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Ukrainian Conflict 2014 - ? (Take II)
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Elmer Blooker wrote: »It doesn't occur to you that the current Russian government might be the one that Russians want and if the "west", meaning the US of course, doesn't like that then too bad.
I don't think any sovereign nation should require the permission/approval of another to choose their own government.
But Russia doesn't have Majority Rule,
- therefore Russians do not choose their own government,
- therefore it's improbable that Russians have the government they want anyway.
'Supporting the government you have', does not equal 'having the government you want', but is not unusual where Siege Mentality is concerned.
I'm trying to avoid going off topic here, but I don't think you are considering this rationally to be honest.
It may help you to take this out of the Cold War terms for a moment and equate in the context of our own history; When Ireland engaged in an economic war with Britain, it was so self destructive, it's questionable whether it could even be considered a pyrrhic victory. That situation was definitely 'mild' in comparison to the bed Russia has made;
Russia is in a state of economic meltdown, diplomatic self-destruction, suffering Dutch Disease, multiple former allies are now sworn enemies and those who dissent are imprisoned or murdered in view of the Kremlin, all while engaged in an irredentist war against a historical blood brother.
An overwhelming clusterf**k.Elmer Blooker wrote: »The last I heard Putin's popularity stands at 85%.
That figure is incorrect, his rating was recently upgraded to 89%
Putin's personal popularity has increased - which I don't dispute.
The actual figure I would dispute - if there were any point:rolleyes: (When Russians were asked who they would like to see elected when the actual ballot is due (in March 2018), 57 percent replied they would be happy if Putin is reelected. Twenty-five percent said they would prefer someone else and 19 percent found it difficult to make a choice.) - , but certainly from anecdotal experience, he became much more popular following the Crimea annexation.
This is not unprecedented by any means:
Hitler's popularity soared following the French campaign,
Thatcher's following Falklands,
Bush following Iraq.
As you know, the story never ends there.
Given your manifest affection for America, I am sure you would be the first to agree that high approval ratings are not necessarily a validation of good governance or ethical conduct.
Nobody has a clear picture of the actual situation in Russia in my honest opinion, including the Kremlin, but it's clear that the picture which has been painted is not nearly perfect:http://www.rferl.org/content/rumblin.../27039567.html
In elections to the local council in Kaliningrad Oblast's Baltisky district, the ruling United Russia party failed to secure even a single seat. Turnout was 47.7 percent, unusually high for a local council election.
The online newspaper Gazeta.ru called it "a crushing defeat" for the party of power.
And the international picture is much more telling:http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2015/08/Pew-Research-Center-Russia-Image-Report-FINAL-August-5-2015.pdf
According to the Pew Research Center's new report, only three countries in the world have a net positive opinion of Russia: China, Vietnam, and Ghana. Worldwide, a median of just 30 percent view Russia favorably.
In Europe, just 26% view Russia favorably,
in the Middle East, only 25% do.
In Latin America, it's only 29%.
In the regions most favorably inclined toward Russia — Asia and Africa — it's just 37%.
And if Russia's global image is bad, Putin's is dismal.
Worldwide, just 24% trust him.
In Europe, just 15% do.Elmer Blooker wrote: »Apparently the Russian government under Yeltsin and his oligarchs (many now born again democrats exiled in the west) wasn't a "problem" when life expectancy had fallen into the 50s and Russians were starving in the streets.
This issue is most complex in the entire story and requires a thread of it's own.
But there is a shorter point to be made:
Economic divergence between Poland and Ukraine:2015 contrast is even more grim:
Poland, pm- net: €737 ($801)
Ukraine, pm -net: €120 / ($130)
This trend persists when contrasting countries within the Russian sphere against those who have moved out of the Russian sphere.0 -
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Count Dooku wrote: »Why nobody cares about Saudi Arabia, where there is no NGO at all?
People do care - Saudia Arabia ranks at 7 - Worst of the Worst.
They just care less, because Saudia Arabia
- has cultural issues, whereas Russia merely has leadership issues
- isn't invading anybody and
- doesn't possess the capacity to end the human race.
I'm surprised you chose SA, when you could have chosen North Korea!
Why would that be I wonder?Count Dooku wrote: »Freedom House report is more measuring lelel of USA support rather than real freedom. How many opposiotion media can you name in Oman, which is 40 positions above Russia?
