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Irish anti-Islamic group protests mosque in Kerry

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    #272
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    Can you show me a country in history where the natives became a minority and it worked out well for them?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE


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    #273
    baaba maal
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭baaba maal


    No, I don't think ethnicity deserves to be preserved (to use your term). I think the concept of "Irishness" has always, and will always change as different ethnic groups continue to land on these shores- in exactly the same way that Irish people have added to the mixture of ethnicities that make up the US population for example. Native American people originally entered the Americas across a landbridge from Asia. Australian aborigines leapfrogged by boat across the Pacific islands until they reached Oz. Fluidity and interconnectedness have been (in my opinion) one of the defining features of our species.
    I just don't get this erosion of culture/ethnic identity stuff- 15th century Irish chieftains lived in some cases in polygamous relationships- should I feel more connected to these people than a typical Irish Muslim of today who marries monogamously? This is not a trite point- many of the Irish upper classes from even three hundred years ago felt culturally British even if their forebears were here for the previous few hundred years. Culture, ethnicity and identity are incredibly complicated concepts and any attempt to draw a line in the sand on what constitutes being Irish is (IMO) doomed to failure. The recent revalations that the UK government was at one point considering a mass evacuation of it's Hong Kong citizens to NI is an example of just how radically the ethnic makeup of a country could change.
    Relating this back to the OP, I have no issues with a mosque being granted planning-or for anybody to object on planning grounds. At a local level I would want to ensure that I wasn't getting woken up at 5am every morning for the call to prayer- but that is a separate argument (and only in terms of proper planning)- and in fairness I don't think any mosque in Europe has a Muzzein on megaphone?


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    #274
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    It is now racist to not want to ever become a mere minority in your own country? This is pure insanity. Outside of the western world, you would be laughed at if you suggested that the natives of a country should welcome immigration so far as to become minorities in their own land.
    If someone is born in Ireland, they are Irish. And that is the end of it. 4.5mn or thereabouts will not migrate here overnight, so you are paranoid.


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    #275
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    Billy86 wrote: »
    If someone is born in Ireland, they are Irish. And that is the end of it.

    I suggest you look up our citizenship laws. Particularly the 27th Amendment.


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    #276
    dancingchicken
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭dancingchicken


    Thats disgraceful. Why are so many people in this country so backward? Terrorism is a serious problem now and its not caused by religion. It was caused by imperial conquests which haven't even stopped today. Iraq has already been destroyed by an illegal war and now the public have been convinced (again!) that theres a reason for another one..
    USA needed ISIS because they lost public support after the Iraq war. If Ireland wants to prevent a terrorist attack on our soil then we need to stand up to Britain and USA and demand that they leave the Middle East


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    #277
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    I suggest you look up our citizenship laws. Particularly the 27th Amendment.

    The 27th Amendmentshould be torn up. Scaremongering caused it to pass in the first place.


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    #278
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Ethnicity does not respect borders. And neither should it. And it doesn't matter in the first place.
    The concept is vague at best and to use it as a reason to close our borders and make sure to preserve the "Irish Race" (or any other "race") is idiotic and so childish it is laughable. What we are today (and Germany, where I come from) is not the result of closing up our borders and keeping the race pure. We tried it for a few years in the 30's and 40's and look where that lead to.
    You CANNOT point at a countries borders and say "The people within this defined geographic area are one race and everyone else is another". If you do, you should stop sticking your head in the microwave.
    Also, as for race, what race?
    The last time I checked, all of us are fully paid up members of the race homo sapiens. There are some minor differences in appearance, but that is purely superficial.
    And don't worry everyone, if some right wing Germans come over here throwing their weight around, I'll drown them in the Irish Sea myself.

    TL:DR:
    If you say that there are differences between non-existent "races", you are truly deluded.


