8th Amendment

swampgas

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm not hiding.

I believe unborn babies have the right to have no intentional harm done to them and the law happens to agree with me.

Forget the law for a minute.

You believe something. Someone else believes something different.

Yet somehow your belief should be forced on them, forcing them to continue and endure a pregnancy they don't want ...

What's so special about your belief that it should trump anyone else's?

Black Menorca

swampgas wrote: »

Forget the law for a minute.

You believe something. Someone else believes something different.

Yet somehow your belief should be forced on them, forcing them to continue and endure a pregnancy they don't want ...

What's so special about your belief that it should trump anyone else's?

I force nothing on anyone.

I'm supporting the 8th and the X legislation as both combine to stop the abortion industry getting in.

krankykitty

This "abortion industry" thing is getting boring now. Do you also complain about the cancer industry? The dentistry industry?

Delirium

Black Menorca wrote: »

I force nothing on anyone.

actually you do with regard to the question asked by swampgas, and you've even said as much in a previous post.

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm not hiding.

I believe unborn babies have the right to have no intentional harm done to them and the law happens to agree with me.

Your belief is imposed by law. So why does your belief trump that of a pregnant woman who wishes to abort?

No Voter And Proud

krankykitty wrote: »

This "abortion industry" thing is getting boring now. Do you also complain about the cancer industry? The dentistry industry?

The cancer industry saves lives.
The dentistry industry saves dental health.

The abortion industry kills unborn fetuses.

See the difference?

krankykitty

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

The cancer industry saves lives.
The dentistry industry saves dental health.

The abortion industry kills unborn fetuses.

See the difference?

They aren't exactly "industries" though and that's the point I'm making. Why is abortion provision an "industry"? The NHS provide abortion free of charge for example. And private clinics who charge to those who wish to pay are no different to private dentists or physiotherapists or whatever, who provide healthcare for a charge.

Abortion provision (choice) saves maternal health, wellbeing and lives. Mental health is also health. It is a part of normal healthcare in most every other developed country in the world.

No Voter And Proud

krankykitty wrote: »

They aren't exactly "industries" though and that's the point I'm making. Why is abortion provision an "industry"? The NHS provide abortion free of charge for example. And private clinics who charge to those who wish to pay are no different to private dentists or physiotherapists or whatever, who provide healthcare for a charge.

Abortion provision (choice) saves maternal health, wellbeing and lives. Mental health is also health. It is a part of normal healthcare in most every other developed country in the world.

I'm all too aware of the importance of mental health.
But aborting a pregancy (pro choice speak) or killing an unborn baby (pro life speak) is not the same as preventing cancer or having a tooth pulled.

The cancer industry saves lives, whereas the abortion industry stops lives.

krankykitty

you do know most abortions occur before 12 weeks. And why does the life of the foetus always trump the life of the living breathing woman? That's not equality. The 8th amendment isn't actually being upheld in a lot of cases, because women are given less rights, not equal rights to the foetus.

Look, for all those who don't want abortion in Ireland, don't you know Irish women are already having abortions? The 8th amendment is only stopping the those who can't travel, those who can't afford it and those who are too ill to travel. in other words, affecting those who are already at risk.

No Voter And Proud

krankykitty wrote: »

you do know most abortions occur before 12 weeks. And why does the life of the foetus always trump the life of the living breathing woman? That's not equality. The 8th amendment isn't actually being upheld in a lot of cases, because women are given less rights, not equal rights to the foetus.

The life of the fetus is equal to that of the woman, so she can't just go and kill it off. That's equality.

krankykitty wrote: »

Look, for all those who don't want abortion in Ireland, don't you know Irish women are already having abortions? The 8th amendment is only stopping the those who can't travel, those who can't afford it and those who are too ill to travel. in other words, affecting those who are already at risk.

