8th Amendment

swampgas

Black Menorca wrote: »

Every unborn life saved is to be celebrated.

I suppose the poor woman (or girl) stuck with the unwanted pregnancy should just grin and bear it, while you celebrate the fact that she was forced to endure a pregnancy she really didn't want.

Funny how you can have so much empathy for an "unborn life" which might not even have a nervous system, yet be indifferent to the point of cruelty to a living, breathing, thinking, feeling woman.

Do you think women who don't want to go through with a pregnancy deserve to be punished for some reason ???

Black Menorca

anothernight wrote: »

I'm going to ignore your complete lack of respect to a grieving widower.



Sigh. I'll try again.

You are accusing other posters of abusing the memory of Savita Halappanavar, when all they have done is say or imply that she should have had a life-saving termination. Her husband did the same thing, say or imply that she should have had a life-saving termination.

Does this mean, in your opinion, that he's abusing her memory?

Whether he's posting on boards.ie or not is utterly irrelevant. He did more than the posters here have done, by going to the Irish (and international) media to speak out about the issue.

My comments refer to Irish , I assume, posters here who continue to abuse the memory of Savita in their campaign to introduce abortion into this country.

Shamefully in my view.

Black Menorca

swampgas wrote: »

I suppose the poor woman (or girl) stuck with the unwanted pregnancy should just grin and bear it, while you celebrate the fact that she was forced to endure a pregnancy she really didn't want.

Funny how you can have so much empathy for an "unborn life" which might not even have a nervous system, yet be indifferent to the point of cruelty to a living, breathing, thinking, feeling woman.

Do you think women who don't want to go through with a pregnancy deserve to be punished for some reason ???

Life is full of responsibilities of many shapes and sizes.

One such responsibility is the onerous one on pregnant women to do no intentional harm to their unborn children.

swampgas

Black Menorca wrote: »

Life is full of responsibilities of many shapes and sizes.

One such responsibility is the onerous one on pregnant women to do no intentional harm to their unborn children.

What about the responsibility to treat other people with respect and dignity? What makes you think that your opinion on abortion should be enforced on everyone else?

Also the way you keep talking about "unborn children" makes it sound like you think there is a toddler bouncing around in the uterus of a woman who is a few weeks pregnant. That is simply not the case.

Black Menorca

swampgas wrote: »

What about the responsibility to treat other people with respect and dignity? What makes you think that your opinion on abortion should be enforced on everyone else?

Also the way you keep talking about "unborn children" makes it sound like you think there is a toddler bouncing around in the uterus of a woman who is a few weeks pregnant. That is simply not the case.

It is not I, but the Law of the land that puts such responsibilities on pregnant women. I happen to support it fully, while advocating that every support possible be available to the mother as she goes through the pregnancy process.

The barbarity of abortion is not condoned in this country, of that I am immensely proud.

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

My comments refer to Irish , I assume, posters here who continue to abuse the memory of Savita in their campaign to introduce abortion into this country.

Shamefully in my view.

That doesn't explain why you're not accusing Savita's husband of abusing her memory, even though he did much more 'lobbying', by virtue of going to the media, than the posters here ever did.

Is it because he's not Irish? I'm not Irish either, fyi.

swampgas

Black Menorca wrote: »

It is not I, but the Law of the land that puts such responsibilities on pregnant women. I happen to support it fully, while advocating that every support possible be available to the mother as she goes through the pregnancy process.

The barbarity of abortion is not condoned in this country, of that I am immensely proud.

Actually the law also says that a woman can freely leave the country to access abortion, so the law only puts such responsibilities on women who cannot travel abroad. That doesn't seem to be very consistent from an ethical point of view.

As for supporting women - that's pretty weak. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, supporting her through pregnancy is ignoring the very fact that she really doesn't want to be pregnant. It's obtuse and cruel.

Your opinion that abortion is a "barbarity" is not shared by everyone. It's certainly not the majority view in most of the developed world. Again, why do you think your aversion and distaste for abortion should be imposed on everyone else?

.

oscarBravo

Black Menorca wrote: »

anothernight wrote: »

Is the unwanted pregnancy of a woman who was forced into sex through rape, her duty?

Clearly, yes.

And there's the compassion and empathy of the "pro-life" campaign in all its glory: an 11 year old girl raped by her father has a duty to remain pregnant.

Please, please keep posting.

Black Menorca

swampgas wrote: »

Actually the law also says that a woman can freely leave the country to access abortion, so the law only puts such responsibilities on women who cannot travel abroad. That doesn't seem to be very consistent from an ethical point of view.

