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RWC'15 Pool D: Ireland vs Italy, RWC. KO Sunday 4:45PM TV3/ITV1

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    #962
    Bogsnorkler
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭Bogsnorkler


    WarZ wrote: »
    Lets be realistic here, that lineout is a shambles. He just happened to be in the front. If Toner was there I reckon we would have stolen a lot more lineouts.

    Imagine Henderson, who actually is a second row was where POM was and then we had Toner and O'Connell as well! You'd have three second rows in a lineout!

    Its fine to have an agenda, but you look foolish if you disregard everything he did well and highlight just his mistakes.

    I reckon switching him out won't make too much of a difference. We had a collective issue against Italy.

    IMO Henry has looked at lot more impressive than POM. Also Joe seriously likes him as a player. Could well see him get in ahead of any of the 3 (POM being the most likely).


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    #963
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I am sure he could be a decent 13 but the simple fact is that the teams that utilise that sort of game like Australia (anyone else at all that is actually good) have far superior options to Earls at 13. We don't have the players to play a quick offloading game. In fact if we were to do so Payne would be our best option as the man can offload very well. Earls' talents just lend themselves to the wing entirely. I have no idea why people want to force him where there is no space.

    Earls did not show much yesterday, the try seemed like a training ground move and he did his job well but it hardly like he had the most difficult job there. I reckon anyone who could have been considered for outside center knew that move inside out.


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    #964
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    molloyjh wrote: »
    As has been said before the ability to break the line in midfield is not really that relevant in the modern game. Particularly at the higher levels of the game where the defences are simply too good to offer up the space required.

    Making even half breaks and offloading are very relevent. Earls can do this, Payne hasn't shown that he can. It's irrelevant for this World Cup but maybe not down the line.


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    #965
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    molloyjh wrote: »
    How many times have we seen a 13 break the line against tier 1 opposition so far?

    http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/video/100403


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    #966
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    molloyjh wrote: »
    How many times have we seen a 13 break the line against tier 1 opposition so far?

    I'm not even talking about clean line breaks. Having the ability to get behind 2 defenders and offloading is what the top teams do!


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    #967
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    noway12345 wrote: »
    We can't change our tactics now, it has to be Payne that starts. I'm saying in the future under different tactics Earls could be a brilliant centre playing alongside all our other attacking options. I prefer him on the wing though.

    Look, just gonna leave it there. You think that Earls *could* be an amazing, attacking 13 and better than Payne will ever be. I don't know what you think a 13's primary role is and I don't know how you are basing this on anything other than blind hope and random intuition. Regardless we'll agree to disagree. If Earls becomes the second coming of BOD sure won't it be great for Ireland.


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    #968
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    noway12345 wrote: »
    Under the current tactics and with far more game time obviously Payne is ahead of Earls. That's not what we've been discussing. We've been discussing whether Earls can make a great centre and whether he'd be better than Payne.

    Why are we discussing this during a World Cup campaign though? Awful time to try and change your centre combination. Let's leave that conversation until after this tournament is done and dusted.


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    #969
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Christy42 wrote: »
    I am sure he could be a decent 13 but the simple fact is that the teams that utilise that sort of game like Australia (anyone else at all that is actually good) have far superior options to Earls at 13. We don't have the players to play a quick offloading game. In fact if we were to do so Payne would be our best option as the man can offload very well. Earls' talents just lend themselves to the wing entirely. I have no idea why people want to force him where there is no space.

    Earls did not show much yesterday, the try seemed like a training ground move and he did his job well but it hardly like he had the most difficult job there. I reckon anyone who could have been considered for outside center knew that move inside out.

    I want him to remain on the wing, my argument is given the right tactics and give him a year and he would be far more effective than Payne. He didn't get a chance to attack much yesterday cause we kicked it all day.


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    #970
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Look, just gonna leave it there. You think that Earls *could* be an amazing, attacking 13 and better than Payne will ever be. I don't know what you think a 13's primary role is and I don't know how you are basing this on anything other than blind hope and random intuition. Regardless we'll agree to disagree. If Earls becomes the second coming of BOD sure won't it be great for Ireland.

    It would be great. It's all about opinions.


