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Is the Western World anti-man?

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Comments

  • #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Also I have never heard of anyone in real life( as opposed to the internet) talk about rape culture.


  • #93
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Why, in these arguments, is the gender of the lawmaker (which really shouldn't affect how well they do their job or what laws they pass) considered more important than the actual laws? Most Western governments are run by men, and yet they are passing laws which hurt men and benefit women. It was a majority male government which refused a couple of years ago to remove the outrageous sexism involved in statutory rape, it's male governments and male judges who f*ck fathers over in divorce court, it's male governments who insist that only penetration counts as rape, and not simply sexual intercourse without consent (gender neutral), it's male dominated governments who use the sexist phrase "violence against women".

    So yes, the genders of the lawmakers are primarily male, and yet those laws are still primarily benefitting women at the moment at the expense of mens' rights.

    How should this situation be resolved in your opinion?


  • #94
    desertcircus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »
    I see far more instances of women gaining an advantage because of their gender than men, male privilege is non existent in the western world.

    Even 9/11 truthers aren't this ridiculous.


  • #95
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Ha written a longer reply but lost it.
    Anyway to those arguing that this is false can you give me a counter point?
    Is there any statistical measure (so actually factual)where females under 30-35 are in a worse position males, excluding sexual harassment/assault?
    Its pointless talking about men in their 40's-50's as they were not a product of the current environment.

    Addition depression would be one but the vastly higher male suicide rates indicate s9mething else going on.


    Well, as long as you're narrowing it down to criteria that suits your argument...

    Seriously, that's like expecting someone to be able to argue their case, but with duck tape on their mouth and their hands behind their back so you can say "Ha! You gots nothing, see? I knew it!".

    What's the point in that?

    And as you well know, statistics can be used to prove or contradict anything, it simply depends upon how they're gathered, interpreted, and presented.


  • #96
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Iseedeadpixels wrote: »
    Would you prefer we have none? /quote]

    I would prefer if they weren't necessary.


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  • #97
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    can someone explain what rape culture is in a short little paragraph so I can understand? can't really get my head around it as far as I'm aware nobody I know thinks rape is ok or part of our culture?


  • #98
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Also I have never heard of anyone in real life( as opposed to the internet) talk about rape culture.
    Maybe the first rule of rape culture is that you don't talk about rape culture.


  • #99
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    mariaalice wrote: »
    What happened, what are the laws that say only men can be aggressive?
    Won't go into specifics obviously to avoid doxxing. Her parents caught them fooling around and were furious, reported him for it, and all hell broke loose.

    My issue with it is that the law itself is fundamentally sexist. From Citizens' Information:
    Defilement of a child aged under 17 years
    Section 3 of the Criminal Law (Sex Offences) Act 2006 (pdf) as amended by Section 5 of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) (Amendment) Act 2007 (pdf) makes it a criminal offence to engage or attempt to engage in a sexual act with a child under 17 years. The maximum sentence is five years, ten years if the accused is a person in authority. A person in authority means:

    A parent, step-parent, guardian, grandparent, uncle or aunt of the victim, or
    any person acting in loco parentis (in place of parent or parents) to the victim, or
    any person responsible for the education, supervision or welfare of the victim.
    The maximum sentence is greater for a second or subsequent offence.

    The accused may argue that he or she honestly believed that the child was aged 17 years or over. The court must then consider whether or not that belief was reasonable. It is not a defence to show that the child consented to the sexual act.

    The consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions is required for any prosecution of a child under the age of 17 years for this offence. A person who is convicted of this offence and is not more than two years older than the victim is not subject to the requirements of the Sex Offenders Act 2001. This means they will not have their name placed on the Sex Offenders Register.

    A girl aged under 17 years who has sexual intercourse may not be convicted of an offence on that ground alone.

    So if a boy and a girl are both under 17 and have sex, the boy is a monster while the girl is an innocent victim. :mad:
    I think you will find very few people who say only women are the victims of sexism, men are often the victims of sexism as well.

    According to many, many feminists, sexism is "prejudice plus power". In that f*cked up paradigm, someone who isn't privileged (in this case, anyone who isn't male) cannot be sexist against someone who is.

    Read that a couple of times and you'll think I'm having the craic. Visit Reddit's Feminism forum (arguably the biggest feminism forum on the internet) and you will be banned if you disagree with it.


