Why do you want/ not want children?

The Masculinist · 24-05-2015 12:19PM

Rips wrote: »

No one should have children for someone else.

TM, what you have stated is the exact same myth that is trotted out to childfree by choice women... '' its different when its your own''

There is probably as much chance that the OP could feel the complete opposite and come to regret and resent her decision. And that case has the much worse outcome unfortunately, as now there is a child involved.

Shenshen, I would just advise you to consider your choices, there are lots of perspectives available from people who are/have been in your situation. For and against. Leaving it up to nature is probably the worst thing you could do.

As must children in their 20s + in Ireland were probably accidents (lack of contraception etc.), if everyone thought the way you do there is a good chance you or I would not have been born. To each their own though.

CathyMoran · 24-05-2015 12:30PM

My long term boyfriend, now husband of several years were always on the same page as regards to children, I wanted them so much that I did not even date men who did not want children. Life is strange though and I faced the very real chance of not being able to have children when a cancer diagnosis came along and I gave my then partner the chance to leave me. He did not and we had two children after numerous horrible miscarriages. The point is that we both wanted them. I was not wanted by my mother but was by my father and it was not an easy life for me until I met my husband.

eviltwin · 24-05-2015 12:30PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

As must children in their 20s + in Ireland were probably accidents (lack of contraception etc.), if everyone thought the way you do there is a good chance you or I would not have been born. To each their own though.

Big difference between an accident and a mistake.

Rips · 24-05-2015 12:30PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

As must children in their 20s + in Ireland were probably accidents (lack of contraception etc.), if everyone thought the way you do there is a good chance you or I would not have been born. To each their own though.

And your point is?
I value my life, but if I wasn't here to value it, well ... would be no loss on me.

I was an accident, the one that catalysed my parents to marry. Its not my guilt or choice to bear but I'm very sorry for it, and all the hurt it subsequently caused. The death, and the pain and suffering of 6 people.

Its not the reason I'm childfree, its just something I've come to consider.
The world needs good parents, not baby factories.

If you want to go back in history, then people 'like me' still bore children by accident, they were still born, just in a ditch, or in an institution. Birth is not life.

beks101 · 24-05-2015 12:56PM

Jazmine Miniature Hatchet wrote: »

I'm in the "I like kids, but I couldn't eat a whole one" camp. I know I wouldn't be good at it, I don't want the responsibility, and I've never felt the drive.

I love spending time with kids, and they do like me. Last time I was minding my friend's kid (6) we made a deal that I wouldn't tell his mam he was swearing if he didn't tell her I let him eat sugar. Not as in "foods containing a lot of sugar", a literal handful of sugar. I would not be a good mother.

I hear ya. I'm 30 and I have yet to experience that broody pining or twitching ovaries that other women seem to get. I don't and haven't had a lot of exposure to babies or children in my life - the odd mate or first cousin has popped one out here and there, but nothing that has left me in a kid's company for longer than enough time to coo and awww and make all the appropriate baby noises.

I don't know if I want a baby. Which is a scary realization to have at my age, as the "you're not getting any younger" brigade will affirm. It's also scary because I was raised in a very traditional household where the marriage-and-babies was sold as a package deal for my future.

I was also raised by an astutely high-achieving successful career woman who excelled herself professionally and still managed to win Mammy of the Year for all three of her kids. She'd die for any one of us, but she also kicked ass in the office for as long as I can remember. I followed in her footsteps academically but perhaps naively thought I too could have it all.

I live in London now, work 60 hours a week, and with that and the general busy-ness of life, barely have enough time to spend with my OH let alone raise a child, or even afford to raise a child for that matter. It's a tough truth to face, the one that tells me I perhaps can't be superwoman too.

I've snapped up all of the opportunities afforded to my generation - third level education - check - travel anywhere and everywhere - check - emigrate - check - climb the career ladder - check - date lots of different kinds of men - check - and it's landed me to this wonderful but mindfcuking place where all these tough life decisions need to be sieved through on a timeline that's far too cosy for my liking.