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    #971
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Why are we discussing this during a World Cup campaign though? Awful time to try and change your centre combination. Let's leave that conversation until after this tournament is done and dusted.

    I think Henshaw should be 13 but it's too late!


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    #972
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    noway12345 wrote: »
    It would be great. It's all about opinions.

    That's a bit of a cop-out. Payne as a better 13 than Earls for our gameplan (as you yourself have admitted) is factual, not opinion. Setting that against pure speculation gets us nowhere.


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    #973
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    noway12345 wrote: »
    I want him to remain on the wing, my argument is given the right tactics and give him a year and he would be far more effective than Payne. He didn't get a chance to attack much yesterday cause we kicked it all day.
    We kicked exactly 43 times out of the three hundred plus times we had the ball.

    Not all day by any stretch.


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    #974
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    noway12345 wrote: »
    Making even half breaks and offloading are very relevent. Earls can do this, Payne hasn't shown that he can. It's irrelevant for this World Cup but maybe not down the line.

    But Payne has shown a far better ability to do this than Earls has so far. Earls' offloading yesterday was quite poor and while Payne hasn't done a huge amount of it his success rate has been a lot higher.

    EDIT: Also you are getting way too hung up on offloads. Clever distribution while drawing defenders accomplishes pretty much the same thing with far less risk. And Payne is excellent at that.
    total former wrote: »
    http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/video/100403

    In fairness that was all about Burgess, a guy who simply isn't international class, getting all lost at sea. An example, but maybe not a particularly good one. As I said before I wanted to see Payne break the line a bit more against weaker opposition to show he could do it. For me that would have been an example of just that. It's a totally different story if we're talking about international class centre partnerships.

    Sorry English Lurker...


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    #975
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    noway12345 wrote: »
    No it's not. I think Earls should be on the wing but I think he'd be a better centre than Payne with different tactics. Even currently he offers more in attack than Payne but it's too late to be putting him there. Henshaw is our best 13 at present.

    People keep saying this with very little foundation. I keep watching Connacht to see it but it just doesn't happen on a regular basis. Some good things and mostly mostly competent. No doubt he will get better as he has all the attributes physically.

    Earls isn't a better centre than Payne who isn't a better centre than Cave.


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    #976
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    noway12345 wrote: »
    I want him to remain on the wing, my argument is given the right tactics and give him a year and he would be far more effective than Payne. He didn't get a chance to attack much yesterday cause we kicked it all day.

    Well that would be a year (without injury) down the road. We would also need to find players to supplement the game plan. However if we work really hard then in a years time we might be a terrible version of Australia. We can't copy other sides, we do our own thing and play according to our strengths which include 2 of the best half backs for kicking out of hand. We kicked it all day yesterday because that is where the Italians left the space. No one was consistently making good carries when they were given the ball so what was the point in letting players run at the defense till we got turned over.


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    #977
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Craig Gilroy should be our new 13. He plays on the wing so that makes him an ideal candidate :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwBwIrm-U3c


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    #978
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Indeed, one could very easily argue that Payne could be a better centre with different tactics suited to him.

    Or maybe the ones Ireland are actually using...if there are any.


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    #979
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    MJohnston wrote: »
    That's a bit of a cop-out. Payne as a better 13 than Earls for our gameplan (as you yourself have admitted) is factual, not opinion. Setting that against pure speculation gets us nowhere.

    No, Payne is better at 13 for this tournament because he's played this game plan over and over. I actually don't think his role is too hard to replicate. Average centres could do it. That's not to say that Payne is average.


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    #980
    WarZ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    We all know the future 13 will be Gary Ringrose.


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    #981
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    rrpc wrote: »
    We kicked exactly 43 times out of the three hundred plus times we had the ball.

    Not all day by any stretch.

    You know what I mean, we passed it in close, then Murray or Sexton bombed it.


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    #982
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    WarZ wrote: »
    We all know the future 13 will be Gary Ringrose.

    With McCloskey at 12. Sorted.


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    #983
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    noway12345 wrote: »
    Payne is better at 13 for this tournament because he's played this game plan over and over.

