting the CSP from 230.30 pw back to 115 pw would push many pensioners into poverty.

It is not a reasonable suggestion.

touts · 13-10-2015 8:18am

ezra_pound wrote: »

Limiting children's allowance to only Irish born parents - I mean come on.

Absurd.

Agree. You can't limit it to Irish Born Parents. If the child lives here they should have an entitlement to the same payment regardless of who their parents are.

But what should be done is to limit the payment to children living here and the payment should be in vouchers (realistically a sort of debit one4all type card rather than paper vouchers). Those vouchers would be acceptable in Irish stores only and would be time limited. That would prevent the money being sent overseas and would also prevent better off parents saving the money to pay for University etc in the future. You could also put restrictions on what the voucher scheme could be spent on thus preventing it being spent in the bookies or off-licence. It would have to be spent on the child and would have to be spend within a few weeks of payment thus boosting both the welfare of the child and the economy.

There is a very valid argument that child benefit should be means tested. While I would agree with that politically that will probably never happen. So if we are stuck with it we might as well use it as a tool to introduce a voucher like system for a form of welfare that everyone gets regardless of status. Therefore there is quickly no stigma in using the welfare voucher card and it becomes commonly accepted. That eliminates the key argument against paying ALL welfare in voucher form. "I'd be too ashamed to pay for it with food vouchers". Well if everyone is using these cards no one knows or cares about your personal circumstances. Remember no pensioner objects to the shame of using the free travel pass because everyone over 65 gets it and therefore there is no stigma. Start with child welfare, then all state pensions, then all welfare.

Once all welfare is paid in vouchers there are huge benefits to the taxpayer. The state can negotiate with the stores and companies in the scheme for savings without reducing the payment to the recipient. The money has to be spent in this country and can't be sent overseas. It has to be spend shortly (say within a month) after the payment thus boosting the economy. With the correct security tools (e.g. photo id etc) it would devastate the black market.

Villa05 · 13-10-2015 8:41am

Geuze wrote:

Cutting the CSP from 230.30 pw back to 115 pw would push many pensioners into poverty.

It would be cut by a lot more. There are far more pensioners that there are unemployed

ezra_pound · 13-10-2015 8:47am

Villa05 wrote: »

It would be cut by a lot more. There are far more pensioners that there are unemployed

Well if we are cutting sw in half then it's fair enough for demonstrative purposes to literally apply a 50% reduction to all benefits.

seamus · 13-10-2015 9:14am

Hollister11 wrote: »

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.

Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.

Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.

Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.

New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.

Dissolve irish water.

Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.

Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.

Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.

Reduce vat to 20%

Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.

Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.

Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.

Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.

Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

Let's be honest here, this is a wishlist rather than a serious suggestion of what to do. You're basically hoping that you can claw back €10bn on social welfare to spend on everything else without any ill-effects.

Although someone has accused you of being lefty, a lot of this is very right-leaning, since the big winners overall would be the top 1% and the big losers would be the bottom 10%.

Though I can get behind the animal charity thing. In reality we should be removing all state funding for greyhound and horse racing and ring fencing that for animal welfare projects, as well as imposing a 5% levy on winnings from these events, deductible at source by the bookies.

Baggy Trousers · 13-10-2015 9:24am

A giveaway propaganda budget using borrowed money. Brave stuff from our visionary government. Did they learn nothing?

13-10-2015 9:28am

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

seamus · 13-10-2015 9:30am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

The funny thing is, I think if the Government said they were leaving taxes as is, but pumping €1bn into health and €250m each into transport and education, the vast majority of voters (and FG's key voters in particular) would be just as happy with that as with tax cuts.

Dob74 · 13-10-2015 9:36am

Hollister11 wrote:

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000. Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit. Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy. Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health. New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county. Dissolve irish water. Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively. Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything. Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%. Reduce vat to 20% Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million. Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely. Increase cigarettes to â‚¬15 per pack. Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs. Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

Not bad.
But most of the social welfare budget goes on Oap and children's allowance.
In directly we already own most of those vacant properties. NAMA is holding them to drive prices up. To the shame of central government they appear to be fine with this.

13-10-2015 9:37am

seamus wrote: »

The funny thing is, I think if the Government said they were leaving taxes as is, but pumping €1bn into health and €250m each into transport and education, the vast majority of voters (and FG's key voters in particular) would be just as happy with that as with tax cuts.

Must be some reason they think, or seem to at least, otherwise.

Godge · 13-10-2015 10:17am

touts wrote: »

Agree. You can't limit it to Irish Born Parents. If the child lives here they should have an entitlement to the same payment regardless of who their parents are.

But what should be done is to limit the payment to children living here and the payment should be in vouchers (realistically a sort of debit one4all type card rather than paper vouchers). Those vouchers would be acceptable in Irish stores only and would be time limited. That would prevent the money being sent overseas and would also prevent better off parents saving the money to pay for University etc in the future. You could also put restrictions on what the voucher scheme could be spent on thus preventing it being spent in the bookies or off-licence. It would have to be spent on the child and would have to be spend within a few weeks of payment thus boosting both the welfare of the child and the economy.

There is a very valid argument that child benefit should be means tested. While I would agree with that politically that will probably never happen. So if we are stuck with it we might as well use it as a tool to introduce a voucher like system for a form of welfare that everyone gets regardless of status. Therefore there is quickly no stigma in using the welfare voucher card and it becomes commonly accepted. That eliminates the key argument against paying ALL welfare in voucher form. "I'd be too ashamed to pay for it with food vouchers". Well if everyone is using these cards no one knows or cares about your personal circumstances. Remember no pensioner objects to the shame of using the free travel pass because everyone over 65 gets it and therefore there is no stigma. Start with child welfare, then all state pensions, then all welfare.

Once all welfare is paid in vouchers there are huge benefits to the taxpayer. The state can negotiate with the stores and companies in the scheme for savings without reducing the payment to the recipient. The money has to be spent in this country and can't be sent overseas. It has to be spend shortly (say within a month) after the payment thus boosting the economy. With the correct security tools (e.g. photo id etc) it would devastate the black market.

Cut child benefit and spend the money on the following measures:

- School Books, further savings through central tender
- School Uniforms, ditto
- Expansion of School meals, especially for disadvantaged areas
- Subsidised after-school childcare for working parents (not for those on social welfare)
- Subsidised childcare for pre-school children of working parents where full parental leave has been used
- Increased funding for child sporting facilities.

There is nearly €2 bn a year spent on child benefit. All of the above would cost less than that and be much better for children.

Captain Chaos · 13-10-2015 10:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

This is the last chance for this type of budget ever. New EU rules come in from next year meaning no more buying elections like this will be possible anymore.

Dickerty · 13-10-2015 10:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

But you cannot continue to tell people that we are recovering well, and then say there is no benefit to them. Making statements about the recovery is important to attract jobs and investment, and giving something back to everyone is a good way to promote spending, and may give some relief for increasing rents or mortgage arrears...

Dickerty · 13-10-2015 10:26am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

This is the last chance for this type of budget ever. New EU rules come in from next year meaning no more buying elections like this will be possible anymore.

Yeh, that will definitely work...

Budget 2016

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