Ukrainian Conflict 2014 - ? (Take II)

BoJack Horseman · 10-06-2015 9:02am

Count Dooku wrote: »

Ukrainian army moving east, looks like Poroshenko decided to go for big war

If only!

A convoy of APCs & a handful of MLRS is nothing close to putting the heavy kit in the mix & all out war.

Can anyone identity the missile mount on the side of the BTRs?
It looks to me like a strela launcher?
An anti-armour missile would make much more sense.
** edit ** turns out they are 'Konkur' ATGMs.... Which makes much more sense.

And yes, a lot of Russian kit has been coming across the border.
A renewed Russian offensive looks inevitable for the summer (just like last year).

Elmer Blooker · 10-06-2015 11:01am

Count Dooku wrote: »

Ukrainian army moving east, looks like Poroshenko decided to go for big war

You mean the NATO proxy army?
Porochenko doesn't decide anything, peace must be avoided at all costs in Ukraine.

A renewed Russian offensive looks inevitable for the summer

As usual I presume the propaganda is already written and prepared in advance.

Dannyboy83 · 10-06-2015 11:13am

Boris Nemtsov's daughter flees Russia:

http://europe.newsweek.com/boris-nemtsovs-daughter-flees-russia-328454

The daughter of slain Kremlin-critic Boris Nemtsov, has confirmed reports that she has left Russia after receiving threats, as she accused government propaganda outlets of encouraging the murder of her father.

Dannyboy83 · 10-06-2015 11:22am

Russia offers Tax Amnesty due to unprecedented capital flight

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/09/news/economy/russia-offshore-cash-pardon/
Capital outflows from Russia tripled in 2014 to $151.5 billion, the highest amount ever recorded. And 2015 is not looking much better, with $32.6 billion fleeing the country in the first quarter, according to the country's central bank.

BoJack Horseman · 10-06-2015 11:52am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

As usual I presume the propaganda is already written and prepared in advance.

When the Kremlin is ready, they will let you know!

robindch · 10-06-2015 1:44pm

gandalf wrote: »

Lots of reports of Russians sending tanks and heavy weapons to the border for weeks now.

Quite a few of those reports suggesting that the Russian soldiers who've been ordered to Ukraine's border or beyond, come increasingly from East Russia, where they're less likely to have family connections with Ukraine, and therefore, be less likely to have significant personal problems with any current or future invasion.

Elmer Blooker · 10-06-2015 2:51pm

gandalf wrote: »

Lots of reports of Russians sending tanks and heavy weapons to the border for weeks now.

Lots? Do you mean more Reuters regurgitation? They really know how to churn it out for the masses!

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/05/reuters-exclusive-russian-troops-near-ukraine.html

Dannyboy83 · 10-06-2015 4:16pm

Saakashvili presents three-stage transformation program for Odesa region
http://uatoday.tv/news/saakashvili-presents-three-stage-transformation-program-for-odesa-region-436293.html

Saakashvili noted that all the above measures are aimed at combatting corruption, which is a major problem in the region.

robindch · 10-06-2015 7:27pm

Igor Girkin, one of the earliest of the Kremlin's guys in Donetsk, notes that only a fool would think that the pop-up separatist movements in East Ukraine were not Putin's doing:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/06/10/ex-terrorist-leader-only-an-idiot-will-deny-that-the-republics-in-donbas-are-a-kremlin-creation/

Strelkov wrote:

They see the chaos that is going on there. And the chaos is quite terrible. They [the militants] come there being motivated, understanding that they were going to defend the ‘Russian world,’ but now are forced to defend regimes that were planted with the Kremlin’s support. It is useless and foolish to deny this. To think that they [the separatist “republics”] formed by themselves means making an idiot or a fool out of oneself,

BoJack Horseman · 10-06-2015 9:10pm

Two things I seen today:

The US Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee approved expenditure of up to $300m to assist Ukraine for the next year.
This would represent 8% of Ukraine's defence expenditure.

That is as much as Latvia spends in a year on defence.
That pays for a lot more than 140 troops training a few hundred national guardsmen.

http://news.usni.org/2015/06/09/senate-appropriations-bill-adds-12-super-hornets-1-6b-to-navy-shipbuilding

The bill also contains $789 million for European Reassurance Initiative to counter Russian aggression, $300 million to arm and train Ukrainian forces

The 43rd annual NATO & friends Baltic naval exercises are underway......

