Ukrainian Conflict 2014 - ? (Take II)

BoJack Horseman

ticklemetoe wrote: »

One sign of hope for us is i see is the USA they are talking about national service,

Welcome very new fish.

Link?
(One not written by 'Tyler Durden')

IrishTrajan

ticklemetoe wrote: »

looks like the west has hit a dead end in ukraine and are now stirring up trouble in armenia.
the western economies must be much worse that we know they are, the west is itching for a big war with either Russia, china or ISIS. Any conflict will do to jump start the economic growth of the west

When your economy is stagnant a war drains the economy and leaves it worse off. It is only when your economy is booming would a war benefit your economy. Compare the Korean War and the Vietnam War. One was fought during a booming economy and was a success, the other was fought with a declining economy and was an abject failure.


But, of course, there is no room for facts here, you see only the evil MIC and the CIA and all that jazz.

Public_Enema

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If Russia approached Canada/Mexico for military alliance, they'd be laughed out of the room.

Such an utterly irrelevant counter-point.

By stating if the shoe was on the other foot in my previous post. I really couldn't have made my point any more simplistic for you. You being deliberately imperceptive was quite predictable though.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The truism goes...

Join NATO & the EU, become safe & prosper.
Don't? Then you don't.

Christ, I nearly vomited there, the Goebbelsesque propaganda speak was that strong.

BoJack Horseman

Public_Enema wrote: »

By stating if the shoe was on the other foot in my previous post.

Round here friend, we call it 'whataboutery in defence of tyranny'

Christ, I nearly vomited there, the Goebbelsesque propaganda speak was that strong.

Facts speak for themselves guy.
There is plenty of data out there.

Just look at the economic development & quality of life improvements in the 3 Baltic states vs that of Moldova, Ukraine & Belarus who weren't so lucky in ditching the grip of the dying empire.

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Just look at the economic development & quality of life improvements in the 3 Baltic states vs that of Moldova, Ukraine & Belarus who weren't so lucky in ditching the grip of the dying empire.

Mostly because they managed to send excess of workforce to UK and Ireland and live on money sent their emigrants back to home. Europe is not big enough to accommodate migrant millions of workers from Ukraine & Belarus

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Mostly because they managed to send excess of workforce to UK and Ireland and live on money sent their emigrants back to home. Europe is not big enough to accommodate migrant millions of workers from Ukraine & Belarus

Mostly?

Can you support with data Comrade?

Nothing to do with free trade, market liberalisation & labour reform?

And plenty of unfortunates from Ukraine & Belarus still enter the EU anyway.

Fun fact for Putinistas..... After Syrians, the 2nd most common people claiming asylum in the EU in 2013/14 is .... Russians.

Gatling

I see the Dutch authorities have penciled in October for the release of the MH 17 investigation report

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Can you support with data Comrade?

Latvia makes 2.5% of GDP from personal remittances, Lithuania - 4.4%
And this is before multiplication effect
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.TRF.PWKR.DT.GD.ZS

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nothing to do with free trade, market liberalisation & labour reform?

If it would really work, population wouldn't decline so dramatically

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Fun fact for Putinistas..... After Syrians, the 2nd most common people claiming asylum in the EU in 2013/14 is .... Russians.

It was true only for 2013, but sharply changed in 2014

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics

IrishTrajan

Count Dooku wrote: »

Latvia makes 2.5% of GDP from personal remittances, Lithuania - 4.4%

So the other 97.5% isn't made from remittances. You said their development stems mostly from personal remittances. I don't know about you, but 2.5% doesn't seem that huge.

Count Dooku wrote: »

If it would really work, population wouldn't decline so dramatically

The dramatic decline means that it had to be policies 20, 30, 50 years previously that led to a change in the demographics. Russia is suffering just as badly with its demographics.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Natural_Population_Growth_of_Russia.PNG/450px-Natural_Population_Growth_of_Russia.PNG


Notice how Russia's crack coincides with both Latvia's and Estonia's?