That old chestnut again?
Just because something is legal in other countries doesnt mean it should be legal or encouraged here.

krankykitty

Pregnancy and childbirth is a risky process to the health in itself. It raises a woman's lifetime risk of depression/mental health disorder

Women with unintended pregnancy are four times more likely to suffer from postpartum depression (Link

I sometimes get the feeling some people think that pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child is some sort of trivial event that women should just be able to put up with, whether they want to or not and regardless of the negative effects on them

krankykitty

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

The life of the fetus is equal to that of the woman, so she can't just go and kill it off. That's equality.


That old chestnut again?
Just because something is legal in other countries doesnt mean it should be legal or encouraged here.

Its HAPPENING here. to our citizens. In some cases, on Irish soil, without proper medical supervision. Let's just ignore that so!

No Voter And Proud

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

The life of the fetus is equal to that of the woman, so she can't just go and kill it off. That's equality.

We all know that that just is not true.

Simple thought experiment will tell you that you don't really value them like this. It's barbaric to even pretend it.

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

traprunner

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

That old chestnut again?
Just because something is legal in other countries doesnt mean it should be legal or encouraged here.

Yeah that old chestnut. Pro-lifeForWhatPotentiallyCouldBe think that it's ok to have an abortion elsewhere once it's not in Ireland. Lets export the problem because we can ignore it then.

No Voter And Proud

krankykitty wrote: »

Pregnancy and childbirth is a risky process to the health in itself. It raises a woman's lifetime risk of depression/mental health disorder

Women with unintended pregnancy are four times more likely to suffer from postpartum depression (Link

I sometimes get the feeling some people think that pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child is some sort of trivial event that women should just be able to put up with, whether they want to or not and regardless of the negative effects on them

They should mitigate the risks by using contraception. And perhaps if a child is really that much of an abhorrence, abstaining altogether.

krankykitty wrote: »

Its HAPPENING here. to our citizens. In some cases, on Irish soil, without proper medical supervision. Let's just ignore that so!

Good idea, we shouldn't ignore it, we should be chasing them up and punishing them to the full extent of the law. Why is it acceptable to break the law here?

Deleted User wrote: »

We all know that that just is not true.

Simple thought experiment will tell you that you don't really value them like this. It's barbaric to even pretend it.

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

Is the life that she and her partner created worthless? It is deemed worthless if you allow it to be killed.

traprunner

krankykitty wrote: »

This "abortion industry" thing is getting boring now. Do you also complain about the cancer industry? The dentistry industry?

For educational purposes this is what industry means.

industry
ˈɪndəstri/
noun
noun: industry

1. 1.
   economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories.
   "new investment incentives for British industry"
   synonyms:manufacturing, production, fabrication, construction "the decline of British industry"
   
   
   
   
   
   • a particular form or branch of economic or commercial activity.
     plural noun: industries
     "the car industry"
     synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
     informalracket
     "the publishing industry"
     
     
     
     
     
     
   • informal
     an activity or domain in which a great deal of effort is expended.
     "the Shakespeare industry"
     synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
     informalracket
     "the publishing industry"
     
     
     
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
2. 2.
   hard work.
   "the kitchen became a hive of industry"
   synonyms:hard work, industriousness, diligence, assiduity, application, sedulousness, sedulity, conscientiousness, steadiness, tirelessness, persistence, pertinacity, perseverance, dedication, determination, rigour, rigorousness; More
   
   
   
   

No Voter And Proud

traprunner wrote: »

Yeah that old chestnut. Pro-lifeForWhatPotentiallyCouldBe think that it's ok to have an abortion elsewhere once it's not in Ireland. Lets export the problem because we can ignore it then.

We should extinguish the problem not export it.

@No

@No Voter And Proud

I didn't mention the life of the fetus. I'm only commenting on you holding them equal.

Are the 'components' of the woman's life that I've mentioned totally and utterly worthless?

Are they wholly out of consideration?