As for supporting women - that's pretty weak. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, supporting her through pregnancy is ignoring the very fact that she really doesn't want to be pregnant. It's obtuse and cruel.

Your opinion that abortion is a "barbarity" is not shared by everyone. It's certainly not the majority view in most of the developed world. Again, why do you think your aversion and distaste for abortion should be imposed on everyone else?

.

Sadly true.

But that makes me even more proud of stance we take as a nation in defence of mothers and their unborn babies, despite the pressure from the abortion friendly Western World.

Black Menorca

oscarBravo wrote: »

And there's the compassion and empathy of the "pro-life" campaign in all its glory: an 11 year old girl raped by her father has a duty to remain pregnant.

Please, please keep posting.

All these Irish 11 year olds getting pregnant by rape. Is that how desperate the abortion lobby is getting to justify the opening of the floodgates to abortion on request?

swampgas

Black Menorca wrote: »

Sadly true.

But that makes me even more proud of stance we take as a nation in defence of mothers and their unborn babies, despite the pressure from the abortion friendly Western World.

You make it sound like we "as a nation" are of one mind on this issue. We're not. Plenty of Irish people, probably a significant majority, are in favour of relaxing the almost absolute bar on abortion that currently exists.

What makes you more important than many other Irish citizens, that your take on abortion should be mandated for everyone else?

Just because you're proud doesn't make you right.

Black Menorca

swampgas wrote: »

You make it sound like we "as a nation" are of one mind on this issue. We're not. Plenty of Irish people, probably a significant majority, are in favour of relaxing the almost absolute bar on abortion that currently exists.

What makes you more important than many other Irish citizens, that your take on abortion should be mandated for everyone else?

Just because you're proud doesn't make you right.

Still doesn't make me any less proud.

swampgas

Black Menorca wrote: »

Still doesn't make me any less proud.

So you're proud of keeping something that most people are actually in favour of changing.

Have you ever met anyone who had an abortion?

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

All these Irish 11 year olds getting pregnant by rape. Is that how desperate the abortion lobby is getting to justify the opening of the floodgates to abortion on request?

Actually, many, many people who consider themselves pro-choice don't agree with 'abortion on request'. It's a very nuanced issue, regardless of how black&white your own views might be. A single Irish 11 year old getting pregnant by rape, and being forced to suffer horrible consequences (including a risk to her life), is already one too many.

Now, will you please address my question?

anothernight wrote: »

That doesn't explain why you're not accusing Savita's husband of abusing her memory, even though he did much more 'lobbying', by virtue of going to the media, than the posters here ever did.

Is it because he's not Irish? I'm not Irish either, fyi.

Black Menorca

swampgas wrote: »

So you're proud of keeping something that most people are actually in favour of changing.

Have you ever met anyone who had an abortion?

I'm proud that Ireland, through the 8th and X legislation, is a bulwark against the abortion industry. Yes. Make no apologies for it either.

Black Menorca

anothernight wrote: »

Actually, many, many people who consider themselves pro-choice don't agree with 'abortion on request'. It's a very nuanced issue, regardless of how black&white your own views might be. A single Irish 11 year old getting pregnant by rape, and being forced to suffer horrible consequences (including a risk to her life), is already one too many.

Now, will you please address my question?

I have done, twice already. If you don't like my answer, fair enough.

I'm really not that important. Seriously.

traprunner

Black Menorca wrote: »

I have done, twice already. If you don't like my answer, fair enough.

I'm really not that important. Seriously.

You obviously are because you said in a previous thread that this is your next big political campaign after you lost the same sex marriage one.

Black Menorca

traprunner wrote: »

You obviously are because you said in a previous thread that this is your next big political campaign after you lost the same sex marriage one.

I most definitely did not say that.

There are other political priorities over the coming 12 months other than abortion.

But if the 8th comes under attack, I will do all in my humble power to defend it.

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

I have done, twice already. If you don't like my answer, fair enough.

I'm really not that important. Seriously.

You didn't. You dodged it by saying that you're only accusing Irish posters of abusing the memory of Savita Halappanavar. My question this time was: is it because he's not Irish that you think he's not abusing her memory?

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm proud that Ireland, through the 8th and X legislation, is a bulwark against the abortion industry. Yes. Make no apologies for it either.

Black Menorca

anothernight wrote: »

You didn't. You dodged it by saying that you're only accusing Irish posters of abusing the memory of Savita Halappanavar. My question this time was: is it because he's not Irish that you think he's not abusing her memory?