    Okay, I'm glad we have that settled, maybe the same old debate can stop being brought up in every RWC thread then!


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    #984
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    With McCloskey at 12. Sorted.

    How about Olding?

    Olding/Henshaw is the future.


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    #985
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    molloyjh wrote: »
    But Payne has shown a far better ability to do this than Earls has so far. Earls' offloading yesterday was quite poor and while Payne hasn't done a huge amount of it his success rate has been a lot higher.

    EDIT: Also you are getting way too hung up on offloads. Clever distribution while drawing defenders accomplishes pretty much the same thing with far less risk. And Payne is excellent at that.

    It didn't work out yesterday but Earls showed he can get in behind to offload, Payne doesn't show this regurly. I'm saying Payne doesn't draw much defenders, he's very predictable.


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    #986
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    jacothelad wrote: »
    People keep saying this with very little foundation. I keep watching Connacht to see it but it just doesn't happen on a regular basis. Some good things and mostly mostly competent. No doubt he will get better as he has all the attributes physically.

    Earls isn't a better centre than Payne who isn't a better centre than Cave.

    I've seen Henshaw do it against top class opposition. That's at his age and in an inferior Connacht team.

    Earls hasn't played enough to be considered for the centre in my opinion. Payne hasn't done enough to be an automatic selection, however it's too late to change him now for this World Cup if he's fit. As I've said, I think Fitzgerald/Henshaw should have been tried v Italy.


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    #987
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭phog


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I'm not saying he is a bad player, I'm saying I'd prefer Payne over him all the time.

    No, what you actually said was -
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    This still adds up to him not being a suitable centre for Ireland.

    Joe obviously thinks otherwise.


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    #988
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    WarZ wrote: »
    Ditto Heaslip. has to do a lot more grunt work (and a lot more tackles considering our current starting blindside refuses to tackle and barely averages above 3 tackles per game....I think I remember an England game where he made literally 0 tackles!)

    Sorry to bang the same drum but I do think Ireland's biggest issue right now is Peter O'Mahony. He has unbalanced our backrow and restrains Heaslip and more important SOB. He doesn't tackle, he doesn't carry over the gainline, he gives away infringements so can someone tell me why he is still there? He was good two seasons ago, now.....distinctively poor to average. Henderson is even more of a machine at 6 lets play him there and free up Toner to improve our stuttering rolling maul and gain lineout dominance!!!

    Quicksand alert....Quicksand alert......:eek: He's there because he can make naughty faces and pull jerseys better than anyone since the days of Leatherarse. It's a bit like the mantra that wingers don't need to score tries, centres don't need to make breaks and 6's = well this one, doesn't need to tackle. He is destined for higher things. He's captaincy material. haven't you heard. He is o.k. but he's not the world beater many would have us believe.....like Henshaw. The alternative to him is SOB at 6 and Henry at 7 ...or Henderson at 6 and SOB at 7. However Henderson is already being labelled to suit other players advancement. The question is this. Is the team better with Henderson at 6 disrupting rucks and carrying forcefully and really blasting players in the tackle or POM at 6 doing the odd nice thing.


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    #989
    noway12345
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭noway12345


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Well that would be a year (without injury) down the road. We would also need to find players to supplement the game plan. However if we work really hard then in a years time we might be a terrible version of Australia. We can't copy other sides, we do our own thing and play according to our strengths which include 2 of the best half backs for kicking out of hand. We kicked it all day yesterday because that is where the Italians left the space. No one was consistently making good carries when they were given the ball so what was the point in letting players run at the defense till we got turned over.

    As I said, I want Earls on the wing. That's because we have Henshaw for outside centre. The problem with having a limited game plan like using your 9 and 10 to kick repeatedly is that if they have an off day then you're screwed.


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    #990
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Earls undoubtedly has more appearances at 13 in Pro Rugby than Henshaw, Payne and Fitzgerald combined...

    To say he hasn't played enough there for consideration is bizarre...


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    #991
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    phog wrote: »
    No, what you actually said was -


    Joe obviously thinks otherwise.

    Yes, adds up to him not being a suitable centre for Ireland in the current set up, which is what the post I was replying to was saying.


This discussion has been closed.
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