Below is a breakdown of what countries are contributing.....

Interesting to see neutral & non-NATO members Finland & Sweden contribute quite a bit.

Gatling · 10-06-2015 10:43pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Can anyone identity the missile mount on the side of the BTRs?
It looks to me like a strela launcher?
An anti-armour missile would make much more sense.
** edit ** turns out they are 'Konkur' ATGMs.... Which makes much more sense.

I believe there called Barrier Anti tank/armour launchers

IrishTrajan · 10-06-2015 11:26pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

Ukrainian army moving east, looks like Poroshenko decided to go for big war

It was the Russians who escalated by giving the separatists MBTs for a renewed offensive.

Count Dooku · 13-06-2015 9:52am

IrishTrajan wrote: »

It was the Russians who escalated by giving the separatists MBTs for a renewed offensive.

Or to improve their defence and reduce Kyiv temptation to military solution of political problem

Gatling · 13-06-2015 10:02am

Count Dooku wrote: »

Or to improve their defence and reduce Kyiv temptation to military solution of political problem

It's not a political problem it's a military problem Russian troops in another sovereign country fueling an internal conflict to suit a Kremlin agenda

BoJack Horseman · 13-06-2015 10:03am

Count Dooku wrote: »

Or to improve their defence and reduce Kyiv temptation to military solution of political problem

Your off message komrade.

There are no Russian forces in Ukraine.... sure there isn't?

Elmer Blooker · 13-06-2015 1:31pm

Gatling wrote: »

It's not a political problem it's a military problem Russian troops in another sovereign country fueling an internal conflict to suit a Kremlin agenda

After 16 months you still can't come up with any evidence whatsoever!
Reuters? Bellingcat?

Gatling · 13-06-2015 2:23pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

After 16 months you still can't come up with any evidence whatsoever!
Reuters? Bellingcat?

How much more evidence do you want .

We've (multiple posters ) have posted videos, photos ,interviews with seperatist /rebels leaders who have publicly admitted that Russian troops have siezed most of the land from Ukraine illegally.
We now have Russian special forces captured and about to face trials in Kiev .

Now what exactly would you like

Lemming · 13-06-2015 2:38pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

After 16 months you still can't come up with any evidence whatsoever!
Reuters? Bellingcat?

If you believe that Russia allows servicemen to just "go on holiday" to a foreign country taking tanks, armoured personnel carriers, BUKS (remember those?), artillery, small arms, and munitions - all of which cost a not-inconsiderable amount of Russian tax payers money and risking their loss whilst racking up costs on using all of the above, then you are either naieve in the extreme or wilfully ignorant and desperate to fit reality into some propoganda world view that reads suspiciously like the Kremlin line.

But even if you're not any of the above then explain me this; if all those servicemen are "volunteers", then just who is asking them to volunteer for combat in another country whilst being supplied by their own military's hardware?

Further consider this .... every army is like an iceberg; there is roughly a one-third : two-thirds ratio between fighting arms and support logistics. So for everyt mile the armour moves, there is a substancial fuel cost, for every shell fired, for every missile fired there is significant cost. And that's on top of basics such as food, water, and small-arms munitions as well as pay. The rebels do not have that sort of logistics back-end for all the supposed support they've suddenly just materialised. They do not have the munitions or fuel stock piles, and more importantly they do not have the means of funding ANY of this.

AbusesToilets · 13-06-2015 9:26pm

You realise Putin has admitted on tv that Russian troops were in the Ukraine and took part in seizure on Crimea last year, right?

Gatling · 13-06-2015 9:51pm

Looks like America is readying heavy equipment including MBTS, IFVs ,Heavy Artillery, and up to 3000-5000 men if plans are supported

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0&referrer=

Count Dooku · 13-06-2015 10:51pm

Lemming wrote: »

If you believe that Russia allows servicemen to just "go on holiday" to a foreign country taking tanks, armoured personnel carriers, BUKS (remember those?), artillery, small arms, and munitions - all of which cost a not-inconsiderable amount of Russian tax payers money and risking their loss whilst racking up costs on using all of the above, then you are either naieve in the extreme or wilfully ignorant and desperate to fit reality into some propoganda world view that reads suspiciously like the Kremlin line.

But even if you're not any of the above then explain me this; if all those servicemen are "volunteers", then just who is asking them to volunteer for combat in another country whilst being supplied by their own military's hardware?