I'd be a great mum, that much I know. I have the best mother in the world. I wouldn't know any way but to make a child Number One, let their needs usurp and perhaps drive my own. Let their happiness determine my own. But it's hard to see exactly when or where a child would fit into the life I've created for myself.

Jack B. Badd · 24-05-2015 01:18PM

Rips wrote: »

No one should have children for someone else.

TM, what you have stated is the exact same myth that is trotted out to childfree by choice women... '' its different when its your own''

I had a conversation a few years ago with a woman I worked with & the topic of wanting/not wanting children came up. We were at a work party & had both had a couple of drinks & I'm vocally childfree so I guess she figured I'd be a sympathetic audience. She told me that she didn't want children but her husband did so she agreed to try - if it happened naturally so be it & fingers crossed it wouldn't but hopefully the attempt would satisfy her husband. She ended up pregnant at the first attempt. And afterwards of course there was the "ah, you can't just have the one" pressure. She hated the entire pregnancy/birth/maternity experience both times. She finished off with the obligatory "of course I love my kids now that I have them" & a sigh & "but if I had the decision again...".
It took me a while to figure out how I felt about that conversation but in hindsight I think it was one of the most saddening I've ever had.

meeeeh · 24-05-2015 01:38PM

IWell it was a stupid decision to make but strong people make the best of it and deal with it. I have very little sympathy for what if's in any situation. Weather they are saying what if I had kids or what if I hadn't... What if I got a job or got married or didn't get married... Once your life takes you into certain direction you either embrace it, try to make changes that suit you or you whinge. I might be less compassionate but sadness is not what I would feel in this situation.

I don't think anybody should have kids because their partner wants them. But equally I don't think that kids destroy or improve our lives, we do.

Malari · 24-05-2015 02:20PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

As must children in their 20s + in Ireland were probably accidents (lack of contraception etc.), if everyone thought the way you do there is a good chance you or I would not have been born. To each their own though.

I don't know where you get that idea! Most pregnancies in the mid-80s to mid-90s were accidents? This is after contraception was quite readily available. Not using contraception and getting pregnant is not necessarily an accident you know! Usually it's the desired outcome.

Shenshen · 25-05-2015 08:09AM

The Masculinist wrote: »

Very good of you to consider your husband's feelings and wants in this. Ultimately you have to carry the child for 9 months so fair play. The one thing I would say is I have seen women change their view after they actually have the child. They tend to be overjoyed etc. So the view on minimal time off work etc. could change.

It could, I'm well aware that pregnancy has a tendency to wreak utter havoc with your hormonal balance.

But from where I am now, that's what I would do.

Shenshen · 25-05-2015 08:14AM

Rips wrote: »

Shenshen, I would just advise you to consider your choices, there are lots of perspectives available from people who are/have been in your situation. For and against. Leaving it up to nature is probably the worst thing you could do.

Why would it be?
I'm not dead set against having a child, but I'm not desperate to have one either. Why would that be objectionable?

I realise I might come to regret it if I have a child, but I might also end up regretting not having had one when I could. I can't predict the future, and neither can you.

And while I'm not overly keen on toddlers, I've always enjoyed spending time with teenagers. I've done a lot of work in youth groups when I was younger, and really loved that.
The husband on the other hand loves them when they're little.

So from that perspective, we'd compliment each other perfectly as potential parents.

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 10:36AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would it be?
I'm not dead set against having a child, but I'm not desperate to have one either. Why would that be objectionable?

I realise I might come to regret it if I have a child, but I might also end up regretting not having had one when I could. I can't predict the future, and neither can you.

And while I'm not overly keen on toddlers, I've always enjoyed spending time with teenagers. I've done a lot of work in youth groups when I was younger, and really loved that.
The husband on the other hand loves them when they're little.

So from that perspective, we'd compliment each other perfectly as potential parents.