His nationality is irrelevant. Though India is hardly a paragon for Child Rights, now that you've bring it up. Is he posting here?

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

His nationality is irrelevant. Though India is hardly a paragon for Child Rights, now that you've bring it up. Is he posting here?

You brought up nationality, not me. How is it relevant whether he posts here or not? You accused people of abusing her memory simply by bringing up her name. He's done more than that. He's told his story to Irish and international media, where it is clear that he was in favour of her life-saving termination. And yet you won't accuse him of abusing her memory (and thank god for that...). I'm just wondering why. Why is it only Irish posters on boards.ie that abuse her memory by mentioning her name, and not her own husband speaking out on the exact same issue?

Black Menorca

anothernight wrote: »

You brought up nationality, not me. How is it relevant whether he posts here or not? You accused people of abusing her memory simply by bringing up her name. He's done more than that. He's told his story to Irish and international media, where it is clear that he was in favour of her life-saving termination. And yet you won't accuse him of abusing her memory (and thank god for that...). I'm just wondering why. Why is it only Irish posters on boards.ie that abuse her memory by mentioning her name, and not her own husband speaking out on the exact same issue?

Because they continuously bring up her memory to morbidly peddle their abortion agenda.

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

Because they continuously bring up her memory to morbidly peddle their abortion agenda.

So you accuse them only when they use an inconvenient example? Is that it? Hers is a valid and very relevant example of how the Irish abortion laws can cause the loss of women's life. It's not me saying it, it's experts such as Dr Peter Boylan. But you know this already because it's already been brought up.

Are there any other names that Irish posters of boards.ie shouldn't mention, to avoid being accused of abusing people's memories? Or is hers the only one?

PopePalpatine

Black Menorca wrote: »

All these Irish 11 year olds getting pregnant by rape. Is that how desperate the abortion lobby is getting to justify the opening of the floodgates to abortion on request?

Ms X was 14 when she was dragged through the courts after becoming pregnant after being raped. It's likely that her body would be crippled by the strains of childbirth.

Ms X and Ms Y were both suicidal due to their pregnancies. The Twelfth Amendment guarantees the right of a woman to have an abortion if she is suicidal due to her pregnancy.

Black Menorca

anothernight wrote: »

So you accuse them only when they use an inconvenient example? Is that it? Hers is a valid and very relevant example of how the Irish abortion laws can cause the loss of women's life. It's not me saying it, it's experts such as Dr Peter Boylan. But you know this already because it's already been brought up.

Are there any other names that Irish posters of boards.ie shouldn't mention, to avoid being accused of abusing people's memories? Or is hers the only one?

Boylan's been shilling for abortion for years now.

Three reports, not one said an abortion was a valid 'treatment choice'.

Black Menorca

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Ms X was 14 when she was dragged through the courts after becoming pregnant after being raped. It's likely that her body would be crippled by the strains of childbirth.

Ms X and Ms Y were both suicidal due to their pregnancies. The Twelfth Amendment guarantees the right of a woman to have an abortion if she is suicidal due to her pregnancy.

Right.

How many women committed suicide because they were pregnant?

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

Boylan's been shilling for abortion for years now

So? You don't think that had anything to do with his qualifications and experience in the maternity sector? Surely he has more authority on the matter than you and me combined. Weren't you going on about consistency of belief a few days ago?

Which reports are you talking about btw? Because at least one of them mentions abortion, and not in the way you would like. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/10119109/Irish-abortion-law-key-factor-in-death-of-Savita-Halappanavar-official-report-finds.html

anothernight

Black Menorca wrote: »

Right.

How many women committed suicide because they were pregnant?

I mentioned this study in a different thread, but you might want to know about it. It's called "Suicide: the leading cause of maternal death".
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/183/4/279

Inconvenient eh?

volchitsa

anothernight wrote: »

I mentioned this study in a different thread, but you might want to know about it. It's called "Suicide: the leading cause of maternal death".
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/183/4/279

Inconvenient eh?

And then there's this : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3454210

33% of pregnant women who had attempted suicide and admitted suicidal intent asked for an abortion. This in a country where suicidal intent isn't necessary to get an abortion. So, all those women lying in order to get abortions, eh?

Yet here they are, actually making a suicide attempt and associating their problems with the need for an abortion.

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

How many women committed suicide because they were pregnant?

Very few committed suicide because they couldn't get an abortion, I'd imagine, since we have abortion on demand (if you are not poor, in an institution or an asylum seeker).

It is uncertain how many committed suicide because their pregnancy was a personal disaster and their upbringing meant abortion was unthinkable.