Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

The Lost Sheep · 16-08-2015 11:10PM

Stheno wrote: »

I was too high up to see badness in the scrum yesterday, but what happened to cause Ireland to be penalised three times in scrums

Was it illegal wheeling?

Kilcoyne didn't drive in straight and was penalised once. Cant remember other occasions. I don't think it was wheeling more than 90 though.

sydthebeat wrote: »

I thought he was very good on Saturday.

I know a lot of the nordies don't like him because of THAT game, but always came across as a decent assertive ref on the pitch.

He was good on Saturday. 1 game doesn't define a referee just like any player but some people don't seem to see that about officials...

Stheno · 16-08-2015 11:21PM

There seemed to be three scrums we lost in the first half in quick succession that I am thinking of, memory might be wrong though, just seemed we'd three penalties in a row which were hard to understand.

Zzippy · 16-08-2015 11:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That was an incredibly reasonable statement, are you saying that Healy, McGrath, Ross, Moore are not the proven best two LH's and TH's in Ireland?

If you agree that they are, then you also by default have to agree that an argument against Bent because he is 3rd best in his province does nothing at all to quantify his ranking nationally, as those ahead of him are also ahead of everyone else.

There is no bias in total formers post. Plenty in this thread mind you, but none in what he wrote.

Define "proven". White is IMO ahead of Moore at the moment in terms of quality. Not in the pecking order, but White getting injured at a crucial time last season ruined his chances, while Moore grabbed his chance when he got it. If White hadn't got injured we might have a very different pecking order. Moore having more caps is down to luck, doesn't mean he's demonstrably better.
Agree on Bent though, if we're only taking 5 props he has to travel, which is unfortunate for Kilcoyne and White/Moore.

molloyjh · 17-08-2015 08:03AM

Zzippy wrote: »

Define "proven". White is IMO ahead of Moore at the moment in terms of quality. Not in the pecking order, but White getting injured at a crucial time last season ruined his chances, while Moore grabbed his chance when he got it. If White hadn't got injured we might have a very different pecking order. Moore having more caps is down to luck, doesn't mean he's demonstrably better.
Agree on Bent though, if we're only taking 5 props he has to travel, which is unfortunate for Kilcoyne and White/Moore.

Listen I'm a fan of White, really I am. And maybe if he hadn't have gotten injured he'd have gotten his first cap earlier. But I'm not at all sure I'd say he's better than Moore. That Moore took his chance shows how good the guy is. And his career is only going one way right now. White is more dynamic than Moore is but in general TH play I'd take Moore over White myself.

Noopti · 17-08-2015 08:24AM

Based on his performance from the bench, and the fact Moore is recovering from surgery and has yet still to play....in my mind White is 80% already on the plane to England.

Whatever about giving Healy right to the last minute to prove himself, Moore isn't in that league. If there is any doubt at all about Moore or if he doesn't play the next game then he is not going to be in the WC squad.

total former · 17-08-2015 08:57AM

Well, Moore is definitely the more proven prop at international level, doesn't mean he's better but definitely more proven. Had White been fit in November, he'd have won three caps then and we'd have a better idea of where he's at.

I'd have no major issues with either of them travelling, it's a far cry from 2011 when the choice was between Tony Buckley and a very, very old John Hayes. Jesus when you think back to it...

MattD · 17-08-2015 09:07AM

Noopti wrote: »

Based on his performance from the bench, and the fact Moore is recovering from surgery and has yet still to play....in my mind White is 80% already on the plane to England.

Whatever about giving Healy right to the last minute to prove himself, Moore isn't in that league. If there is any doubt at all about Moore or if he doesn't play the next game then he is not going to be in the WC squad.

White wasn't even originally named in the training squad ahead of Ross, Moore, Furlong and Bent, he's only been dropped in for scrumming competition after injuries. To leapfrog three of them from not being in the squad would be a big leap in Joe's estimations.

.ak · 17-08-2015 09:17AM

There's not a chance Furlong would go to the WC. Not one.

If Moore is injured, White will take his place I reckon.

total former · 17-08-2015 09:20AM

.ak wrote: »

There's not a chance Furlong would go to the WC. Not one.

If Moore is injured, White will take his place I reckon.

Furlong is injured anyway.