Count Dooku

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So the other 97.5% isn't made from remittances. You said their development stems mostly from personal remittances. I don't know about you, but 2.5% doesn't seem that huge.

This is why I mentioned multiplication effect

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Russia is suffering just as badly with its demographics.

Not really


Latvia Is A Success Story, If By 'Success Story' You Mean 'Disaster' - Forbes

IrishTrajan

Count Dooku wrote: »

Not really


Latvia Is A Success Story, If By 'Success Story' You Mean 'Disaster' - Forbes

First you compared Latvia's population from 1950 until now (which followed a similar curve as Russia from that point), and now you change it from 2000 until 2012. Cutting it at a such a short term is ridiculous.

And comparing total GDP between Russia and Latvia is farcical. Latvia is never going to be a world power, it doesn't make sense to compare total GDP, rather you should compare the GDP per capita as a measurement of standard of living... And Latvia's is higher than Russia's. As a matter of fact, the Baltics are all higher than those who didn't join the EU: Russia, Belarus, Ukraine.


This argument came from the point that the Baltics prospered as part of the European Union, whilst Ukraine/Belarus/Russia did not. You've tried to morph this into comparing Latvia's position in the world against Russia's, when it was never going to compete with Russia anyway, and we were comparing living standards.

It is absolutely true that living standards are higher in the Baltics than in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, and no amount of "what about total population" is going to change that.

Just watching a BBC News 24 programme called HARDtalk. It's about Russia's far east around Vladivostok, on Russia's border with China and North Korea, near Japan.

If the BBC spin on it is to be believed Russia is in huge trouble with "only 6 million people living in an area the size of Europe". Russia is dependent on Chinese and Korean investment and rents out millions of acres to companies from those countries who produce all sorts of crops on the land as there are not enough Russians. In fact, Russians are leaving despite the huge strategic importance of this land for Russia. The programme repeatedly made the point that Russia's future is in the east, not the west.

Why, therefore, does Putin's government not solve its problem there by offering free land and other privileges to self-declared Russians in Ukraine etc and focus on building a real Russian population in the east? (Aside from farming, Russia depends almost entirely on Chinese workers to build up cities like Vladivostok)

glued

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just watching a BBC News 24 programme called HARDtalk. It's about Russia's far east around Vladivostok, on Russia's border with China and North Korea, near Japan.

If the BBC spin on it is to be believed Russia is in huge trouble with "only 6 million people living in an area the size of Europe". Russia is dependent on Chinese and Korean investment and rents out millions of acres to companies from those countries who produce all sorts of crops on the land as there are not enough Russians. In fact, Russians are leaving despite the huge strategic importance of this land for Russia. The programme repeatedly made the point that Russia's future is in the east, not the west.

Why, therefore, does Putin's government not solve its problem there by offering free land and other privileges to self-declared Russians in Ukraine etc and focus on building a real Russian population in the east? (Aside from farming, Russia depends almost entirely on Chinese workers to build up cities like Vladivostok)

It suits Putin to have Russians in Ukraine. Culturally Eastern Russia is not all that different but it's vastly isolated. You would be better off in rural Ukraine than living in Eastern Russia. There are massive problems with education, policing, transport and water in Eastern Russia. The investment would outweigh the benefits. The infrastructure in general is extremely poor and most people get back to modern civilisation by plane as opposed to driving or the trans-Siberian railway.

There are re-population programmes but they are failing. The population has been declining year-on-year for nearly two decades. It'll be very hard to populate the region significantly considering the poor infrastructure.

Dannyboy83

Deleted User wrote: »

Russia is dependent on Chinese and Korean investment and rents out millions of acres to companies from those countries who produce all sorts of crops on the land as there are not enough Russians.

Vice had an interesting documentary on the North Korean slave labour camps in Russia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awQDLoOnkdI

Count Dooku

IrishTrajan wrote: »

First you compared Latvia's population from 1950 until now (which followed a similar curve as Russia from that point), and now you change it from 2000 until 2012. Cutting it at a such a short term is ridiculous.

