The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

aloyisious · 13-05-2015 11:45PM

Greaney wrote: »

I have to say, I believe that because we're voting to change our constitution there'll be a lot of litigation to follow. Is it cynical of me that I'm not one bit surprised that many 'Lawyers' are 'for Yes'.

I'm not at all surprised that you are cynical about lawyers motives. Re litigation, there will be a lot of work for them if the amendment is passed. I'm using the White Side of Page 05 of the referendum Commission independent guide on both referendums to form that opinion on work, but if the amendment is NOT passed, the reverse is possible.

Again about lawyers motives, amongst the print I read today is one which said that if the referendum is passed, the courts will NOT be able to make further ruling - on the lines of "a man and a woman" - about what sex a couple have to be to marry. They will be tied down solely to whom may marry whom, in line with existing laws about close relatives etc.

Peregrinus · 14-05-2015 05:55AM

Can't but note that none of the (first page of) your search results have anything to to with litigation about marriage. Which, given that your search chosen terms don't mention marriage, is not all that surprising.

We've already enacted laws to decriminalise homosexuality. We've already enacted laws to prohibit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, both in employment and in the wider sphere. If you're looking for material for a "huge amount of litigation", it's already there.

I don't see that the equal marriage amendment, if passed, opens up scope for a huge amount more of litigation. If anything, I would have thought the reverse is true. If the amendment fails to pass, there's a strong incentive for people to bring a case (or a series of cases) to test the assumption that same-sex marriage is forbidden by the current text of the Constitution, which doesn't deal explicitly with the question. At least part of the reason why the Government chose to go down the amendment route was to avoid the need for/risk of litigation to establish what is, and is not, permissible under the current text in terms of recosnising gay marriage.

Greaney · 14-05-2015 12:11PM

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm not at all surprised that you are cynical about lawyers motives. Re litigation, there will be a lot of work for them if the amendment is passed. I'm using the White Side of Page 05 of the referendum Commission independent guide on both referendums to form that opinion on work, but if the amendment is NOT passed, the reverse is possible.

Again about lawyers motives, amongst the print I read today is one which said that if the referendum is passed, the courts will NOT be able to make further ruling - on the lines of "a man and a woman" - about what sex a couple have to be to marry. They will be tied down solely to whom may marry whom, in line with existing laws about close relatives etc.

I agree. I'm not usually cynical but I've been watching what has been happening States Side and the amount of court cases regarding schools, sex-ed, Parents and LGBT groups is growing. That doesn't bode well. We may see some unforeseen series of events.

It's a pity the debate has just centered around Assisted Reproduction.

SireOfSeth · 14-05-2015 12:29PM

Greaney wrote: »

I agree. I'm not usually cynical but I've been watching what has been happening States Side and the amount of court cases regarding schools, sex-ed, Parents and LGBT groups is growing. That doesn't bode well. We may see some unforeseen series of events.

It's a pity the debate has just centered around Assisted Reproduction.

In what way does it not bode well?

Greaney · 14-05-2015 01:27PM

SireOfSeth wrote: »

In what way does it not bode well?

Well, the area where folk are clashing seems to be regarding curriculum. Parents, LGBT groups and schools seem to be caught up in a lot of litigation. In fairness there's loads of links about the place, but here are just a few but I'm sure you can find more.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5366521
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-parents-opposed-to-sex-ed-changes-threaten-to-pull-kids-from-school-1.3059455
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/nutty-sex-ed-courses-must-make-positive-portrayal-of-gay-sex-compulsory-nat
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3026812/Faith-school-fears-union-says-teachers-promote-gay-lifestyle-Leaders-call-positive-portrayal-sex-relationships-compulsory.html

In Ireland, Catholic schools will have to teach new sex-ed, etc. We may find the phrase 'This has nothing to do with children' will come back and bite us.

And then maybe it mightn't.

PopePalpatine · 14-05-2015 01:35PM

LifeSiteNews articles about LGBT people (or pretty much anyone more liberal than General Franco) are about as reasonable as RT articles about Ukraine.

