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8th Amendment

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    #872
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    All psychiatric services and options should be considered to ensure the safety of mother and unborn baby.
    Including possibly detaining the woman until she delivers the child?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #873
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    How many babies have been killed in the womb because their mothers declared they were suicidal?

    that was the basis of the UK legislation which was so ample that even those who introduced it regretted. it.
    Lord Steel, architect of the 1967 Abortion Act, says today that abortion is being used as a form of contraception in Britain and admits he never anticipated "anything like" the current number of terminations when leading the campaign for reform.


    and he end up here ->
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/9100838/Pregnant-women-have-asked-for-terminations-because-they-did-not-want-their-holidays-spoilt.html


  • Options
    #874
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    am946745 wrote: »
    Abortion does not reduce the Suicide risk.

    There has already been ample debate about this.

    http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21532

    women who had abortions were 6 to 7 times more likely to commit suicide than women who gave birth.

    this again?
    The relationship between induced abortion and mental health is an area of political controversy.[1][2] Major medical bodies have found that induced abortions do not cause mental-health problems, and that the risk of mental-health problems is equal whether an unplanned pregnancy is carried to term or terminated via abortion.[3][4] Pre-existing factors in a woman's life, such as emotional attachment to the pregnancy, lack of social support, pre-existing psychiatric illness, and conservative views on abortion increase the likelihood of experiencing negative feelings after an abortion.[5][6][7]


    In 1990, the American Psychological Association (APA) found that "severe negative reactions [after abortion] are rare and are in line with those following other normal life stresses."[8] The APA updated its findings in August 2008 to account for new evidence, and again concluded that termination of a first unplanned pregnancy did not increase the risk of mental-health problems.[3][9] A 2008 systematic review of the medical literature on abortion and mental health found that high-quality studies consistently showed few or no mental-health consequences of abortion, while poor-quality studies were more likely to report negative consequences.[10] In December 2011, the U.K. National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health published a systematic review of available evidence, similarly concluding that abortion did not increase the risk of mental-health problems.[4][11]


    Despite the weight of medical opinion on the subject, some pro-life advocacy groups have continued to allege a link between abortion and mental-health problems.[12] Some pro-life groups have used the term "post-abortion syndrome" to refer to negative psychological effects which they attribute to abortion. However, "post-abortion syndrome" is not recognized as an actual syndrome by the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association,[13] or the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists;[14] physicians and pro-choice advocates have argued that the effort to popularize the idea of a "post-abortion syndrome" is a tactic used by pro-life advocates for political purposes.[1][12][15][16] Some U.S. state legislatures have mandated that patients be told that abortion increases their risk of depression and suicide, despite the fact that such risks are not supported by the bulk of the scientific literature.[10][17]


    Source

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Options
    #875
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    How many babies have been killed in the womb because their mothers declared they were suicidal?


    ???

    Have you read the POLDP Act?
    It's clearly laid out the mechanisms for terminating a pregnancy where the mother is suicidal.
    While patient's medical records are rightly confidential, I believe the Minister has to report on cases that fall under the Act before the end of the month.
    Do you really think if it allows for a delivery of a severely preterm infant that it won't allow for an earlier term abortion?

    Are we counting the women who went to the UK (much easier for most than have to run the gauntlet in this jurisdiction)?


  • Options
    #876
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    SW wrote: »
    this again?


    Source

    And we are supposed to believe the biased APA’s pro-choice position?


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    #877
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    Reminder: it's not just the UK that allows abortion. Please don't just assume that Ireland will be the exact same as the UK if/when abortion is allowed. A bit of variety would be nice too, thank you.


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    #878
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    Including possibly detaining the woman until she delivers the child?

    I'd let the experts decide if detention is necessary.

    There are people in secure locations for their own safety already. Are you not aware of this?


  • Options
    #879
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    ???

    Have you read the POLDP Act?
    It's clearly laid out the mechanisms for terminating a pregnancy where the mother is suicidal.
    While patient's medical records are rightly confidential, I believe the Minister has to report on cases that fall under the Act before the end of the month.
    Do you really think if it allows for a delivery of a severely preterm infant that it won't allow for an earlier term abortion?