  • #100
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    B0jangles wrote: »
    How should this situation be resolved in your opinion?

    All laws should be gender neutral. Simple as that. One's gender shouldn't be used to make any decisions whatsoever about what societal rules you have to follow or how you are punished for not following them.

    The term "violence against women" is particularly insidious, and I'm surprised that a lot of those ad campaigns don't violate BAI rules on discrimination.


  • #101
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    desertcircus wrote: »
    Even 9/11 truthers aren't this ridiculous.

    How about backing up that statement?


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  • #102
    blatantrereg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭blatantrereg


    Women get custody of children by default. That could favour either women or men depending on the individuals' attitudes.

    Otherwise society is profoundly patriarchical in nature. Girls are taught to be interested in feminine pursuits, which are generally either caretaking/supporting roles or frivolous things like fashion. Boys are much more encouraged to learn how to do things, to think they should take charge. Girls are taught to define themselves on their relationships and to pereive success as marrying an eligible man. Boys are taught to want to succeed for themselves.

    I don't think this is ideal rom male perspectives either. It would be far preferable for men if the norm was for women to seek equal partnerships with men. Some do, but the norm is still for women to look for a successful man to be behind more than beside.


  • #103
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    Ha.

    All of which you speak has their strings pulled by lobby groups, with agendas, none more powerful lobby groups than women's lobby groups who have been influencing all facets of society when it comes to legislation for well over forty years. You couldn't have a more naive opinion on how society is run if you tired.

    An as shining example of how what you suggest is bollox, lets look at some recent comments by UK Justice Minister, Simon Hughes:



    The western world is "run by men"? Yeah, of course it is.

    So... your issue is with men, then? Because last time I checked, Simon is a name usually given to a baby with a winkle.


  • #104
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    cronin_j wrote: »
    If it is its only because men couldn't give a ****. We sit here mumbling about how this and that has changed, but willing to do **** all about it.
    ...
    The only grumble I have in Ireland really is fathers rights, after that nothing else effects me
    The second sentence explains the first.
    Kev W wrote: »
    Why are you comparing statistics for childless women to statistics for men?
    Because it has been shown repeatedly that the role of primary child carer is the principle cause of discrimination and underachievement in careers and given that a tiny percentage of men fill that role one can make that comparison between those two groups.
    mariaalice wrote: »
    As I always ask had anyone met an extreme feminist or even any average feminist in real life, has anyone been personally affected by a feminist agenda what laws in Ireland are anti men and have come about because of political lobbying by women.
    Any law that negatively affects one gender over another, despite being technically gender neutral, will be anti that gender. Of those, laws such as the palimony provisions in the cohabitation bill or even the criminalization of clients of prostitution would be anti men as they would overwhelmingly act against only men. Both were brought in (the latter only awaits rubber-stamping) with heavy lobbying from feminist groups.
    mariaalice wrote: »
    What happened, what are the laws that say only men can be aggressive? I think you will find very few people who say only women are the victims of sexism, men are often the victims of sexism as well.
    Those that govern underage sex. Only males (even if underage themselves) may be perpetrators and prosecuted. Females are never so, and are immune from prosecution, even if older than the boy they have sex with.


  • #105
    Iseedeadpixels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,738 ✭✭✭Iseedeadpixels


    Kev W wrote: »
    Iseedeadpixels wrote: »
    Would you prefer we have none? /quote]

    I would prefer if they weren't necessary.

    As would we all but we all know some men and women are not all there but again tell me how having a centre to help women and men to get over a sexual assault shows we have a culture where it is acceptable to rape someone?


  • #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Won't go into specifics obviously to avoid doxxing. Her parents caught them fooling around and were furious, reported him for it, and all hell broke loose.

    My issue with it is that the law itself is fundamentally sexist. From Citizens' Information:



    So if a boy and a girl are both under 17 and have sex, the boy is a monster while the girl is an innocent victim. :mad:



    According to many, many feminists, sexism is "prejudice plus power". In that f*cked up paradigm, someone who isn't privileged (in this case, anyone who isn't male) cannot be sexist against someone who is.

    Read that a couple of times and you'll think I'm having the craic. Visit Reddit's Feminism forum (arguably the biggest feminism forum on the internet) and you will be banned if you disagree with it.