And comparing total GDP between Russia and Latvia is farcical. Latvia is never going to be a world power, it doesn't make sense to compare total GDP, rather you should compare the GDP per capita as a measurement of standard of living... And Latvia's is higher than Russia's. As a matter of fact, the Baltics are all higher than those who didn't join the EU: Russia, Belarus, Ukraine.


This argument came from the point that the Baltics prospered as part of the European Union, whilst Ukraine/Belarus/Russia did not. You've tried to morph this into comparing Latvia's position in the world against Russia's, when it was never going to compete with Russia anyway, and we were comparing living standards.

It is absolutely true that living standards are higher in the Baltics than in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, and no amount of "what about total population" is going to change that.

As I said - the main reason for that is because Baltic states managed to export excess of workforce to EU. Can work only for small countries
BTW - How Latvia's shrinking population became a security threat

Count Dooku

Ceasefire in action - Donetsk today under artillery fire from Ukrainian army

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Ceasefire in action

Just add it to the list...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbass_(July_2015%E2%80%93present)

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Just add it to the list...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbass_(July_2015%E2%80%93present)

Your link says nothing about yesterday shelling
I prefer to trust more to video evidences rather than propaganda

Birthday party in Donetsk yesterday

InTheTrees

Count Dooku wrote: »

I prefer to trust more to video evidences rather than propaganda

And what do those video evidences prove? Not much.

Probably someone doing some creative fishing in the river.

BoJack Horseman

Next time, Ivan wants to make sure he's acting "legally".

https://news.vice.com/article/moscow-is-having-second-thoughts-about-giving-up-the-baltic-states

Russia's legal authorities are reviewing whether the ex-Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are legally independent countries, the Russian state-controlled Interfax news agency reported on Tuesday.

The move comes after two Russian legislators requested the review, suggesting that the Soviet Union illegally granted independence to the three tiny countries on the Baltic Sea in northern Europe as the communist superpower was collapsing in the early 1990s.

"The decision to recognize the Baltic States' independence is defective, as it was adopted by an unconstitutional body," an unnamed source close to the parliamentary inquiry told Interfax.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Next time, Ivan wants to make sure he's acting "legally".

https://news.vice.com/article/moscow-is-having-second-thoughts-about-giving-up-the-baltic-states

It's almost getting comedic now at this stage .
I'm sure the Baltics aren't going back to Russia any time soon

BoJack Horseman

A BBC crew are embedded with Russian Nazi movements, its on at the moment.

Show is called: "Far right & proud".

Worth checking out.

pablomakaveli

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A BBC crew are embedded with Russian Nazi movements, its on at the moment.

Show is called: "Far right & proud".

Worth checking out.

Are they the guys from the Russian National Unity front? I've heard some of their members have been involved in Ukraine.

BoJack Horseman

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Are they the guys from the Russian National Unity front? I've heard some of their members have been involved in Ukraine.

They were at one of the featured marches.... Their swastika like emblem is easily recognised.

The presenter & his crew were primarily embedded with another Nazi group though.... Some incredible interviewing & attitudes on display...
One neo -Nazi told the interviewer (who was mixed race) that his offspring would be likely born deformed due to their mixed race.

The second episode of three will look at the Russian far-right attitudes towards homosexuality

Lemming

Some deeply disturbing attitudes on display; and I'm not referring to the stereotypical neo-nazis who didn't disappoint in their expected behaviour. There are three bits that I found particularly disturbing; the "fashion" office (which I suspect having watched that is Kremlin funded), that Blonde "social media model"'s video about how Russia would destroy the entire world if they didn't get their way - cue video montage of mushroom cloud, and when Reggie is at Vadim's home and being shown the knives. The way Vadim played with one of the knives and the look on his face just screamed "psycho" to me.

