Allergic to Work

KomradeBishop · 08-05-2015 11:21AM

GaryTLynch wrote: »

Believe it or not, the idea of a guaranteed income for all is being toyed with at the moment in some countries.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/why-arent-reformicons-pushing-a-guaranteed-basic-income/375600/

Switzerland is having a referendum on it in 2016.

valoren · 08-05-2015 11:22AM

I remember a story from during the boom time in Construction.

One lad, a career dole man, was offered €800 cash in hand to stand on a road with a stop sign and to turn in from Stop to Go every few minutes.

He turned it down saying it was demeaning.

KomradeBishop · 08-05-2015 11:28AM

Turtwig wrote: »

Sure, I'll just go plant another job-tree for jobs to grow on right now.

Public works programs? The idea that there are no jobs worth doing, that government can create temporarily (funding is another matter though), is just a lack of research - western countries in the 1930's engaging in massive public spending boosts, to end the Great Depression through public works, are the archetypal example.

There are all sorts of worthwhile things we could be plowing manpower into, and with climate change being a major problem, just one example of things that could be done is infrastructure for renewables, and an enormous host of things for improving energy efficiency in the economy (e.g. providing both work and subsidies for properly insulating homes, and helping to switch homes to more efficient heat generating methods) - which brings down costs as well, also reducing our energy imports (improving our competitiveness as a country).

Countries all over the world, should really be putting Manhattan-Project levels of effort/work into preparing for climate change, and reducing our impact on the climate - and that's the kind of thing that would generate a lot of work/jobs.

That's only a single example of a line of work that would be worth doing.

Geuze · 08-05-2015 01:14PM

Bongalongherb wrote: »

On that chart, why is Ireland not accounted for in statistics of 2012 blue

CSO a bit slow.

Geuze · 08-05-2015 01:18PM

Stheno wrote: »

I'm not sure that's correct have you a link to back that up?

Yes, the number of jobless households in Ireland is staggering, and way beyond EU averages.

Measured by the VLWI figure

VLWI = very low work intensity

See here:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Material_deprivation_and_low_work_intensity_statistics

Look at figure 6.

Geuze · 08-05-2015 01:21PM

How do I get this picture to appear in the post?

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/6/6a/People_aged_less_than_60_living_in_households_with_very_low_work_intensity%2C_2012%E2%80%9313.png

suicide_circus · 08-05-2015 01:23PM

You cant put up pics in AH

08-05-2015 01:33PM

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, the number of jobless households in Ireland is staggering, and way beyond EU averages.

Measured by the VLWI figure

VLWI = very low work intensity

See here:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Material_deprivation_and_low_work_intensity_statistics

Look at figure 6.

I do think that is a problem and families and individual who are long term totally dependant on social welfare should be helped with in a different way given more intensive and targeted supports to change their situation be it education or what every, particularly those coming from a culture of
intergenerational unemployment.

jackofalltrades · 08-05-2015 02:28PM

mariaalice wrote: »

The amount of people who are too lazy to work are minuscule...

At the peak of the boom we still had approximately 100,000 people unemployed, and that's with large numbers of people migrating to take up jobs here.
Even accounting for transitional unemployment that's a lot of people not working in absolutely ideal conditions.

...so targeting them would be like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

People are already subject to interviews and assessments.
Individually targeting certain people is already happening and doesn't affect genuine job seekers.

The issuers are usually addiction, personality disorders, other undiagnosed mental health issue.

It's always a mental health issue, never any acknowledgement that some people are just happy out not working.

If someone thinks existing on 188 a week is living they should try it themselves and see how they get on long term.

That statement is meaningless without context.
In the long term, people would eventually be entitled to a lot more then just 188 a week.
Possibly in the short term as well depending on their circumstances.

Streetwalker · 08-05-2015 08:42PM

valoren wrote: »

I remember a story from during the boom time in Construction.

One lad, a career dole man, was offered €800 cash in hand to stand on a road with a stop sign and to turn in from Stop to Go every few minutes.

He turned it down saying it was demeaning.

Celtic Tiger BS story that at it's finest. The only people getting paid decent money during the boom on site where qualified in a trade. Labourers would be lucky to turn 500 quid a week after tax tops if they did a 40 hour week. Also cash in hand jobs where almost non existent during the boom on sites in Dublin anyway everything was done above board.

darkpagandeath · 08-05-2015 08:54PM

Streetwalker wrote: »

Celtic Tiger BS story that at it's finest. The only people getting paid decent money during the boom on site where qualified in a trade. Labourers would be lucky to turn 500 quid a week after tax tops if they did a 40 hour week. Also cash in hand jobs where almost non existent during the boom on sites in Dublin anyway everything was done above board.

It must be true sure it's on a dole thread, I hear the leave buggies at bus stops and get free houses and sky sports. It's amazing what 188 pw can get you in Ireland.