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    #279
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Ethnicity does not respect borders. And neither should it. And it doesn't matter in the first place.
    The concept is vague at best and to use it as a reason to close our borders and make sure to preserve the "Irish Race" (or any other "race") is idiotic and so childish it is laughable. What we are today (and Germany, where I come from) is not the result of closing up our borders and keeping the race pure. We tried it for a few years in the 30's and 40's and look where that lead to.
    You CANNOT point at a countries borders and say "The people within this defined geographic area are one race and everyone else is another". If you do, you should stop sticking your head in the microwave.
    Also, as for race, what race?
    The last time I checked, all of us are fully paid up members of the race homo sapiens. There are some minor differences in appearance, but that is purely superficial.
    And don't worry everyone, if some right wing Germans come over here throwing their weight around, I'll drown them in the Irish Sea myself.

    TL:DR:
    If you say that there are differences between non-existent "races", you are truly deluded.

    Uhhh... I put it to you that the problem with Germany in the 40's wasn't restrictive boarders so much as it was expanding ones.

    What we can thank the Germans for however is making a debate about nationalism and cultural identity so toxic that 70 years later it can't even be rationally discussed and thus Europe in it's entitiry has been forced to pay the price of German war guilt.

    Tell me this, how did an endless supply of refugees and an open boarder work out for that cultured, modern, progressive and Christian nation of Lebanon?

    That's where you fuzzy, and utterly detached from reality, ideological and impractical support for open boarders gets you, a rapid decline towards the status of third world shoite hole in a perpetual state of (hot and cold) civil war. The issue isn't race, it's culture.


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    #280
    crockholm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Ethnicity does not respect borders. And neither should it. And it doesn't matter in the first place.
    The concept is vague at best and to use it as a reason to close our borders and make sure to preserve the "Irish Race" (or any other "race") is idiotic and so childish it is laughable. What we are today (and Germany, where I come from) is not the result of closing up our borders and keeping the race pure. We tried it for a few years in the 30's and 40's and look where that lead to.
    You CANNOT point at a countries borders and say "The people within this defined geographic area are one race and everyone else is another". If you do, you should stop sticking your head in the microwave.
    Also, as for race, what race?
    The last time I checked, all of us are fully paid up members of the race homo sapiens. There are some minor differences in appearance, but that is purely superficial.
    And don't worry everyone, if some right wing Germans come over here throwing their weight around, I'll drown them in the Irish Sea myself.

    TL:DR:
    If you say that there are differences between non-existent "races", you are truly deluded.

    Yup,that is exactly what Ireland needs,an immigrant coming over here who is willing to kill somebody who disagrees with them.:(;)

    I am conflicted on this,traditionally Europe and Islam were enemies,and the suspicion still lingers-how could it not,one look at the muslim world sees much strife in the name of Islam.
    Yet,I also believe in freedom of conscience-and to deny people of a faith to practice their faith in a designated building would be a great wrong.

    It is a bit like taking in a wild lion cub,for now,small and can be controlled,but it is the fear that what happens when the cub becomes more muscular and independent.

    And as for race,yes,we have much the same ancestry,but we have all gone our separate ways and have become more unique as a result.Would a pathologist be able to identify a specific race by their skeleton/skull alone? If they could do that (or identify someones skin tone by a D.N.A. sample) would that not indicate that we have these little differences,whether you choose to make those differences bigger or smaller to suit your outlook,would be down to the individual.


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    #281
    crockholm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    MadsL wrote: »
    The 27th Amendmentshould be torn up. Scaremongering caused it to pass in the first place.

    79% of the voters voted for it.It wasn't even close.What kind of a democrat are you?


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    #282
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    crockholm wrote: »
    79% of the voters voted for it.It wasn't even close.What kind of a democrat are you?

    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority. What kind are you?


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    #283
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Kev W wrote: »
    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority. What kind are you?

    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority but willing to accept a democratic decision, unlike the whinging left.


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    #284
    crockholm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    Kev W wrote: »
    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority. What kind are you?