But the expected displays by neo-nazis aside, the insane levels of everyday casual xenophobia & paranoia on display were just mind boggling from what appeared to be otherwise intelligent, educated young people. Reggie had a very good term for it; a feeling of abject desolation.

stevejazzx

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A BBC crew are embedded with Russian Nazi movements, its on at the moment.

Show is called: "Far right & proud".

Worth checking out.

Why exactly?
Do you believe this is just happening in Russia?
Honestly a bit of perspective would be nice in your posts.

• Here are the BBC embedded with Ukrainian Nazis
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCtt2iir9Iw
  Focusing mainly on an anti Russian slant of course. Propaganda of the piece is apparent to a 5 year old.
• Germany last year - 17,000 join far march
  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/22/anti-islam-march-germany-sing-christmas-carols
• UKIP in the UK
• The Scandinavian countries are seeing a surgein recent of far right attitudes.
  
  I could go on and on of course....
  

Russia just sentenced this guy to life in jail
http://www.timesofisrael.com/leader-of-russian-neo-nazi-group-sentenced-to-life/

BoJack Horseman

stevejazzx wrote: »

Do you believe this is just happening in Russia?

No.... Quote the post where I said that please.

a bit of perspective would be nice in your posts

The perspective is that Russia is the heartbeat of Europe's far-right, even providing funding to other far-right movements across Europe.

I'm as anti-Nazi as it gets, your welcome to your contrarian opinion though.

Russia just sentenced this guy to life in jail
http://www.timesofisrael.com/leader-of-russian-neo-nazi-group-sentenced-to-life/

Wow.... Someone was sent to jail for murder!
Cone back Russia, all is forgiven!
Such a thing has never happened elsewhere.

stevejazzx

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ah Bojack Horseman
I remember you from the Kiev debate where you posted countless anti Russian stuff without hanging around to back it up.
You once posted that Kremlin accidentally (sounds about right, stupid Russians) released the real Crimean referendum results?
I remember that. You swallow anti Russian propaganda whole and then regurgitate it.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The perspective is that Russia is the heartbeat of Europe's far-right.

Ok can you produce some evidence that Russia is the heartbeat of the far right Nazism in Europe?
By heartbeat I presume you mean is has significantly more numbers per capita of Nazis compared to to other countries?

Here the recent articles I can find from the search term
countries with highest rate of neo naziism

Germany and Sweden
http://europe.newsweek.com/neo-nazi-activity-rise-europe-316465
Mnetons

Sweden again
http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/16/how-a-former-neo-nazi-party-became-swedens-third-largest/

Now it appears to me that at the beginning of the Ukrainian conflict it was brought to light that the Ukraine had a dark past from WW2 with supporting the Axis power specifically the Nazis and had more than just some stray remnants left over from that.

It was at this time that a narrative began turning up in Western media focusing on Russia's Nazi issue
(***which by the way I am not denying it (Russia) has, just looking for some real perspective relative to other countries to see if it is worth posting or singling out Russia for such which I am sure it is not, hence my arguments here).

Wiki mentions 50,000 - 70,000 Nazis in Russia but alas no link.
Countless sources however will confirm that Russia endured unparalleled cost (25 million Russian deaths) in ridding Europe from Naziism during WW2.
Russia removed its troops from East Germany in the 1990's and the Soviet Union broke up - and as Chomsky said at the time

chomsky wrote:

the narrative that the Russians were coming was out the window, only a fool would have believed it.

I'm as anti-Nazi as it gets, your welcome to your contrarian opinion though.

My contrarian position?
That you are not as anti-Nazi as is gets? Technically that's what you said... but no... wait.... its a thinly veiled attempt at calling me a Nazi.
Well no wonder you as anti-Nazi as it gets - you're seeing them everywhere; well mostly Russia - but also people who disagree with on boards.
I am ignoring your slur by the way - it reveals only your own irrationality and poor debating techniques.

bjh wrote:

Wow.... Someone was sent to jail for murder!
Cone back Russia, all is forgiven!
Such a thing has never happened elsewhere.