Here is the comparison chart:
Do you know why Oman is 40 places above Russia?
It's not because Oman has improved!Count Dooku wrote: »This is how Western propaganda is trying to present Russia
If you have evidence to substantiate your point, then present it.
Otherwise, it's just your opinion.Count Dooku wrote: »If you will check you link, you will see that most journalists have been killed before Putin came to power, but who cares?
Putin was appointed head of the FSB by Yeltsin, 25th July 1998.
You can count yourself...Count Dooku wrote: »BTW, for some reason, Committee to Protect Journalist, mentioned only one journalist killed in Ukraine in 2015, while in reality it was three
http://www.rt.com/news/250245-ukraine-opposition-journalist-dead/
In addition to Serhiy Nikolayev, metioned by CPJ, it was also Sergey Sukhobok and Oles Buzina.
I know that you will tell that only pro-Western journalists should be counted, but still...
So why don't you email CPJ and ask why they have not been included?
O RLY?Count Dooku wrote: »Really?Count Dooku wrote: »Russia is not banning NGO, Russia is banning foreign funding of NGO, but again, who cares?
Even not banning, but forcing NGO to declare themsleves as foreign agent, so Russian people will know it
Fiona Corcoran, Founder of the Greater Chernobyl Cause, received the Order of Friendship award, but didn't receive any Russian funding...http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/putin-was-chatty-and-friendly-says-irish-humanitarian-1.2016299
The Greater Chernobyl Cause relies almost entirely for support from fundraising activities in the towns and villages of Ireland.
And here is the funding for the Chernobyl shield:The EU has pledged €250 million towards the cost of the Safe Confinement project; the US €182 million, Germany €60 million, the UK €53 million, Ukraine €45 million, Russia €15 million:rolleyes:. Ireland has contributed €8 million towards the cost of building a gigantic concrete shield or ‘sarcophagus’ over the still leaking reactor.Count Dooku wrote: »Is it what Western propaganda says?
Russian State mostly own few most popular channels, like British own BBC and Ireland PravdaRTE. Most of newspapers, online news agencies and radio stations are in private ownership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Russia
Intersting.
You choose to use a Russian medium to question the impartiality of an Irish one...Freudian slip?Count Dooku wrote: »Again, Western media created such impression
I see - and what impression does this create?https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/12/russia-bans-reddit
13th August - Reddit, one of the most popular destinations on the Internet, has been added to Russia's list of banned websites.Count Dooku wrote: »So everybody who doesn't like it, can use Facebook.
The only real disapointment will be for NSA, who won't be able to collect data about VK users
You do realise the reason Pavel Durov was chased out of Russia, was because he refused to give VK data to the FSB on Ukrainian dissidents?http://www.ewdn.com/2014/04/22/durov-says-he-gave-up-vkontakte-share-because-of-anti-maidan-pressure-from-fsb/
Vkontakte founder forced to resign after revealing anti-Maidan pressure from FSB
“On December 13, 2013 the FSB demanded that we disclose personal information on the leaders of Euromaidan [the Kiev-based movement that organized protests against the regime of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovich]. Our response to such requests has always been ‘no,’ as Russian jurisdiction does not cover VKontakte’s Ukrainian users. Giving Ukrainians’ personal data away to Russian authorities would not only have been illegal, it would also have been disloyal to the millions of Ukrainian citizens who trusted us,” Durov explained.Count Dooku wrote: »So Russian people will have to use Opera and anonymizers more
Did you know GitHub is blocked in Russia?https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8692584
hal9000xp 252 days ago
I live in Russia (Moscow) and I'm working for leading russian internet company. I'm very annoyed by current political and economical situation. I was so upset by events happening last months that I simply stopped reading russian news at all. And I spent all the time in places like GitHub, Topcoder, English Wikipedia, Hacker News etc. Yesterday, I've tried to make yet another commit to my private repository and suddenly I failed to connect to GitHub. After basic checking of network, I started searching for a news, and I got it.
In a big picture, it's not just russian politicians who tight control over the free internet. The main problem in russia is not just politicians, it's a vast majority of russian people who voted for Putin and his party and totally support current regime.