    Are we counting the women who went to the UK (much easier for most than have to run the gauntlet in this jurisdiction)?
    So, how many babies have been killed in the womb by way of this legislation? None?


  • Options
    #880
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    am946745 wrote: »
    And we are supposed to believe the biased APA’s pro-choice position?

    Do you have evidence to the contrary?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Options
    #881
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I'd let the experts decide if detention is necessary.

    There are people in secure locations for their own safety already. Are you not aware of this?

    I am. And I don't agree with detaining women for months until they come to term when all they want is access to an abortion.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #882
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    am946745 wrote: »
    And we are supposed to believe the biased APA’s pro-choice position?

    Are we supposed to believe Patricia Casey's (Patron of Iona, subject of your linked newspaper article) unbiased opinion?


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    #883
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So, how many babies have been killed in the womb by way of this legislation? None?

    Did you not manage to read past the first line of the post you quoted?


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    #884
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Are we supposed to believe Patricia Casey's (Patron of Iona, subject of your linked newspaper article) unbiased opinion?

    I wasn't going to Quote Patricia Casey, but since you brought her into the debate. I ask you the question why would you not take seriously her work? Is she un-qualified as an Irish psychiatrist go give a reasoned opinion?

    Abortion is a polarising debate. Anyone who publishes about the topic gets questioned about the allegiance. The fact he happens to be a Catholic does not take away for her academic secular research on the topic. If pro-choice are going to exclude experts because they don't side with their opinion then there is no debate.


  • Options
    #885
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I'd let the experts decide if detention is necessary.

    Excellent. Let's allow the experts to decide if termination is necessary too then shall we?
    Without having to fret over the constitution, the POLDP act, and the potential of 14 years in prison if they get it wrong.


  • Options
    #886
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    SW wrote: »
    Do you have evidence to the contrary?


    Can you reopen the thread I started on this topic?


  • Options
    #887
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    am946745 wrote: »
    I wasn't going to Quote Patricia Casey, but since you brought her into the debate. I ask you the question why would you not take seriously her work? Is she un-qualified as an Irish psychiatrist go give a reasoned opinion?

    Abortion is a polarising debate. Anyone who publishes about the topic gets questioned about the allegiance. The fact he happens to be a Catholic does not take away for her academic secular research on the topic. If pro-choice are going to exclude experts because they don't side with their opinion then there is no debate.
    You just did that with the APA and UK research you didin't like!
    am946745 wrote: »
    Can you reopen the thread I started on this topic?
    :confused:

    why do you need to post the evidence elsewhere?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Options
    #888
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    SW wrote: »
    You just did that with the APA and UK research you didin't like!

    :confused:

    why do you need to post the evidence elsewhere?

    Are there any moderators on Boards.ie that are not pro-choice?


  • Options
    #889
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    am946745 wrote: »
    I wasn't going to Quote Patricia Casey, but since you brought her into the debate. I ask you the question why would you not take seriously her work? Is she un-qualified as an Irish psychiatrist go give a reasoned opinion?

    .

    But you just did bring her into the debate- the news paper article you quoted was reporting her submission!

    Casey is not just a catholic, she is a patron of Iona, which is so far to the right its over the edge, and as far as I can see, residing somewhere circ 1953. Anything she says is coloured be her allegiance to that group of particularly special people.


  • Options
    #890
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    am946745 wrote: »
    Are there any moderators on Boards.ie that are not pro-choice?
    I fail to see relevance to the discussion.

    Do you have any evidence to post or not?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Options
    #891
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Did you not manage to read past the first line of the post you quoted?

    Not a shred of evidence that one baby was killed in the womb since the passing of X, thank God.


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    #892
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Excellent. Let's allow the experts to decide if termination is necessary too then shall we?
    Without having to fret over the constitution, the POLDP act, and the potential of 14 years in prison if they get it wrong.

    14 years is something to pay heed to I'd daresay.