Agricola · 08-05-2015 10:08PM

Streetwalker wrote: »

Celtic Tiger BS story that at it's finest. The only people getting paid decent money during the boom on site where qualified in a trade. Labourers would be lucky to turn 500 quid a week after tax tops if they did a 40 hour week. Also cash in hand jobs where almost non existent during the boom on sites in Dublin anyway everything was done above board.

Exactly and if labourers were making decent money it was because they were working 10 hours days 6 days a week.

KingBrian2 · 08-05-2015 10:44PM

It would appear the Celtic Tiger focused on our emotional needs not our practical needs. The two must come together for lasting economic well being. The Economy has to grow and people have to pay for the expenses they built up only by doing this that jobs will be retained and businesses grow.

Streetwalker · 09-05-2015 09:59AM

Agricola wrote: »

Exactly and if labourers were making decent money it was because they were working 10 hours days 6 days a week.

So many myths about the celtic tiger years really, "sure we all partied" didn't one prick say once.

wingnut · 10-05-2015 11:48AM

mariaalice wrote: »

If someone thinks existing on 188 a week is living they should try it themselves and see how they get on long term.

Sick of this poor mouth claptrap. If you earn a 'good' wage of around 40 odd k you end up with about €550 after taxes and other deductions.

On a modest mortgage (200k variable) half your take home is gone already. You will have €275 per week to live on.

So you end up with about €87 a week more than social welfare. Out of that you pay.

Medical expenses & prescription (no medical card)
Things like state exam fees etc that medical card holders get free (no medical card)
Child minding (€€€€)
Cost of travel to work, food at work.
Maintenance of house & appliances (Not paid for RA or council houses)
Can't apply to the CWO for exceptional expenses.

Ok so you do end up with your house as an asset but the notion the middle classes have no appreciation of how to survive on that kind of money is total baloney. Reality is a lot of people on benefit end up with more disposable income that those on a 'good' wage.

I personally know extended family and acquaintances on SW who can afford to socialize every weekend, go on multiple holidays have expensive buggies, and generally seem to have more disposable than many of my working friends. Not hearsay personal experience.

Rant over.

going_bald · 10-05-2015 12:36PM

Streetwalker wrote: »

Celtic Tiger BS story that at it's finest. The only people getting paid decent money during the boom on site where qualified in a trade. Labourers would be lucky to turn 500 quid a week after tax tops if they did a 40 hour week. Also cash in hand jobs where almost non existent during the boom on sites in Dublin anyway everything was done above board.

+100000

the level of exageration when it comes to how much people were earning on buildings during the boom beggars belief

most who worked on sites were earning a lot less than the average guard during the boom and they had no pension pot either

its up there with the union concocted lie that public servants were laughed at during the boom

neither happened

Penny Tration · 10-05-2015 12:55PM

I've been made redundant and finish up today.

How long on the dole do I have before I'm a workshy scrounger as far as AH keyboard warriors are concerned?

Stheno · 10-05-2015 12:57PM

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

I've been made redundant and finish up today.

How long on the dole do I have before I'm a workshy scrounger as far as AH keyboard warriors are concerned?

Sorry to hear that

I'll allow you 24 hours before requiring you to change your name to workshy :pac:

Penny Tration · 10-05-2015 01:02PM

Stheno wrote: »

Sorry to hear that

I'll allow you 24 hours before requiring you to change your name to workshy :pac:

It's okay, I'll get something else quickly I'd say.

I wont have even signed on within 24 hours! Surely 48 is more reasonable?

Stheno · 10-05-2015 01:04PM

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

It's okay, I'll get something else quickly I'd say.

I wont have even signed on within 24 hours! Surely 48 is more reasonable?

I'll give you 36 so

Turtwig · 10-05-2015 02:38PM

wingnut wrote: »

Sick of this poor mouth claptrap. If you earn a 'good' wage of around 40 odd k you end up with about €550 after taxes and other deductions.

On a modest mortgage (200k variable) half your take home is gone already. You will have €275 per week to live on.

So you end up with about €87 a week more than social welfare. Out of that you pay.

Medical expenses & prescription (no medical card)
Things like state exam fees etc that medical card holders get free (no medical card)
Child minding (€€€€)
Cost of travel to work, food at work.
Maintenance of house & appliances (Not paid for RA or council houses)
Can't apply to the CWO for exceptional expenses.

Ok so you do end up with your house as an asset but the notion the middle classes have no appreciation of how to survive on that kind of money is total baloney. Reality is a lot of people on benefit end up with more disposable income that those on a 'good' wage.

I personally know extended family and acquaintances on SW who can afford to socialize every weekend, go on multiple holidays have expensive buggies, and generally seem to have more disposable than many of my working friends. Not hearsay personal experience.

Rant over.

You just compared someone who has a mortgage with someone who doesn't have a mortgage. Which is pretty significant.

Also, not everyone get's a medical card. GP visit card is becoming more frequent nowadays. Medical card does not cover all medical expenses either. People still have energy bills to pay. Not everyone get's rent allowance and many that do don't get their entire rent covered. Some people on SW actually have mortgages too.