May be for western people it's hard to believe how can it be possible to support this crazy regime. I can tell you that even top managers from leading russian internet company (from my private conversation with them) dreamed about great russian firewall because in that case, they won't have competitors like Google. Furthermore even IT guys like Putin regime and don't get worry about crazy laws passed against the internet. I assure you in that because many of my colleagues really like Stalin and really like what's happening in Ukraine. Almost all people in Russia really hate western world. They don't care about currency exchange rates and inflation, they care only about imperialism. When Putin made desision about Crimea, and when people totally supported it, I stopped believe in Russia at all.
Russia is a pure soviet country, with pure 100% soviet mindset, vast majority of russian people like idea of self-isolation. This is why Russia has no future as a liberal market-driven country.
And this is why I'm actively looking for a job abroad.0 -
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Why Russians should have leader, which suits USA rather than them?Dannyboy83 wrote: »People do care - Saudia Arabia ranks at 7 - Worst of the Worst.
They just care less, because Saudia Arabia
- has cultural issues, whereas Russia merely has leadership issues
My apologies, I forgot that Yemen doesn’t countDannyboy83 wrote: »- isn't invading anybody and
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-08-12/saudi-and-uae-boots-ground-intensify-yemen-war
Not yetDannyboy83 wrote: »- doesn't possess the capacity to end the human race.
I knew that you will mention NK :-DDannyboy83 wrote: »I'm surprised you chose SA, when you could have chosen North Korea!
Why would that be I wonder?
Are you serious that country with absolute monarchy without any political parties/independent media and where you even cannot buy Playboy in newsagent, has more freedom than Russia?Dannyboy83 wrote: »Here is the comparison chart:
Do you know why Oman is 40 places above Russia?
It's not because Oman has improved!
Simple - Ukraine has even more censorship and less freedom, but Western media are trying to present Russia as evilDannyboy83 wrote: »If you have evidence to substantiate your point, then present it.
Otherwise, it's just your opinion.
Try to google about Oles Buzina, Sergey Sukhobok, Ruslan Kotsaba or attacks on offices of various media in Kiev
if it would happen in Russia, it would be a massive hysteria in Western newspapers, but in Ukraine it is acceptable
Are you saying that head of FSB is the most powerful person in Russia?Dannyboy83 wrote: »Putin was appointed head of the FSB by Yeltsin, 25th July 1998.
You can count yourself...
Why should I? Thanks to CPJ, they did a good job by voiding all your references to so called “independent” sources as politically biasedDannyboy83 wrote: »So why don't you email CPJ and ask why they have not been included?
And?Dannyboy83 wrote: »And here is the funding for the Chernobyl shield:
It never been a secret for Russian people that a lot of charities have foreign funding
The only NGO are really affected, were NGO which were existing on foreign money, but pretended to be Russian and their opinion can presented as opinion as Russian people
Actually, Pravda is the Soviet brand, but your nickname says that you was to young to remember itDannyboy83 wrote: »Intersting.
You choose to use a Russian medium to question the impartiality of an Irish one...Freudian slip?
This is what happens when you mention only one part of storyDannyboy83 wrote: »I see - and what impression does this create?
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/13/russia-unblocks-reddit
Like Snowden was chased out of USA. FSB is not alone to get access to personal data of usersDannyboy83 wrote: »You do realise the reason Pavel Durov was chased out of Russia, was because he refused to give VK data to the FSB on Ukrainian dissidents?
Actually was and for few days onlyDannyboy83 wrote: »Did you know GitHub is blocked in Russia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub#Censorship
Anyway, thanks to making perfect example of brainwashing by Western propaganda0 -
Count Dooku wrote: »Why Russians should have leader, which suits USA rather than them?
That's the point tovarish - they don't.http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/putin-era-prosperity-fades-as-more-russians-slip-into-poverty/523422.html
last year, as Russian economic growth stalled, the number of Russians below the poverty line increased by 600,000 people to reach 16.1 million. The increase was the largest annual rise since 2000, and left 11.2 percent of the population in official poverty, according to Rosstat.
This year, with the economy expected to shrink by around 3 percent, will be worse.
The Economic Development Ministry said earlier this year that the share of people whose incomes are below the living minimum would increase to 12.4 percent by the end of 2015, according to news agency RIA Novosti.
Based on Rosstat's end-2014 population figure of 143.75 million, that rise would put 1.7 million more people into poverty, raising the number in penury to just over 17.8 million.