    The kind that goes out to vote,and if the vote doesn't go the way I voted for,will respect the decision of my fellow countrymen and will not seek to have the outcome scrapped on a personal bias.

    Thank you for asking.


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    #285
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,928 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    we should help anyone that needs it....but really america and the uk should be paying us to do it...as they f**ing caused it...

    in the old days when you invaded a country you conquered it, the people that survived became citizens ....none of this going in leveling the place and telling the survivors to go f** themselves..Congratulations on your liberation ...here's ISIS ....no need to thank us...


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    #286
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    conorhal wrote: »
    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority but willing to accept a democratic decision, unlike the whinging left.

    Because the right always take it so well when they lose...:rolleyes:


  • Options
    #287
    Alexis Sanchez
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭Alexis Sanchez


    dancingchicken wrote: »
    Thats disgraceful. Why are so many people in this country so backward? Terrorism is a serious problem now and its not caused by religion. It was caused by imperial conquests which haven't even stopped today. Iraq has already been destroyed by an illegal war and now the public have been convinced (again!) that theres a reason for another one..
    USA needed ISIS because they lost public support after the Iraq war. If Ireland wants to prevent a terrorist attack on our soil then we need to stand up to Britain and USA and demand that they leave the Middle East

    Apologist bullshít, the majority of Islamic terrorist attacks are inter-Islamic, where Muslims from different sects blow the crap out of each other over whose brand of Islam is better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

    Blaming everything on America and the UK is just lazy scapegoating or pure nativity. Islam was founded on war and terror, the prophet Muhammad was a warlord who conquered Arabia and forced everyone in the region to convert to Islam, much like the way ISIS are trying to do today.

    P.S.: The Arab Spring would have caused a civil war in Iraq anyway.


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    #288
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    I suggest you look up our citizenship laws. Particularly the 27th Amendment.

    A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency. A child born in Ireland to a parent who has been granted refugee status is also automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

    Under the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, children born of other foreign national parents in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. These parents must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by their having 3 out of the previous 4 years reckonable residence in the island of Ireland immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and can apply for a certificate of nationality - see 'How to apply' below.

    --

    So a child born to:
    1. British or Irish parents.
    2. Parents allowed to live in the ROI or Northern Ireland.
    3. Parents here as refugees.
    4. Parents who have lived here legally for 3 or more of the 4 years prior to the child's birth.

    ...is Irish.

    Do you think we are going to have over 4.5mn children born to illegal immigrants and the like, and/or emigrating here overnight? Because I still cannot see how you are so worried about the Irish becoming a minority in our own country.


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    #289
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    conorhal wrote: »
    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority but willing to accept a democratic decision, unlike the whinging left.

    Good thing plenty those on the right haven't been whingeing lately about any high profile referendum results, so. :pac:


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    #290
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Good thing plenty those on the right haven't been whingeing lately about any high profile referendum results, so. :pac:


    And I know plenty on the right, like me, that voted for it. What I don't see is many on the right suggesting that it was a disgrace that the question of SSM should be put to the electorate to decide in the first place (I have seen many on the left argue this).
    The conservative right on the whole may grumble, but from within the confines of democratic mandates. The left have a very ugly and pernicious taste for the autocratic subversion of democracy. Will Aodhan O' Riordan be offering the public a referendum on the reform or operation of our immigration policy? Like fuk he will. He's only interested in the opinion of unelected quangocrats agreeing with his opinion in the liberal echo chamber of his offices.


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    #291
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    MadsL wrote: »
    The 27th Amendmentshould be torn up. Scaremongering caused it to pass in the first place.

    Do you think so? It passed 79-21. But I would agree that the debate beforehand was toxic. Should it be brought to a new referendum?


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    #292
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    Kev W wrote: »
    Probably the kind that thinks it's okay to disagree with the majority. What kind are you?

    I'd like the vote to go again. If your parents are residents of the state then you should absolutely be born an Irish citizen. Imho. We have lads born here, growing up here and not citizens when they reach 18 and try and visit another EEA member state.