Noopti · 17-08-2015 09:22AM

MattD wrote: »

White wasn't even originally named in the training squad ahead of Ross, Moore, Furlong and Bent, he's only been dropped in for scrumming competition after injuries. To leapfrog three of them from not being in the squad would be a big leap in Joe's estimations.

Bent is going as LH/TH cover. White would only be leapfrogging Moore and Furlong. Moore is the incumbent but is recovering from surgery and hasn't even played yet. Furlong wouldn't have been much ahead of White anyway and is also recovering.

So to say it is a big leap just isn't the case. Especially now that White has actually played, and they haven't. Of course it would be a bit of a surprise to have White in the squad, especially if it was said 3 weeks ago, but to be honest I would not at all be surprised now to see Ross/White, McGrath/Healy and Bent travel. If Healy doesn't make it then Kilcoyne going in his place.

Will be very telling who is chosen to start/bench against Wales. If White starts then it is a given he is going. If he benches then probably also a given. Also if Marmion benches then it looks very ominous for Boss.

.ak · 17-08-2015 09:22AM

total former wrote: »

Furlong is injured anyway.

Yep, but even if he was fit... Far too inexperienced and young, even if he is going to be the next 'big' thing...

... Sorry.

awec · 17-08-2015 11:32AM

phog wrote: »

Wasn't sure where to post this but as he's an IRFU ref I posted it here.

A look at the rise and rise of John Lacey as a ref.

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I think this gives some insight into how he has progressed.

mfceiling wrote: »

*sticks fingers into mouth and whistles*....AWEC

thomond2006 wrote: »

Boards.ie needs a tag function....awec where are you?

It's a puff piece, nothing more. It'll take more than a nice photo and an interesting wee tale in the indo to win me over when it comes to Mr Lacey.

Yeah_Right · 17-08-2015 12:05PM

awec wrote: »

It's a puff piece, nothing more. It'll take more than a nice photo and an interesting wee tale in the indo to win me over when it comes to Mr Lacey.

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

irishbucsfan · 17-08-2015 12:07PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

Ulster lost a game that he was refereeing once.

Larbre34 · 17-08-2015 12:14PM

So, when's the next cull from the squad expected to take place?

awec · 17-08-2015 12:16PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

Too many awful performances in Ulster matches. Just like Clancy he's on no northern Christmas card lists.

sydthebeat · 17-08-2015 12:19PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

hes excellent at picking up those nordie cheating ways .......

irishbucsfan · 17-08-2015 12:23PM

awec wrote: »

Too many awful performances in Ulster matches. Just like Clancy he's on no northern Christmas card lists.

Allain Rolland was held in the same regard up north. Them nordies are not quick to forget bad decisions!

.ak · 17-08-2015 02:13PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

Leinster battered Ulster in a final in the RDS a few seasons ago and awec is still looking for excuses.

:pac:

dub_skav · 17-08-2015 02:18PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

Hotel Lady: There ya are now John, a wee Ulster Fry for ya.
John Lacey: Ah I see, it's just a Full Irish with some nasty potato bread.

RichieRich89 · 17-08-2015 04:39PM

I don't get the love for Nathan White. He looks vulnerable in the scrum to me. I'd take Furlong every day of the week ahead of him

Buer · 18-08-2015 11:04AM

Just to provoke some debate, Ruaidhri O'Connor made this selection today based on what we've seen to date and the current status (including injury situation for someone like Trimble who he says rumours suggest his recovery is progressing slowly and he was omitted from squad update yesterday):

Backs (14): Rob Kearney, Dave Kearney, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Robbie Henshaw, Jared Payne, Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson, Johnny Sexton, Isaac Boss, Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan.

Forwards (17): Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Michael Bent, Mike Ross, Nathan White, Devin Toner, Paul O'Connell (capt), Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson, Jordi Murphy, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Chris Henry.

That leaves out Kilcoyne, Moore, Cave, Trimble and Jones among others. I think that could be pretty close to having the squad nailed, to be honest.

flangemeistro · 18-08-2015 11:16AM

Buer wrote: »

Just to provoke some debate, Ruaidhri O'Connor made this selection today based on what we've seen to date and the current status (including injury situation for someone like Trimble who he says rumours suggest his recovery is progressing slowly and he was omitted from squad update yesterday):

Backs (14): Rob Kearney, Dave Kearney, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Robbie Henshaw, Jared Payne, Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson, Johnny Sexton, Isaac Boss, Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan.