SireOfSeth · 14-05-2015 03:33PM

Greaney wrote: »

Well, the area where folk are clashing seems to be regarding curriculum. Parents, LGBT groups and schools seem to be caught up in a lot of litigation. In fairness there's loads of links about the place, but here are just a few but I'm sure you can find more.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5366521
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-parents-opposed-to-sex-ed-changes-threaten-to-pull-kids-from-school-1.3059455
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/nutty-sex-ed-courses-must-make-positive-portrayal-of-gay-sex-compulsory-nat
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3026812/Faith-school-fears-union-says-teachers-promote-gay-lifestyle-Leaders-call-positive-portrayal-sex-relationships-compulsory.html

In Ireland, Catholic schools will have to teach new sex-ed, etc. We may find the phrase 'This has nothing to do with children' will come back and bite us.

And then maybe it mightn't.

Well, I would hope so (especially if they're funded by the state or get tax breaks). This has nothing to do with the referendum though. My son is in a Catholic primary school and they did sex-ed.

lazygal · 14-05-2015 04:16PM

Greaney wrote: »

Well, the area where folk are clashing seems to be regarding curriculum. Parents, LGBT groups and schools seem to be caught up in a lot of litigation. In fairness there's loads of links about the place, but here are just a few but I'm sure you can find more.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5366521
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-parents-opposed-to-sex-ed-changes-threaten-to-pull-kids-from-school-1.3059455
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/nutty-sex-ed-courses-must-make-positive-portrayal-of-gay-sex-compulsory-nat
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3026812/Faith-school-fears-union-says-teachers-promote-gay-lifestyle-Leaders-call-positive-portrayal-sex-relationships-compulsory.html

In Ireland, Catholic schools will have to teach new sex-ed, etc. We may find the phrase 'This has nothing to do with children' will come back and bite us.

And then maybe it mightn't.

I attended both Catholic primary and secondary schools and there was mention of being gay, contraception, sex outside marriage and loads of other catholic no nos. Sex is a positive thing, once is done by two consenting adults, was the main message I got, and make sure to protect yourself if you're doing it, was the message in secondary school. Why would schools present a negative view of sex between two consenting adults? What is a gay lifestyle anyway?

aloyisious · 14-05-2015 06:14PM

SireOfSeth wrote: »

Well, I would hope so (especially if they're funded by the state or get tax breaks). This has nothing to do with the referendum though. My son is in a Catholic primary school and they did sex-ed.

Don'cha know that some-one on the "no" side has already mentioned the "my child will be taught about gay marriage in sex-ed lessons" if the referendum on marriage equality is given a "Yes" majority.

Aargh, there's another of the debates just started on RTE's Drive-time programme. Gold-standard ratings, people not at that standard of family put into Magdelene homes. Getting out before Tom Finegan starts

Greaney · 17-05-2015 08:02AM

I think this is another article worth reading

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/

B_Wayne · 17-05-2015 11:07AM

Greaney wrote: »

I think this is another article worth reading

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/

The same group that paid for the Regnerus study are frankly not a source for even the most basic information.

PopePalpatine · 17-05-2015 02:34PM

Greaney wrote: »

I think this is another article worth reading

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/

How much did that neo-falangist Tom Monaghan pour into that site?

Black Menorca · 17-05-2015 07:16PM

There is an ongoing crusade to re-engineer society in Ireland. Remove God, ridicule people of Faith and impose an intolerant group think that pours scorn on those who do not play the 'Liberal' game.

lazygal · 17-05-2015 08:03PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

There is an ongoing crusade to re-engineer society in Ireland. Remove Gd, ridicule people of Faith and impose an intolerant group think that pours scorn on those who do not play the 'Liberal' game.

Completely inaccurate. Our constitution contains references to God, parliament starts every sitting day with a Christian prayer, 90%+ of schools are religious and integrate mainly Christian indoctrination and the national broadcaster plays a Catholic call to prayer on radio and television. If anyone is being oppressed, it ain't Christian people.

jobbridge4life · 17-05-2015 08:05PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

There is an ongoing crusade to re-engineer society in Ireland. Remove Gd, ridicule people of Faith and impose an intolerant group think that pours scorn on those who do not play the 'Liberal' game.

Several very devout Catholic people and others of different faiths have embraced same-sex marriage and called for a Yes vote. Including Sr Stan. Faith and same-sex marriage are in no mutually exclusive.

Not a NSA agent · 17-05-2015 08:06PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

There is an ongoing crusade to re-engineer society in Ireland. Remove Gd, ridicule people of Faith and impose an intolerant group think that pours scorn on those who do not play the 'Liberal' game.

Ah yes, engineering society, removing gods they dont like, intolerant group think. How I miss the old days of catholic ireland.