The World Bank in an April report was bleaker, predicting that 14.2 percent of Russians would be in poverty by the year's end, implying an increase of more than 5 million people to 20.4 million.
Count Dooku wrote: »My apologies, I forgot that Yemen doesn’t count
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-08-12/saudi-and-uae-boots-ground-intensify-yemen-war
Actually, I concede this point to you tovarish.
Anti-Totalitarianism 534,432: Count Dooku 1
It amazes me that you actually continue this debate tovarish, you are giving us so many topics to research about Russia, I am starting to think you are a Freedom Fighter trying to expose Russian Totalitarianism!Count Dooku wrote: »Not yet
Then you of course share our concerns since Russia is not immune to nuclear attack/terrorism eitherhttps://news.vice.com/article/russia-is-now-vulnerable-to-surprise-nuclear-attack
Russia Is Now Vulnerable to Surprise Nuclear Attack
Russia's space-based early warning system, designed to alert the nation to an inbound nuclear missile attack, is offline, leaving Moscow partially blind to potential intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) attacks.Count Dooku wrote: »I knew that you will mention NK :-D
- You claimed Russia has press freedom tovarish
- I present evidence showing you are wrong - Russia does not have press freedom
- You tried to justify Russian Totalitarianism, by comparing to other totalitarian states
- You didn't mention NK because they're a Russian ally. Instead you mentioned SA because they're an American ally.
- I mentioned your omission of North Korea to demonstrate to the other viewers of this thread (10k+) your tribal mindset.
Therefore, it's clear to readers how a tribal mindset distorts rational thinking.
Yawn...Are you serious that country with absolute monarchy without any political parties/independent media and where you even cannot buy Playboy in newsagent, has more freedom than Russia?
I've presented the evidence tovarish.
It's up to you to provide counter-evidence, personal opinions are meaningless.Simple - Ukraine has even more censorship and less freedom, but Western media are trying to present Russia as evil
Any evidence tovarish?Try to google about Oles Buzina, Sergey Sukhobok, Ruslan Kotsaba or attacks on offices of various media in Kiev
if it would happen in Russia, it would be a massive hysteria in Western newspapers, but in Ukraine it is acceptable
Yea, I agree with you tovarish - it's deplorable. There are hundreds of atrocities being committed in Ukraine. On BOTH sides.
Is anyone pretending otherwise?
That is why we want Russia to end the invasion and use diplomacy.
Are you saying Vladimir Putin was not head of the FSB tovarish?Are you saying that head of FSB is the most powerful person in Russia?
Western Propaganda is it? :rolleyes:
Because I happen to agree with you tovarish - it's curious that these journalists have been omitted, when anti-Western journalists from the rest of the world are not omitted.Why should I? Thanks to CPJ, they did a good job by voiding all your references to so called “independent” sources as politically biased
It may come as a shock to you tovarish, but most Western people think about Russia as infrequently as they think about Africa.
It doesn't occupy the position of importance in Western minds that you ascribe it i.e. in the way that Russians think about America for example, or in the way that Irish people used to think about Britain.
Ireland lived in the shadow of Britain, and Britain was at the forefront of Irish decision making.
But Britain looked out upon an entire Empire, and barely gave Ireland a second thought.
The same goes for the world and Russia.
Russia obsesses over America, and imagines every one reads about Russia in the news.
That couldn't be further from the truth.
We live in a highly connected world, from which Russia has totally cut herself off a few years ago.
Nobody wants to slight Russia, because nobody even thinks about Russia anymore, (until it begin invading it's neighbours)And?
It never been a secret for Russian people that a lot of charities have foreign funding
Charities were forbidden during the Soviet era tovarish.
It's never been a secret for the Russian people, that foreigners fund the care of their sick and elderly, while the Russians spend money on weaponsThe only NGO are really affected, were NGO which were existing on foreign money, but pretended to be Russian and their opinion can presented as opinion as Russian people
Present evidence tovarish.Actually, Pravda is the Soviet brand, but your nickname says that you was to young to remember it
Wrong, Pravda.ru is a Russian publication tovarish
http://www.pravda.ru/This is what happens when you mention only one part of story
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/13/russia-unblocks-reddit
erm...I think you forgot to finish your sentence there tovarish?
