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Goodbye Aer Lingus

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  • Options
    #302
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    Of course every statment and document should not be instantly available, but there should be accountability, minutes of meeting? God no

    There is accountability, it's called a general election. If FG do a bad job or fcuk something up badly e.g. the sale of a minority stake in a small regional airline the people will be so pi$$ed off they won't vote them back in. Instead we'll get a different party like FF who have solid experience in selling off a majority stake in a small regional airline ;)


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    #303
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Massimo Cassagrande wrote: »
    My abiding memory of Cunnu Lingus is getting shafted up the chuff by them on flights to the UK back in the eighties. I hope they die roaring. Still can't get past the hate tbh..

    So why didn't you fly with somebody else, then?

    It's not like there weren't alternatives.

    It's just that few of them were any better.

    It's advances in technology, as much as deregulation, which have brought more planes to more places and brought costs down.


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    #304
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    Of course every statment and document should not be instantly available, but there should be accountability, minutes of meeting? God no

    Accountability to who, you? Should the cabinet have run this by you before making any decisions/recommendations?

    If you don't know what has/hasn't been provided and you certainly have no idea what will be provided you're not really in a position to start waving the 'no accountability' flag.


  • Options
    #305
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Graham wrote: »
    Accountability to who, you? Should the cabinet have run this by you before making any decisions/recommendations?

    If you don't know what has/hasn't been provided and you certainly have no idea what will be provided you're not really in a position to start waving the 'no accountability' flag.

    You two have totally won me over, best thing is collect the 300 million.

    What can we sell off next, I'm for the bridges in Dublin, I never use them.


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    #306
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    You two have totally won me over, best thing is collect the 300 million.

    What can we sell off next, I'm for the bridges in Dublin, I never use them.

    Glad you've come to your senses.

    Bridges aren't such a hot topic yet, there's little Union interest in them and they take too long to build to be of much use as political footballs.


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    #307
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    You two have totally won me over, best thing is collect the 300 million.

    What can we sell off next, I'm for the bridges in Dublin, I never use them.

    I know you are being sarcastic but there is a serious point here which is the separation of nationally important infrastructure from operating companies.

    It's strategically important for Ireland to have easy access to international flights hence there is an argument for the Govt to either run or (preferably IMHO) contract out the running of infrastructure assets such as airports and ports (as Irish Rail are just about to do with Rosslare Port http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/operations-at-investmenthungry-rosslare-port-to-be-privatised-31256510.html) but there is little or no argument for any Govt to run the operating companies who use the aforementioned infrastructure. To ensure the Govts strategic objective (lot's of connectivity to meet demand) is met all they have to do is provide the right regulatory and supervisory environment to attract private operating companies.

    Sell the operating companies, encourage competition and multiple operators to enter the market and retain ownership of but contract out management of the infrastructure.

    Sorted.


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    #308
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Sell the operating companies and retain ownership of but contract out management of the infrastructure. Sorted.

    +1


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    #309
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    ~€400M from the sale which will be put into a "Communications Investment Fund" to be spent on Broadband programs etc. - Very good

    yeah. because its going to be spent on that. FG would never lie to us now would they?
    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    7 year protection of the Heathrow slots - Bit silly, but keeps the union muppets onside

    what "union muppets" people who look after their members are not muppets, only anti-workers rights types would think so

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #310
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    Graham wrote: »
    +1

    I'll see you in Buswells later with the rest of the back room lads to plot our next scheme ;)


  • Options
    #311
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Calina wrote: »
    The most effective way for the government to protect the Heathrow slots is not by guarantees or rules or legal agreements.

    It is by ensuring the economy is healthy and growing.
    no, guarantees rules and legal agreements is the best way as they are protected no matter what for 7 years

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #312
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    I'll see you in Buswells later with the rest of the back room lads to plot our next scheme ;)

    Maybe the Galway Hooker or Oslo Bar would be more appropriate :)


  • Options
    #313
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    In general I think that this is a good idea, at this time.





    Asking why the State ever owned an airline is like asking why the state owned the electricity companies, or telephone lines, or railways. The private capital wasn't there at the time.
    and for the railways, it never will. in saying that the state should own the electricity and telephone lines to ensure no private monopolies

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #314
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Didn't the Govt hire IBI Corporate Finance and Credit Suisse to assess the offer and they issued their report confirming the proposed deal = good value for shareholders? Maybe the report hasn't been made public yet (why should it?) but don't forget the Govt isn't the largest shareholder. If M O'Leary goes for the deal and other shareholders go for the deal isn't that validation that the amount offered is attractive Vs the alternative of holding and investing in what would continue to be a small regional unionised airline dwarfed by it's largest competitor Ryanair who have announced plans to compete on the transatlantic routes and will result in downward pressure on prices and margins for Aer Lingus going forward.
    the report should published because the people were shareholders in the company so were entitled to know whats in the report

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #315
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    end of the road wrote: »
    and for the railways, it never will. in saying that the state should own the electricity and telephone lines to ensure no private monopolies

    ah the good old days again when TE and ESB were the models of cost effective efficient service provision. **shudders**

    Anyway, slightly off topic I guess.


  • Options
    #316
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    end of the road wrote: »
    what "union muppets" people who look after their members are not muppets, only anti-workers rights types would think so

    What does it feel like back in the 70's?? :P

    Only joking. Ridiculous as I think your opinions are you are entitled to them. Without diversity of opinion the world would be a poorer place.