Goryachev didn't murder the guy he gave the order evidently - anyway it was a link about policy which should have been apparent.

article wrote:

Goryachev, a former journalist and pro-Kremlin activist

Also
Russia created a anti Nazi UN resolution.
http://www.rt.com/news/207899-un-anti-nazism-resolution/
Only 3 countries from 118 voted against it.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/26/1347582/-US-votes-against-UN-resolution-condemning-glorification-of-Nazism#

BoJack Horseman

stevejazzx wrote: »

You once posted that Kremlin accidentally released the real Crimean referendum results?

I can't take credit for that lad....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
I can't fathom the child like naievity that would swallow the kremlins version of post-invasion elections.

Ok can you produce some evidence that Russia is the heartbeat of the far right Nazism in Europe?

Eh.... Their government!
Only Hungary comes close to being as far-right governed.

Whether its the paranoid ultra-nationalism, undermining of free media & expression, homophobia, xenophobia, hither youth style organisations et al.

I mean.... If you aren't a fan, why fund them far-right parties?

Your boy's got them all by the balls, after all, he's paying for them.
And they will goose-step to his tune.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu

stevejazzx

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I can't take credit for that lad....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
I can't fathom the child like naievity that would swallow the kremlins version of post-invasion elections.

Naievity?
That's a word you've got to spell correctly when using otherwise, well, I'll let you put it together.
The forbes article was fully and completely debunked where I highlighted it in the Kiev thread you and ignored and are now re-posting it.
Astonishing display at head in the sand denialism.
Child like indeed.
Paul Roderick Gregory is an anti Russian bot - look at his articles there is nothing neutral about them - all explicitly anti Russian.

Heres the original breakdown of that forbes article you posted

Референдум
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;

Translation: Based on the opinion of practically all interviewed (polled) experts and citizens - the great majority of Sevastopol (main city in Crimea, my insert) residents voted to join The Russian Federation (turnout 50-80%), in Crimea according various different sources 50 to 60% voted for joining the Federation with turnout of 30 to 50%.


Explanation

So, it's a poll or multiple poll analysis, no mention what kind of polls, who carried them out, how many citizens and what kind of experts were interviewed. In other words some plain BS and Forbes should have known better if that's their source. Though this is the Advisory Board of the Russian President they deal with analysis of existing data and they also did a rather shoddy job on the matter.

Conducted after the referendum. The reason the site posted this, and says this is a problem is because they believe that most of the voters came from the Sevastopol region. And from the opinions they gathered the investigators think that Russia should confirm the people's opinion on whether they want to be in the Russian Federation or if they want something else.
I made the same comment on the other post from the Forbes link, which apparently made up it's own numbers (as they don't relate to anything) and idea of the what the Russian website was trying to communicate.

Further
The President Council of Human Rights is an organization where all the opposition opinions are listened.
The article is called (urgent) Problems of Citizens of Crimea. The part about % states the following:
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;
Based on opinion of the majority of interviewed specialists and citizens:
The majority of citizens of Sevastopol voted on referendum to join Russia (50-80% attending), in Crimea by different estimates favoured joining Russia 50-60% of voters with overall attendance of 30-50
Clearly no sources or methodology stated.
The author is member of Memorial organization. Which is officially a foreign agent funded by USA government and USA NGOs.
Apparently only 2 person from Memorial went to Crimea for 3 days. In those three days they conducted meetings with authorities, priests, journalists, civil rights activists, lawyers and citizens to inquire about the most urgent problems and necessities of the people. Conclusion: with time so limited and so many purposes, activities and meetings it was clearly impossible to conduct any type of detailed investigation on the matter. The numbers were taken from some source which is not listed in the article.

BoJack Horseman wrote:

Eh.... Their government!
Only Hungary comes close to being as far-right governed.



I mean.... If you aren't a fan, why fund them far right parties?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu

So your evidence of Russia being the heart of neo Nazism is Czech Russian bank loan to a french nationalist party.
I mean its just really stretching.