That's a pretty big risk to take don't you think and not fair on any of you

Malari · 25-05-2015 12:51PM

eviltwin wrote: »

That's a pretty big risk to take don't you think and not fair on any of you

Well, it's not like she's going to abandon the kid! Sounds like she knows what she's doing.

Addle · 25-05-2015 12:57PM

Malari wrote: »

Well, it's not like she's going to abandon the kid! Sounds like she knows what she's doing.

How many children out there have parents that resent them and are very unhappy because of their feelings?

Malari · 25-05-2015 12:58PM

Addle wrote: »

How many children out there have parents that resent them and are very unhappy because of their feelings?

Is that meant to be rhetorical?

Das Kitty · 25-05-2015 12:59PM

eviltwin wrote: »

That's a pretty big risk to take don't you think and not fair on any of you

It's a risk we all take, whether we foresee it or not. I think it's better to acknowledge it as a possibility tbh.

Addle · 25-05-2015 01:09PM

Malari wrote: »

Is that meant to be rhetorical?

All you have to is read the many problems in the personal issues forum to realise how many people have families that really shouldn't.

Malari · 25-05-2015 01:13PM

Addle wrote: »

All you have to is read the many problems in the personal issues forum to realise how many people have families that really shouldn't.

Really? I don't think I remember seeing much along those lines. Unless it's a crisis pregnancy, which is entirely different.

But the point remains, if you are a bit ambivalent how can you possibly know beforehan?. Sounds to me like Shenshen is going in with her eyes wide open.

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 01:14PM

Das Kitty wrote: »

It's a risk we all take, whether we foresee it or not. I think it's better to acknowledge it as a possibility tbh.

I accept that, none of us know how we'll feel until we're there but most parents would I hope want their children. I can't imagine going through all that and committing yourself to this person for life if you aren't totally sure. I'm speaking as someone who has grown up with a woman who didn't want kids and it made for a hard childhood. I don't think she set out to make it an unhappy home but her resentment poisoned everything. We're talking about people here and their emotional wellbeing, its not right to bring someone into the world if you have doubts about wanting them.

meeeeh · 25-05-2015 01:34PM

Das Kitty wrote: »

It's a risk we all take, whether we foresee it or not. I think it's better to acknowledge it as a possibility tbh.

I actually agree with that. And I think very often those that want kids badly can make it just as hard for children as those who are more ambivalent about it.

Das Kitty · 25-05-2015 02:16PM

I was ambivalent about having my kids. I liked the idea of having a family, but I had no idea how that would translate into real world terms. My husband very much wanted them, so it really saved me a lot of thought about whether I would or not.

I grew up in a family with a father who wanted a scatter of kids, but he mentally and physically abused us. We still bear very deep scars.

I didn't know what sort of mother I would be, but I was certain that I would be a better parent than he was. I was told I would love my baby instantly upon seeing him. That didn't happen. It was more of a slow falling in love for me. I think I'm a pretty good parent, and that my kids feel loved.

Personally, I don't think "not being sure" is a warning sign (for obvious reasons). How can any of us be sure how we will feel about something we've never experienced before?

I don't think there is a sure. Or a ready. I think there's the edge of the cliff and you choose to hop off it or you don't. You hope for the best and most of the time is goes that way.

Rips · 25-05-2015 02:16PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would it be?
I'm not dead set against having a child, but I'm not desperate to have one either. Why would that be objectionable?

Its this ^
Leaving it up to nature 'if it happens, it happens' is just giving up your choices and control. If you haven't definitely made up your mind, and you get pregnant, you may feel obligated to carry it then regardless of your feelings, which isn't necessarily a good way to start.
I guess its about approaching this responsibly with a view to your own health and future.

You say you are not keen on babies, what about the whole pregnancy process? What happens if you get crippling PND and never really wade out of it? By the time the child is old enough for you to enjoy, you are a shadow of your former self?