  • Options
    #317
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    end of the road wrote: »
    the report should published because the people were shareholders in the company so were entitled to know whats in the report

    Submit your FOI request.


  • Options
    #318
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    Graham wrote: »
    Maybe the Galway Hooker or Oslo Bar would be more appropriate :)

    And you're a crafty as well? Just as well the same sex marriage passed last week. Now we can really get it on ;)


  • Options
    #319
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    end of the road wrote: »
    and for the railways, it never will.

    Never say never - http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33599744/ns/business-us_business/t/buffett-buying-burlington-northern-railroad/


  • Options
    #320
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    end of the road wrote: »
    when those elected representitives have been proven not to be trustworthy, railroad things through against the public will (IW AND MORE) ITS PROOF WERE ENTITLED TO HAVE EVERY REPORT AND EVERY POSSIBLE THING PUBLISHED AS PROOF AND FOR THOSE REPRESENTITIVES TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEMSELVES LIVE TO THE NATION WHATEVER THE COST

    If only there were some democratic way of replacing those representatives, oh hang on....


  • Options
    #321
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    end of the road wrote: »
    the report should published because the people were shareholders in the company so were entitled to know whats in the report

    Wrong. It is the Govt who are they shareholders and they have asked for and received all the information they need to make this decision on our behalf.

    Where would you draw the line at what "we" are entitled to know? Perhaps we should all have access to all public sector employees HR files and performance reviews? We are paying them each and every public servant so shouldn't "we" have access to the payroll data so we know how much "we're" paying each and every one of them?

    I bet you don't fancy that idea do you?


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    #322
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    I know you are being sarcastic but there is a serious point here which is the separation of nationally important infrastructure from operating companies.

    It's strategically important for Ireland to have easy access to international flights hence there is an argument for the Govt to either run or (preferably IMHO) contract out the running of infrastructure assets such as airports and ports (as Irish Rail are just about to do with Rosslare Port http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/operations-at-investmenthungry-rosslare-port-to-be-privatised-31256510.html) but there is little or no argument for any Govt to run the operating companies who use the aforementioned infrastructure. To ensure the Govts strategic objective (lot's of connectivity to meet demand) is met all they have to do is provide the right regulatory and supervisory environment to attract private operating companies.

    Sell the operating companies, encourage competition and multiple operators to enter the market and retain ownership of but contract out management of the infrastructure.

    Sorted.

    what competition. sometimes multiple operators aren't viable. if not, then the state must run that 1 company

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #323
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Wrong. It is the Govt who are they shareholders and they have asked for and received all the information they need to make this decision on our behalf.

    Where would you draw the line at what "we" are entitled to know? Perhaps we should all have access to all public sector employees HR files and performance reviews? We are paying them each and every public servant so shouldn't "we" have access to the payroll data so we know how much "we're" paying each and every one of them?

    I bet you don't fancy that idea do you?
    we are the shareholders as its our money going into it. the government doing something on our behalf means nothing as they cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of the people. there not doing this in my name

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #324
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    end of the road wrote: »
    what competition. sometimes multiple operators aren't viable. if not, then the state must run that 1 company

    Can you support that assertion with any evidence or real world examples?

    Competition lowers cost and promotes innovation. Monopolies, particularly state monopolies are the polar opposite.


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    #325
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    end of the road wrote: »
    there not doing this in my name

    Correct, they're doing it as the elected Irish Government.


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    #326
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    What does it feel like back in the 70's?? :P

    Only joking. Ridiculous as I think your opinions are you are entitled to them. Without diversity of opinion the world would be a poorer place.
    unions are as relevant today as they were in the 90s 80s 70s and before. very relevant. they are needed, necessary, and do good work for their members

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #327
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    end of the road wrote: »
    we are the shareholders as its our money going into it. the government doing something on our behalf means nothing as they cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of the people. there not doing this in my name

    I am not sure you know how democracy works.

    The government are elected to work on our behalf. They make decisions on our behalf.

    Not every single person has to agree with every single decision.

    If every taxpayer had to be consulted and informed of every decision the government makes then nothing would ever get done.


  • Options
    #328
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Never say never - http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33599744/ns/business-us_business/t/buffett-buying-burlington-northern-railroad/
    that link means nothing. ireland is a small island, with a small rail network which isn't proffitable but socially necessary. safe to say there is no private capital coming

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #329
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    end of the road wrote: »
    that link means nothing. ireland is a small island, with a small rail network which isn't proffitable but socially necessary. safe to say there is no private capital coming

    Never say never.


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    #330
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,655 ✭✭✭54and56


    end of the road wrote: »
    we are the shareholders as its our money going into it. the government doing something on our behalf means nothing as they cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of the people. there not doing this in my name

    Do you seriously believe anything you write? Our Govt were elected by the "we" you keep referring to. By electing them we placed our trust in them.

    Time (and in particular the next election) will tell if they have or haven't done a good job overall. Until then they are our elected representatives and that doesn't change just because a few tin foil hat wearing left wing loopers disagree with them*




    * Not referring to you end of the road.


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    #331
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Competition lowers cost and promotes innovation.

    not in a lot of cases. britain for example. so called "competition" in the energy sector has brought cosy cartels. also, competition doesn't guarantee innovation. for example, the british bus market. where regulation does exist, councils and transport regulators have to do it all bar the running because the private companies cannot be trusted if left to their own devices. other then that, the companies are free to do as they please meaning little services. as much as our state operators have problems i'd rather have them then not.
    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Monopolies, particularly private monopolies are the polar opposite.

    fixed. state monopolies are better then private monopolies

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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