Further consider this .... every army is like an iceberg; there is roughly a one-third : two-thirds ratio between fighting arms and support logistics. So for everyt mile the armour moves, there is a substancial fuel cost, for every shell fired, for every missile fired there is significant cost. And that's on top of basics such as food, water, and small-arms munitions as well as pay. The rebels do not have that sort of logistics back-end for all the supposed support they've suddenly just materialised. They do not have the munitions or fuel stock piles, and more importantly they do not have the means of funding ANY of this.

If British SAS can go Syria and Libya, why Russian Spetsnaz cannot do the same in Ukraine to protect local Russians from Ukrainian neo-Nazi thugs

Gatling · 13-06-2015 11:01pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

why Russian Spetsnaz cannot do the same in Ukraine to protect local Russians from Ukrainian neo-Nazi thugs

Does that include shooting down civilian airliners .
Or sending in tanks and heavy artillery with no mandates from the Ukrainian people to do so

Count Dooku · 13-06-2015 11:04pm

Gatling wrote: »

Does that include shooting down civilian airliners .
Or sending in tanks and heavy artillery with no mandates from the Ukrainian people to do so

Do you mean that allies should ask permission from Germans when they were liberating them from Hitler?

Gatling · 13-06-2015 11:11pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that allies should ask permission from Germans when they were liberating them from Hitler?

Did the Kremlin ask the same of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Latvia and so on and so on.

liberation, invasion, oppression, massacres

InTheTrees · 13-06-2015 11:29pm

Gatling wrote: »

Looks like America is readying heavy equipment including MBTS, IFVs ,Heavy Artillery, and up to 3000-5000 men if plans are supported

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0&referrer=

Oh I think the plan is going ahead alright.

Back in 2004 it was assumed the new NATO countries wouldnt need military support because Russia wasnt quite as messed up as its become.

Welcome to the new Cold War. Next we wait it out and see who's economy collapses first.

Manach · 14-06-2015 12:10am

Slightly OT on the Russian embargo, but reading from a book on Russian IT (Spam Wars by Krebs) it would seem that the Russian state is adapt at developing alternatives. For instance the curbs on financial and carding industry is being bypassed by an effort to create home-grown alternatives with an even more intertwinned links between the Russian establishment & security services.

Lemming · 14-06-2015 1:11am

Count Dooku wrote: »

If British SAS can go Syria and Libya, why Russian Spetsnaz cannot do the same in Ukraine to protect local Russians from Ukrainian neo-Nazi thugs

Whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatabout .. ...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Please! If your argument is falling apart around your ears, try and talk about someone else eh? Ye olde tried, tested, and very easily spotted tired tactic of olde.

This thread is not about the British SAS, and if you want to start a thread discussing their being in Libya and/or Syria, then feel free to do so. Incidentally, NATO had a mandate to operate in Libya.

Lemming · 14-06-2015 1:15am

Manach wrote: »

Slightly OT on the Russian embargo, but reading from a book on Russian IT (Spam Wars by Krebs) it would seem that the Russian state is adapt at developing alternatives. For instance the curbs on financial and carding industry is being bypassed by an effort to create home-grown alternatives with an even more intertwinned links between the Russian establishment & security services.

TBH, that's a bit like applying a sticky plaster over a sucking chest wound; i.e. it ain't going to end well. The Soviet Union fell apart with no small part due to economic inefficiency/corruption (if we set the obvious political landscape to one side). The union bred corruption, gave little or no incentive for workers to improve themselves or the processes and activities on which they worked, and generally haemmorraged money for little return. Mixing the state into the running of private businesses to such a degree is just going to end up back in the same situation in the long run.

IrishTrajan · 14-06-2015 1:54am

Lemming wrote: »

Whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatabout .. ...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Please! If your argument is falling apart around your ears, try and talk about someone else eh? Ye olde tried, tested, and very easily spotted tired tactic of olde.

We're at Stage Three... http://i.imgur.com/ka4Gmd0.png

BoJack Horseman · 14-06-2015 9:08am

Gatling wrote: »

Looks like America is readying heavy equipment including MBTS, IFVs ,Heavy Artillery, and up to 3000-5000 men if plans are supported

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0&referrer=

1 armoured brigade.... Spread over 6 nations. ..

The bots will jump all over that like its a threat to mother Russia.

Its a small diplomatic card to play, but militarily, its something even the Irish army can overwhelm.

Ukrainian Conflict 2014 - ? (Take II)

Comments