    That's an issue we need to solve.


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    #293
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    I'd like the vote to go again. If your parents are residents of the state then you should absolutely be born an Irish citizen. Imho. We have lads born here, growing up here and not citizens when they reach 18 and try and visit another EEA member state.

    That's an issue we need to solve.

    We have a (horrendously lax) system to naturalse migrants, 30,000 this year, 60,000 last year.
    If you've been here for 18yrs and not bothered to apply then you are either not interested in becoming a citizen, lazy or you shouldn't be here.


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    #294
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Good thing plenty those on the right haven't been whingeing lately about any high profile referendum results, so. :pac:

    There's a debate to be had about unskilled migration, Bill. My father drives a joe and does the doors - he hangs out with these guys and welcomes them. But he does admit that they take the odd EUR from his paypacket.

    Parts of Ireland are much better off since the lads and lassies from central and eastern Europe migrated here in such numbers. They came, they worked and they are now part and parcel of life here.

    But there were some lads that lost out in all this.


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    #295
    baaba maal
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭baaba maal


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    There's a debate to be had about unskilled migration, Bill. My father drives a joe and does the doors - he hangs out with these guys and welcomes them. But he does admit that they take the odd EUR from his paypacket.

    Parts of Ireland are much better off since the lads and lassies from central and eastern Europe migrated here in such numbers. They came, they worked and they are now part and parcel of life here.

    But there were some lads that lost out in all this.

    And Irish people went abroad and took up jobs in those countries. People on the right of the political spectrum generally like the concept of free movement of capital, goods and labour (and I don't know your politics, but I am making an assumption that you are- apologies if I am wrong).


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    #296
    Mesrine65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,969 ✭✭✭Mesrine65


    Jesus was born in a stable...don't make him a donkey :D


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    #297
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    conorhal wrote: »
    We have a (horrendously lax) system to naturalse migrants, 30,000 this year, 60,000 last year.
    If you've been here for 18yrs and not bothered to apply then you are either not interested in becoming a citizen, lazy or you shouldn't be here.

    I'd love Frances Fitzgerald to honestly admit - here are our criteria. You won't get in otherwise.


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    #298
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    My name is URL wrote: »
    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-anti-Islamic-group-protests-mosque-in-Kerry.html

    Just looked into who these guys are and it's all very amusing albeit a worrying trend these days.

    They say they're against Islam and Sharia Law etc, but seem to want to introduce laws that mirror it





    http://www.cppireland.org/WebContent/pages/policy.html

    Anyone heard of these whack-jobs before?

    The Democratic Right Movement. I think they were formed in the mid 2000's there was a split in the movement around 09 which left with a total of 1 member.


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    #299
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Not a NSA agent wrote: »
    These groups always leave me scratching my head. They are against another group which have many similar ideas. You would think they would want to join together.

    We learned with the Soviet Union & Nazi Germany things very similar don't always get along.


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    #300
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    The Democratic Right Movement. I think they were formed in the mid 2000's there was a split in the movement around 09 which left with a total of 1 member.
    They're all essentially the same tiny group of extreme right traditional Roman Catholic nutjubs who left the Christian Centrist Party for being liberal wife-swapping sodomites. Wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of its membership can trace its roots to Muintir na hÉireann and who knows how many other such groups.

    IMHO, they're little more than tiny, inconsequential kitchen committees with mental health problems, that are only taken notice of because the make for easy editorial by lazy journos.


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    #301
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    baaba maal wrote: »
    And Irish people went abroad and took up jobs in those countries. People on the right of the political spectrum generally like the concept of free movement of capital, goods and labour (and I don't know your politics, but I am making an assumption that you are- apologies if I am wrong).
    Groups like this are socially right-wing, not economically so - although they would be economically conservative in the Irish context (protectionism, anti free trade - all that pre-60's Fianna Fail fun and games). Left and right are not simplistic binary definitions, unless you're still young enough not to know any better.


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