    You are right that is sexist and discriminate against males, I would like to think the Garda dealing with issues like this have a bit of cop on if the teenagers were in a relationship, its different if they are not in an established relationship because of the ages involved.


  • #107
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    So if a boy and a girl are both under 17 and have sex, the boy is a monster while the girl is an innocent victim. :mad:

    I remember hearing at the time there was some justification about not wanting to shame underage mothers and wondering wtf was right about shaming underage fathers. Surely boys should be encouraged to take the responsibility of being fathers.


  • #108
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    smash wrote: »
    Dont fall for the trap. She said "what laws in Ireland are anti men and have come about because of political lobbying by women". The law you mentioned is ludicrous but it didn't come about because of lobbying by women.

    No, but "equality" minded feminists ignored it. If they weren't sexist, one sided hacks, they'd have been up in arms about the outrageous denial of equal rights in those cases.


  • #109
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,641 ✭✭✭GarIT


    frozenfrozen wrote: »
    can someone explain what rape culture is in a short little paragraph so I can understand? can't really get my head around it as far as I'm aware nobody I know thinks rape is ok or part of our culture?

    Trying to be as neutral as I can it is people who hold the belief that they are owed sex.

    But it can vary wildly form people who believe it is their right to take sex to people that believe it is ok to look at women without asking their permission first.


  • #110
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »
    I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. If a man was afraid of sitting into a taxi on their own I'd consider them paranoid, don't know what the rest of your post is suggesting, perhaps that because I don't think it's unsafe for a woman to travel alone on a taxi that I've no right to question society's attitude towards men?


    The point I was making is that you're suggesting that Western society is anti-man, and someone else could easily and dismissively point out that if you're that paranoid...

    You're expecting that people should take your complaint seriously, while at the same time dismissing someone else's complaint because you're suggesting they're that paranoid. I'm trying to see where you're coming from, but when you so easily dismiss someone else like that, it makes it harder for me to take your point seriously.

    That's exactly why the majority of men have no interest in other men's issues, because often times those men are their own worst enemy and it's easy to see why they feel the way they do.


  • #111
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Actually, this thread from last night perfectly sums up the anti-male bias in the West:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057479667

    The article linked in the thread has been shared all over the internet with humorous anecdotes and "poor bastard, guess he won't cheat again" and other such sh!t. If it was a woman whose genitals had been set on fire by a jilted lover, not one single mainstream outlet would be making fun of her.


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  • #112
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Iseedeadpixels wrote: »
    Kev W wrote: »

    As would we all but we all know some men and women are not all there but again tell me how having a centre to help women and men to get over a sexual assault shows we have a culture where it is acceptable to rape someone?

    I never said that. You seemed to claim that the existence of rape crisis centres was evidence that rape culture doesn't exist. I made the counterargument that the opposite is true, because the primary result of rape culture is - guess what? - rape.


  • #113
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Since victim blaming and rape-jokes clearly exist, how can you possibly deny the existence of rape culture?

    When you say "rape culture" what do you mean, specifically?

    Would you be willing to accept that the phrase is somewhat over-dramatic in terms of what it actually describes when compared to what it appears to mean on the surface?

    People have been murdered in Ireland. We definitely blame murder victims from time to time and people make jokes about murder all the time. I'd say folks are WAY more flippant about murder than they are about rape.

    If you found me telling a group of Spanish or French kids that "Ireland is a Murder Culture" would you not be even slightly tempted to step in and call me out on that kind of bullsh!t?

    The phrase "Rape Culture" appears to describe a culture that accepts, condones and possibly even encourages rape.

    Are you saying that there is another definition?

    Don't you think it's a little dishonest to use the phrase "Rape Culture"? I am thinking that what you probably mean is that we live in a country where the nature of the justice system makes it such that proving guilt for some crimes, like rape, can be extremely difficult.

    So what is the alternative? We should live in a culture where people are punished for whatever crimes they are accused of? Unless they can prove innocence? Or should we have one system for when guilt is easily proven and a secondary system for when it is too difficult to prove guilt?

    Now, this is why we have "victim blaming" (another dishonest phrase in my opinion). If there is a crime that can be committed against you and you have almost no chance of proving that you were a victim of this crime then is it not advisable to take precautionary measures to ensure that you do not become a victim? Where do you draw the line between "victim blaming" and "learning to survive by observing the actions of others"?