Forwards (17): Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Michael Bent, Mike Ross, Nathan White, Devin Toner, Paul O'Connell (capt), Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson, Jordi Murphy, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Chris Henry.

That leaves out Kilcoyne, Moore, Cave, Trimble and Jones among others. I think that could be pretty close to having the squad nailed, to be honest.

There's not much to dispute or argue with there really, only if he's giving Healy the benefit of the doubt to be fit then why isn't he giving Trimble the same privilege?
If so then I'd slot Trimble straight in and Fitz would be gone.

.ak · 18-08-2015 11:17AM

Buer wrote: »

Just to provoke some debate, Ruaidhri O'Connor made this selection today based on what we've seen to date and the current status (including injury situation for someone like Trimble who he says rumours suggest his recovery is progressing slowly and he was omitted from squad update yesterday):

Backs (14): Rob Kearney, Dave Kearney, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Robbie Henshaw, Jared Payne, Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson, Johnny Sexton, Isaac Boss, Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan.

Forwards (17): Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Michael Bent, Mike Ross, Nathan White, Devin Toner, Paul O'Connell (capt), Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson, Jordi Murphy, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Chris Henry.

That leaves out Kilcoyne, Moore, Cave, Trimble and Jones among others. I think that could be pretty close to having the squad nailed, to be honest.

IF Trimble doesn't make it, I'd have DK as a direct replacement if he's hitting good form. I've already made my thoughts clear on Jones so I'd be happy with the above.

White for Moore I'm also okay with. I really like White, he's always been quite sharp in the loose and Moore has never really hit the fitness levels required to get around the park but his scrummaging is probably the best out of the lot.

I think bringing Cave would be silly. He's only a call away and he's never going to get ahead of Henshaw, Payne or Earls.

So yeah, I'd be happy with that. Obviously I'd prefer Trimble to go though.

.ak · 18-08-2015 11:19AM

flangemeistro wrote: »

There's not much to dispute or argue with there really, only if he's giving Healy the benefit of the doubt to be fit then why isn't he giving Trimble the same privilege?
If so then I'd slot Trimble straight in and Fitz would be gone.

I suppose because Trimble wouldn't be considered one of the top 3-5 wingers in the world, where as Healy would be considered in that bracket for his position. We also have crazy strength in depth with the back three now, where as we're not exactly stocked with looseheads. McGrath is an absolute soldier and provides massive amount of work at the breakdown, he's consistently good but he's not a world beater like Healy, and Killer's carrying is awesome but he can be hot n cold otherwise.

The team without Healy is quite different.

If Trimble is fit he'd be replacing DK I'd image in that line up. It seems Joe is looking at Earls solely as a centre... which means Fitz is probably the utility back (He's been used across the backline by Joe before).

BoardsMember · 18-08-2015 11:19AM

Isn't Heaslip the captain?

Sangre · 18-08-2015 11:21AM

.ak wrote: »

I suppose because Trimble wouldn't be considered one of the top 3-5 wingers in the world, where as Healy would be considered in that bracket for his position. We also have crazy strength in depth with the back three now, where as we're not exactly stocked with looseheads. McGrath is an absolute soldier and provides massive amount of work at the breakdown, he's consistently good but he's not a world beater like Healy, and Killer's carrying is awesome but he can be hot n cold otherwise.

The team without Healy is quite different.

If Trimble is fit he'd be replacing DK I'd image in that line up.

Healy is pretty good in the loose but to describe him as one of the top 3 - 5 wingers in the world is a bit much.

.ak · 18-08-2015 11:22AM

Sangre wrote: »

Healy is pretty good in the loose but to describe him as one of the top 3 - 5 wingers in the world is a bit much.

Too slow Sangre, too slow.

flangemeistro · 18-08-2015 11:25AM

BoardsMember wrote: »

Isn't Heaslip the captain?

Buer · 18-08-2015 11:27AM

flangemeistro wrote: »

There's not much to dispute or argue with there really, only if he's giving Healy the benefit of the doubt to be fit then why isn't he giving Trimble the same privilege?
If so then I'd slot Trimble straight in and Fitz would be gone.

One of them hasn't played in almost a year and is far from certain to be in the 23 if he does travel given the strength in depth we have in that area. The latest injury is located very closely to where the injury that ruined the past 10 months was.

The other was playing and training during the 6N and, if he can prove his fitness, is very likely to start the games against Italy and France.

Very different situations.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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