Black Menorca · 17-05-2015 08:21PM

lazygal wrote: »

Completely inaccurate. Our constitution contains references to God, parliament starts every sitting day with a Christian prayer, 90%+ of schools are religious and integrate mainly Christian indoctrination and the national broadcaster plays a Catholic call to prayer on radio and television. If anyone is being oppressed, it ain't Christian people.

What I said was there is an active campaign to make Ireland a Godless society. step by step. Ridicule people of faith, normalise intolerance in the media and gradually turn the country into a Orwellian style secular dictatorship.

But thats not to say they will succeed. A No vote on Friday will be a big setback.

Black Menorca · 17-05-2015 08:21PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Several very devout Catholic people and others of different faiths have embraced same-sex marriage and called for a Yes vote. Including Sr Stan. Faith and same-sex marriage are in no mutually exclusive.

Correct.

jobbridge4life · 17-05-2015 08:25PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Correct.

Which goes to disprove your point in case you hadn't worked it out.

Black Menorca · 17-05-2015 08:27PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Which goes to disprove your point in case you hadn't worked it out.

Of course it doesn't.

There is a cohort among official, liberal Ireland who are dead set of turning Ireland into a Secular utopia.

lazygal · 17-05-2015 08:30PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Of course it doesn't.

There is a cohort among official, liberal Ireland who are dead set of turning Ireland into a Secular utopia.

What about the cohort who all attended private fee paying Catholic schools and did commerce and ended up in the same couple of professions and work hard to ensure religious deference continues in our schools?

steamengine · 17-05-2015 08:30PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Of course it doesn't.

There is a cohort among official, liberal Ireland who are dead set of turning Ireland into a Secular utopia.

The Utopia bit could be problematic :pac:

lazygal · 17-05-2015 08:34PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

What I said was there is an active campaign to make Ireland a Godless society. step by step. Ridicule people of faith, normalise intolerance in the media and gradually turn the country into a Orwellian style secular dictatorship.

But thats not to say they will succeed. A No vote on Friday will be a big setback.

Who's running the campaign? What is an Orwellian secular dictatorship?

Black Menorca · 17-05-2015 08:34PM

lazygal wrote: »

What about the cohort who all attended private fee paying Catholic schools and did commerce and ended up in the same couple of professions and work hard to ensure religious deference continues in our schools?

They're not doing a very good job.

Black Menorca · 17-05-2015 08:36PM

lazygal wrote: »

Who's running the campaign? What is an Orwellian secular dictatorship?

The Labour Party, GLEN (and their endless funding from Chuck Feeney) radical Left, Irish Times among others.

lazygal · 17-05-2015 08:46PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

The Labour Party, GLEN (and their endless funding from Chuck Feeney) radical Left, Irish Times among others.

Ah take off the tinfoil hat. What's wrong with secularism anyway?

Shrap · 17-05-2015 08:47PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

What I said was there is an active campaign to make Ireland a Godless society. step by step. Ridicule people of faith, normalise intolerance in the media and gradually turn the country into a Orwellian style secular dictatorship.

But thats not to say they will succeed. A No vote on Friday will be a big setback.

See, I would say that there is an active campaign to make Ireland a place where God has it's place - in people's private lives and not in the constitution, affecting every Irish citizen regardless of faith. Certainly not to ridicule people of faith, but certainly to ridicule the notion that people of faith get to have power over people without faith in a deity.

The very definition of Orwellian (draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past) appears very much to me what the No campaign is promulgating by their scaremongering sidetracking of the referendum question, but that's ok. We knew to expect it. We shall see what we shall see on Friday.

Ghost Buster · 17-05-2015 08:51PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

The Labour Party, GLEN (and their endless funding from Chuck Feeney) radical Left, Irish Times among others.

Hmmmmm. As a non Labour voter with not a clue what GLEN is and who doesn't read The Times Im forced to conclude that
1- Im not in on the conspiracy
Or
2- Catholics are becoming more and more convinced that their loss of privilege is a big paranoid conspiracy which isn't really there at all.

Bannasidhe · 17-05-2015 08:55PM

Shrap wrote: »

The very definition of Orwellian (draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past)

aka Ye Olde 20th century Ireland.

Shrap · 17-05-2015 08:58PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

aka Ye Olde 20th century Ireland.

100 year's time, let's hope it's not also Ye Olde 21st century Ireland as well.

The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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