    Yes, there should be some form of "teach men not to rape" though maybe not using such dishonest, confrontational, and inflammatory language.

    It is ludicrous to say that because it is difficult to prove guilt in rape cases and because we try to advise women how to protect themselves from becoming victims that we somehow live in a Rape Culture.

    Explain yourself.


  • #114
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    frozenfrozen wrote: »
    can someone explain what rape culture is in a short little paragraph so I can understand? can't really get my head around it as far as I'm aware nobody I know thinks rape is ok or part of our culture?

    In feminist theory, it is suggested that rape culture is a setting in which rape is trivialized and can be evidenced by societal attitude.

    Never noticed it myself.

    https://twitter.com/sarahksilverman/status/353297635161014274


  • #115
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    No, but "equality" minded feminists ignored it. If they weren't sexist, one sided hacks, they'd have been up in arms about the outrageous denial of equal rights in those cases.

    It is interesting that you blame feminists for not lobbying harder to change the laws when it would surely be simpler to cut out the middleman and lay blame on the actual legislators for failing to update the laws.


  • #116
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »
    No, and if you're that paranoid I'd suggest speaking to a therapist.

    Are you worried the taxi driver will attack you because he's a male?
    Unfortunetly it probably does boil down to the fact that the driver is usually male, and that there have been cases of taxi drivers raping drunk passengers, or driving women to remote locations and attacking them. "I'll get into a taxi with a strange man" unfortunately isn't much of a solution when your fear is that you will be raped.

    I'm not saying it's common, but I am saying that it happens, and that to dismiss a worry of something that is known to happen as paranoia is unfair.

    When I was about 16, for example, I worked in a take away. My boss used to drive me home as I finished quite late. He used to enjoy grilling me on whether or not I was having sex with my boyfriend. If I'd been a guy this would probably have been seen as banter. If my boss had been female it would have been weird. If I were male and the boss female it would have been creepy as hell. As it was it was terrifying.
    Kev W wrote: »
    I was only mildly poking fun about your assumption. I know most taxi drivers are male.
    However the fact that you can feel so safe in a male stranger's car that you can dismiss any feeling of unease in that situation as paranoia is an excellent example of male privelege.
    This.


  • #117
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    B0jangles wrote: »
    It is interesting that you blame feminists for not lobbying harder to change the laws when it would surely be simpler to cut out the middleman and lay blame on the actual legislators for failing to update the laws.

    I'm not blaming them, but if they cared about gender-neutral equality then this law would piss them off, and it doesn't.

    My point is, they bleat on and on and on about how women are soooooo oppressed, yet they stay utterly silent when it's demonstrably proven, in black and white on the statute books, that there are also laws which give women an unfair upper hand. So the "men = privileged, women = oppressors" paradigm they peddle is demonstrably bullsh!t.


  • #118
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    B0jangles wrote: »
    It is interesting that you blame feminists for not lobbying harder to change the laws when it would surely be simpler to cut out the middleman and lay blame on the actual legislators for failing to update the laws.

    I imagine most of the TDs that passed the law in 2006 are probably still TDs. It isn't like we are talking about a law from before the state was founded.


  • #119
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    B0jangles wrote: »
    It is interesting that you blame feminists for not lobbying harder to change the laws when it would surely be simpler to cut out the middleman and lay blame on the actual legislators for failing to update the laws.
    I think he was blaming feminists that claim to support equality when in reality they do not.


  • #120
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I think he was blaming feminists that claim to support equality when in reality they do not.

    This. In a case like this, and when your movement is claimed to be a gender equality movement, silence indicates indifference at worst or tacit approval at best. When that same movement attacks men for having a mens' rights movement and says "just join us, we're fighting for equality", it's perfectly legitimate in my view to get pretty pissed off at the utter hypocrisy of it all.


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  • #121
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'm not blaming them, but if they cared about gender-neutral equality then this law would piss them off, and it doesn't.

    My point is, they bleat on and on and on about how women are soooooo oppressed, yet they stay utterly silent when it's demonstrably proven, in black and white on the statute books, that there are also laws which give women an unfair upper hand. So the "men = privileged, women = oppressors" paradigm they peddle is demonstrably bullsh!t.

    So a feminist isn't a real feminist unless they're fighting to make things easier for men?


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