No Voter And Proud

traprunner wrote: »

For educational purposes this is what industry means.

industry
ˈɪndəstri/
noun
noun: industry

1. 1.
   economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories.
   "new investment incentives for British industry"
   synonyms:manufacturing, production, fabrication, construction "the decline of British industry"
   • a particular form or branch of economic or commercial activity.
     plural noun: industries
     "the car industry"
     synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
     informalracket
     "the publishing industry"
   • informal
     an activity or domain in which a great deal of effort is expended.
     "the Shakespeare industry"
     synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
     informalracket
     "the publishing industry"
   
   
2. 2.
   hard work.
   "the kitchen became a hive of industry"
   synonyms:hard work, industriousness, diligence, assiduity, application, sedulousness, sedulity, conscientiousness, steadiness, tirelessness, persistence, pertinacity, perseverance, dedication, determination, rigour, rigorousness; More

Abortions are not free are they? No.
They are paid for, either through direct taxation in the uk (which is a laughable concept in itself) or directly by the unmentionables who avail of the service.

traprunner

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

We should extinguish the problem not export it.

Then why aren't you protesting at the airports?

No Voter And Proud

Deleted User wrote: »

@No Voter And Proud

I didn't mention the life of the fetus. I'm only commenting on you holding them equal.

Are the 'components' of the woman's life that I've mentioned totally and utterly worthless?

Are they wholly out of consideration?

I mentioned it.
Because they are both of equal worth.
Except, if you are comparing the quality of life of the mother versus the sheer existence of the child. Then I'm sorry but the right to mere existence trumps the right of the mother to exist happily.

traprunner

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Abortions are not free are they? No.
They are paid for, either through direct taxation in the uk (which is a laughable concept in itself) or directly by the unmentionables who avail of the service.

So your posting here is an industry too. Someone is paying for it, be it the government through social welfare, an employer or if you are self employed then it's your customers. Your idea of industry is what's laughable.

No Voter And Proud

traprunner wrote: »

Then why aren't you protesting at the airports?

I'd love to. But as an employee of two different industries I cannot abandon my post.

Once I hit pensionable age I will be!

No Voter And Proud

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Abortions are not free are they? No.
They are paid for, either through direct taxation in the uk (which is a laughable concept in itself) or directly by the unmentionables who avail of the service.

Sick women?
Underage Women?
Women who know that they could not fairly treat, nurture and love a child?
Women who cannot bear the thoughts of carrying and delivering a fetus which will die in their womb?

These aren't unmentionable. They're not people to be scared of, they're women you meet every single day.

No Voter And Proud

traprunner wrote: »

So your posting here is an industry too. Someone is paying for it, be it the government through social welfare, an employer or if you are self employed then it's your customers. Your idea of industry is what's laughable.

What's laughable is that none of the counter points I raised were addressed, the goal posts were moved with ridiculous tangents and strawmen.

traprunner

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I'd love to. But as an employee of two different industries I cannot abandon my post.

Once I hit pensionable age I will be!

Social welfare will pay for you to protest at the airports. Show that you have conviction in your beliefs!

Delirium

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Good idea, we shouldn't ignore it, we should be chasing them up and punishing them to the full extent of the law. Why is it acceptable to break the law here?

So women should spend 14 years in prison for using a pill that's available in other European countries?

No Voter And Proud

Deleted User wrote: »

Sick women?
Underage Women?
Women who know that they could not fairly treat, nurture and love a child?
Women who cannot bear the thoughts of carrying and delivering a fetus which will die in their womb?

These aren't unmentionable. They're not people to be scared of, they're women you meet every single day.

If you kill your own child (born or unborn) then you are the lowest form of low unmentionable scum

No Voter And Proud

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I mentioned it.
Because they are both of equal worth.
Except, if you are comparing the quality of life of the mother versus the sheer existence of the child. Then I'm sorry but the right to mere existence trumps the right of the mother to exist happily.

Can you please try to flesh this out?

Deleted User wrote:

Simple thought experiment will tell you that you don't really value them like this. It's barbaric to even pretend it.

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

Can you answer the direct question?

No Voter And Proud

SW wrote: »

So women should spend 14 years in prison for using a pill that's available in other European countries?

Yes.
If they do it here on Irish soil (as mentioned by the other poster) then yes they should.

traprunner

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

What's laughable is that none of the counter points I raised were addressed, the goal posts were moved with ridiculous tangents and strawmen.

So it's wrong to correct the use of language?