I've seen this happen to a friend who was not entirely committed to raising a child, but was sure she would grow to love it, 'after the hard part' was over. This, she openly admitted to and envisioned before the child was born. PND put an end to that.

I guess I just feel personally, that parents should make reasoned and rational choices (in the interests of themselves and ultimately the welfare of the child) before committing to this. Not everything has to be perfect, but well, set yourself up to win! This is not to say, that accidents can't work out, they do...

Eviltwin hit the nail on the head really.

25-05-2015 04:21PM

I love kids and hope I have a family of my own. I've always wanted them, it's an advantage to be so sure when I read of the sort of ambivalence some can have here, that would be hard to work out. If I don't get the chance to have kids of my own, I'm sure I'll survive that too, but I'd rather not have to.

I completely understand and respect those who choose differently, and again I think being sure is a real advantage in life. The stress is in indecision or vacillation.

I do think people who want kids can be a bit talked down to, with suggestions (not talking about this thread) that they're only doing it because it's expected or because they want someone to look after them in old age. I don't like terminology like 'popping out' or 'firing out' kids because I think its a bit patronising or demeaning when we're talking about a major and important life event to that person.

Likewise, choosing no kids shouldn't be moralised about or patronised in any way. I don't like people who choose to be childfree being described as selfish. It's another life choice, like any other, and isn't intrinsically selfish or unselfish. It just is, and no explanation should be required or offered, in an ideal world.

Respect all sides I say.

Shenshen · 25-05-2015 06:09PM

eviltwin wrote: »

That's a pretty big risk to take don't you think and not fair on any of you

Isn't that the risk that absolutely EVERY SINGLE parent is taking?

Shenshen · 25-05-2015 06:11PM

Addle wrote: »

How many children out there have parents that resent them and are very unhappy because of their feelings?

Incidentally, I do.

But my mother absolutely wanted to have children, she wouldn't have been able to imagine life without.
Yet when she had them, she regretted having them.

There's no guarantees either way. Ever.

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 06:12PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Isn't that the risk that absolutely EVERY SINGLE parent is taking?

No! When I was pregnant I had no idea how things would pan out but at least I knew I wanted those children. I was doing it for me, I wasn't having them to keep someone else happy.

Shenshen · 25-05-2015 06:17PM

Rips wrote: »

Its this ^
Leaving it up to nature 'if it happens, it happens' is just giving up your choices and control. If you haven't definitely made up your mind, and you get pregnant, you may feel obligated to carry it then regardless of your feelings, which isn't necessarily a good way to start.
I guess its about approaching this responsibly with a view to your own health and future.

You say you are not keen on babies, what about the whole pregnancy process? What happens if you get crippling PND and never really wade out of it? By the time the child is old enough for you to enjoy, you are a shadow of your former self?

I've seen this happen to a friend who was not entirely committed to raising a child, but was sure she would grow to love it, 'after the hard part' was over. This, she openly admitted to and envisioned before the child was born. PND put an end to that.

I guess I just feel personally, that parents should make reasoned and rational choices (in the interests of themselves and ultimately the welfare of the child) before committing to this. Not everything has to be perfect, but well, set yourself up to win! This is not to say, that accidents can't work out, they do...

Eviltwin hit the nail on the head really.

Interesting - do you really think that really wanting a child is a safeguard against PND?

While we're on anecdotes, my mother was desperate to have children. When she was small, that was all she ever wanted out of life. Absolutely convinced that they would fulfil her and that her life would be incomplete without them.

Then she had us, and found out that it really wasn't what she wanted at all. Her desperate desire turned into deep desperation. It took her decades to work herself out of it, to turn her life around and to figure out what she actually really wanted instead.

Really wanting children is not a guarantee that once you have them, you actually still want them. I prefer a good, healthy pragmatism when approaching such a life-changing decision to over-emotionality.

Shenshen · 25-05-2015 06:20PM

eviltwin wrote: »

No! When I was pregnant I had no idea how things would pan out but at least I knew I wanted those children. I was doing it for me, I wasn't having them to keep someone else happy.