Did you have a point?Like Snowden was chased out of USA.
Must try harder tovarish.
Zuckerberg is Durov's counterpart.
I praise Snowden's actions and condemn American surveillance, but America did not sink as low as Russia in this case tovarish.
Russian war criminals murdered protesters at Maidan using evidence stolen from VK.FSB is not alone to get access to personal data of users
The Iron Curtain lives tovarish.Actually was and for few days only
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub#Censorship
So the censorship is over, tovarish?A Facebook page protesting an event against the prosecution of Alexey Navalny was blocked in the Russian Federation.
A Roskomnadzor representative stated that the page was blocked because it promoted an "unsanctioned mass event".:rolleyes:Anyway, thanks to making perfect example of brainwashing by Western propaganda
What is thanks to a perfect example of brainwashing by Western Propaganda?
Mysterious tovarish...0 -
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It called Dutch disease, Russia was too much dependent from oil/gas revenues and Ukraine has very little to do with it.Dannyboy83 wrote: »This year, with the economy expected to shrink by around 3 percent, will be worse.
Now Russia got an opportunity to reduce import, especially from EU, and boost own industry.
In some countries it even worseDannyboy83 wrote: »The Economic Development Ministry said earlier this year that the share of people whose incomes are below the living minimum would increase to 12.4 percent by the end of 2015, according to news agency RIA Novosti.
U.S. poverty rate drops for first time since 2006
Actually, early warning system doesn't protect Russia(or USA). It just increase number of missiles, which will be launced for retaliationDannyboy83 wrote: »Then you of course share our concerns since Russia is not immune to nuclear attack/terrorism either
Even 10 Russian missiles, survivied after strike, can destroy 100 targets, so I don't think that USA will be tempted to launch surprise attack before November, when it will be ready.
Any names of independent media in Oman?Dannyboy83 wrote: »I've presented the evidence tovarish.
http://www.rt.com/news/253117-nato-ukraine-terror-site/Dannyboy83 wrote: »Any evidence tovarish?
actually modern days version of proscription
Do you mean let Ukrainian perform ethnic cleansings in Novorossia, similar to Operation Storm?Dannyboy83 wrote: »That is why we want Russia to end the invasion and use diplomacy.
FYIDannyboy83 wrote: »Wrong, Pravda.ru is a Russian publication tovarish
http://www.pravda.ru/
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/100491
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056538909
https://steverawson.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/more-rte-pravda-style-rubbish-dished-up-by-harry-crosbie-on-the-late-late-last-night/
http://www.politics.ie/forum/media/187985-newstalk-new-pravda.html
etc
Why Zuckerberg should leave, if NSA already has full access to his servers?Dannyboy83 wrote: »Zuckerberg is Durov's counterpart.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-23123964
I lost my hope to get from you real examples of censorship in Russia with thousands of sites blockedDannyboy83 wrote: »So the censorship is over, tovarish?A Facebook page protesting an event against the prosecution of Alexey Navalny was blocked in the Russian Federation.
A Roskomnadzor representative stated that the page was blocked because it promoted an "unsanctioned mass event".
Next time look there, but still apart from blocking those sites nothing happened with their authors in comparison with paying hundreds of thousands for exposing corruption in Department of Arts or in Irish Red CrossDannyboy83 wrote: »- You claimed Russia has press freedom tovarish
- I present evidence showing you are wrong - Russia does not have press freedom
- You tried to justify Russian Totalitarianism, by comparing to other totalitarian states
- You didn't mention NK because they're a Russian ally. Instead you mentioned SA because they're an American ally.
- I mentioned your omission of North Korea to demonstrate to the other viewers of this thread (10k+) your tribal mindset.
Therefore, it's clear to readers how a tribal mindset distorts rational thinking.
FYI, number of views != number of viewers
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/lifestyle/mashable-ukraine-is-banning-films-and-tv-shows-that-glorify-russias-military-385189.htmlDannyboy83 wrote: »Any evidence tovarish?
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/11/ukraine-just-banned-38-russian-books
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/08/09/world/europe/ap-eu-ukraine-blacklist.html?_r=1
Most of Western people are capable to think what Western propaganda will tell themDannyboy83 wrote: »It may come as a shock to you tovarish, but most Western people think about Russia as infrequently as they think about Africa.0 -
This discussion has been closed.
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