  • Options
    #893
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    am946745 wrote: »
    Are there any moderators on Boards.ie that are not pro-choice?

    Post of the thread. :D

    Don't let them get you down. ;)


  • Options
    #894
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    am946745 wrote: »
    that was the basis of the UK legislation which was so ample that even those who introduced it regretted. it.

    So what? Do the women and girls of the UK who needed abortions regret it? I believe most of them are relieved they had the choice of having an abortion.

    What anti-abortionists want is to force women who don't want to be pregnant to continue a pregnancy. No matter how much the woman doesn't want it, no matter the risks to her health, no matter the risks to the health of the prospective baby, no matter whether the baby will survive or not.

    It's okay to not have an abortion yourself, even if you really don't want to be pregnant. You can make that sacrifice if you want. But forcing other women to do the same is a monstrous invasion of their autonomy, privacy and right to self-determination.


  • Options
    #895
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    swampgas wrote: »
    So what? Do the women and girls of the UK who needed abortions regret it? I believe most of them are relieved they had the choice of having an abortion.

    What anti-abortionists want is to force women who don't want to be pregnant to continue a pregnancy. No matter how much the woman doesn't want it, no matter the risks to her health, no matter the risks to the health of the prospective baby, no matter whether the baby will survive or not.

    It's okay to not have an abortion yourself, even if you really don't want to be pregnant. You can make that sacrifice if you want. But forcing other women to do the same is a monstrous invasion of their autonomy, privacy and right to self-determination.
    There is a grave responsibility on all pregnant women to do no intentional harm to their unborn babies.


  • Options
    #896
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    There is a grave responsibility on all pregnant women to do no intentional harm to their unborn babies.

    That's fine for you to choose that responsibility for yourself.

    Why should you be allowed to enforce it on anyone else?

    Surely a woman should be allowed to decide for herself, considering just how difficult an unwanted pregnancy might be?

    You can tell a woman that you believe she has that responsibility, but do you really think you have the right to actually force her to go through with it against her will?


  • Options
    #897
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    swampgas wrote: »
    That's fine for you to choose that responsibility for yourself.

    Why should you be allowed to enforce it on anyone else?

    Surely a woman should be allowed to decide for herself, considering just how difficult an unwanted pregnancy might be?

    You can tell a woman that you believe she has that responsibility, but do you really think you have the right to actually force her to go through with it against her will?

    The Law of the land demands it, not I. Though I support it fully and take great pride in the stance we take against the abortion industry.


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    #898
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    The Law of the land demands it, not I. Though I support it fully and take great pride in the stance we take against the abortion industry.

    You're dodging the question here, to be honest. Don't hide behind the current law when the whole point of the discussion is to debate whether the law is fair and just, and whether it needs to be changed or not.

    Why do you, personally, think it is okay to prevent another woman - a citizen who should have equal rights to you - making a different decision to the one you might make?

    .


  • Options
    #899
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Not a shred of evidence that one baby was killed in the womb since the passing of X, thank God.

    Eh, do you need some coffee or something? The evidence isn't public. It's the private medical records of patients. Now, are you advocating that someone should ignore patient confidentiality and disclose said records? As I said, the minister wil report on the first year of legislation circa the end of the month.

    It's beside the point though. The 8th and the POLDP act allow it. If it wasn't for the 8th, I'd be very surprised if termination without time limits due to suicidal ideation would be legal. But glad that you support that ideal.


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    #900
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    swampgas wrote: »
    You're dodging the question here, to be honest. Don't hide behind the current law when the whole point of the discussion is to debate whether the law is fair and just, and whether it needs to be changed or not.

    Why do you, personally, think it is okay to prevent another woman - a citizen who should have equal rights to you - making a different decision to the one you might make?

    .

    I'm not hiding.

    I believe unborn babies have the right to have no intentional harm done to them and the law happens to agree with me.


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    #901
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    am946745 wrote: »
    Can you reopen the thread I started on this topic?


    I'm lost, was that on another part of Boards

    Btw I'm not pro choice or pro abortion, not that it matters when it comes to Modding decisions.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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