Ok, think you've got a very wrong idea here.

My husband's happiness does not depend on me having children or not. He would like to have a family, but won't be distraught if it doesn't happen.
And I feel the same way.

I don't feel under any obligation to have or not to have children.

ancapailldorcha · 27-05-2015 08:22PM

Assuming that Jack B. Badd’s a bloke then that means that it’s ok for men to post here…

So kids? I don’t know. I haven’t a clue.

I had a fairly rough childhood and have only begun to grow any sort of confidence in the last few years. I missed out on a lot of the key experiences young people today seem to have, ie travelling, emigrating, dating, etc…. I constantly feel like I’m making up for lost time in relation to these things (moving to the UK counts as emigrating, right?) and so am trying to cover as much lost ground as I can travel wise at least. I need my own space though and not sure parenthood would be too compatible with that.

I’m 27 though being male exemplifies me from the sort of pressure a single woman my age might feel so it’s not an immediate concern though it might be tough attracting a partner and forging any sort of meaningful relationship at 40.

I think I’d make a decent parent though. I have an excellent blueprint detailing what not to do. It’s a 2 person decision though so there’s not much sense in worrying about it until that perquisite is met.

mocha please! · 27-05-2015 08:34PM

Das Kitty wrote: »

I was ambivalent about having my kids. I liked the idea of having a family, but I had no idea how that would translate into real world terms. My husband very much wanted them, so it really saved me a lot of thought about whether I would or not.

I grew up in a family with a father who wanted a scatter of kids, but he mentally and physically abused us. We still bear very deep scars.

I didn't know what sort of mother I would be, but I was certain that I would be a better parent than he was. I was told I would love my baby instantly upon seeing him. That didn't happen. It was more of a slow falling in love for me. I think I'm a pretty good parent, and that my kids feel loved.

Personally, I don't think "not being sure" is a warning sign (for obvious reasons). How can any of us be sure how we will feel about something we've never experienced before?

I don't think there is a sure. Or a ready. I think there's the edge of the cliff and you choose to hop off it or you don't. You hope for the best and most of the time is goes that way.

I get this.

Our baby was unplanned, but we hadn't been very careful and were both aware of the potential consequences. So when we found out I was pregnant - great, grand, we'll manage.

Then followed nine months of happiness, hopefulness, ideas and imagination for how great everything would be.

Then a short sharp traumatic labour. Unwanted interventions. A baby who didn't cry and needed to be put in an incubator. Out of the incubator, wouldn't/couldn't breastfeed. Then rushed to ICU a day after being born. And a million other complications.

And suddenly it wasn't so hopeful or easy.

Maternity leave was six months of hell.

18 months after his birth, I'm on the "urgent" list for a bed in a psychiatric unit, it's likely I'll be admitted in the next 48 hours. And the experts reckon it's all down to issues surrounding the birth and aftermath.

And still I'd do it all again for him. He's a real person - an absolute character, who brings smiles to the faces of everyone around him. I love him to bits, I really do.

I never had mental health issues before. It's hell. Pure hell. But it's worth it for my boy. And I'll get through this.

sadie06 · 28-05-2015 07:46PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Interesting - do you really think that really wanting a child is a safeguard against PND?

.

A very valid point. It can actually be quite the opposite. Those that have tried the hardest and waited the longest to have children are even more susceptible to PND. Many studies and anecdotal evidence points to an increased risk for those that have undergone fertility treatment.

This question is interesting when posed about the number of children a woman chooses to have also. For instance, I always thought I wanted three children. That was myself and my husband's life-plan. The instinct to have another baby just never kicked in again after my second, and I strongly feel that I would have made a very stressed and irritable mother of three, where as I make a very decent mother of two.

I would view a pregnancy now as a crisis pregnancy, much as a woman who is sure she does not want any children would view a pregnancy.

Why do you want/ not want children?

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