Some people are better than managing money at others. Their level of income has little to do with it. Better bargain shoppers, more astute in savings and investments. Not everyone who is on SW entered it with zero savings. So they can afford to be loose with their spending to some extent. Btw, just from personal experience paying for a food at work is great way to leech your wallet. Make your own healthy lunches and bring them with you.

Seriously, two things that absolutely baffle me about Irish society:
People who think all their income is taxed at the higher 40% rate once they exceed the margin.
People who think being on dole/SW is better than earning a decent salary.
Both are completely untrue.

JustTheOne · 10-05-2015 02:48PM

Turtwig wrote: »

You just compared someone who has a mortgage with someone who doesn't have a mortgage. Which is pretty significant.

Also, not everyone get's a medical card. GP visit card is becoming more frequent nowadays. Medical card does not cover all medical expenses either. People still have energy bills to pay. Not everyone get's rent allowance and many that do don't get their entire rent covered. Some people on SW actually have mortgages too.

Some people are better than managing money at others. Their level of income has little to do with it. Better bargain shoppers, more astute in savings and investments. Not everyone who is on SW entered it with zero savings. So they can afford to be loose with their spending to some extent. Btw, just from personal experience paying for a food at work is great way to leech your wallet. Make your own healthy lunches and bring them with you.

Seriously, two things that absolutely baffle me about Irish society:
People who think all their income is taxed at the higher 40% rate once they exceed the margin.
People who think being on dole/SW is better than earning a decent salary.
Both are completely untrue.

Is it really untrue though.

Im not so sure.

Turtwig · 10-05-2015 02:53PM

Well you can always experiment. Get a nice job, use it to secure a mortgage, imagine circumstances outside your control have forced you to leave the job so leave it for the sake of it, then try living off the welfare system. That's basically what happened to a large proportion our population during the recession. That people constantly seek to deride that demographic is beyond me.

UCDVet · 10-05-2015 02:53PM

Turtwig wrote: »

You just compared someone who has a mortgage with someone who doesn't have a mortgage. Which is pretty significant.

Also, not everyone get's a medical card. GP visit card is becoming more frequent nowadays. Medical card does not cover all medical expenses either. People still have energy bills to pay. Not everyone get's rent allowance and many that do don't get their entire rent covered. Some people on SW actually have mortgages too.

Some people are better than managing money at others. Their level of income has little to do with it. Better bargain shoppers, more astute in savings and investments. Not everyone who is on SW entered it with zero savings. So they can afford to be loose with their spending to some extent. Btw, just from personal experience paying for a food at work is great way to leech your wallet. Make your own healthy lunches and bring them with you.

Seriously, two things that absolutely baffle me about Irish society:
People who think all their income is taxed at the higher 40% rate once they exceed the margin.
People who think being on dole/SW is better than earning a decent salary.
Both are completely untrue.

Better is highly subjective though. The truth is, if I had a choice between working full-time at a minimum wage job or collecting the dole - while I might agree that I'd have marginally more spending money working full-time, it would not be worth it (for me personally) to deal with the hassle and headaches of getting out of bed, making my commute, going to work, dealing with a boss/customers/clients, working all day long, fighting traffic on my way home, getting home 11-12 hours after I left and then spending a few precious hours at home before starting to do the whole thing again.

Maybe that's just me, but I honestly feel for people in lower paid jobs who work very hard without much hope of really increasing their earning potential. All that extra work, without a whole lot of anything to show for it.

Now sure, it's a different story for the types who'll drive their BMW into the office or whatever and make 50-70k a year without ever working too hard. Comfortable office/generic business type jobs. Yeah, I'd rather take one of those than be on the dole, but I've worked at McDonald's before. Doing that fulltime again, verse the dole? I'd take the dole every single time, given the choice.

Turtwig · 10-05-2015 03:02PM

UCDVet wrote: »

Yeah, I'd rather take one of those than be on the dole, but I've worked at McDonald's before. Doing that fulltime again, verse the dole? I'd take the dole every single time, given the choice.

That's a very fair point. Mine was aimed at people who think higher salaries are worse than the dole like the post I was replying to.

Minimum wage jobs are an interesting one. The idea one has is that people get those as a gateway to the next job. It's not really borne out though. People often get stuck in the minimum wage hole. In that respect the Dole acts as a poverty trap of sorts and we definitely need to address that. High levels of social mobility and quality of life is the optimum goal for any society. Not employment. As if all the population was employed doing menial sh1t I'd be fairly pissed. (Feel somewhat guilty too.)

Even if you ignore the issue of welfare entirely, minimum wage demographics need to be kept to an absolute minimum. We want people moving up the ladder - and most crucially have the potential to move up it.

TheBeardedLady · 10-05-2015 03:05PM

kfallon wrote: »

"What about the right not to work?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YYroSudUs

Ah Tony Benn. RIP, chum.:(

Galwayguy35 · 10-05-2015 03:39PM

Noonan was dead right, of course there are people who never want to work, breed 10 kids in as many years and expect everyone else to foot the bill.

jackofalltrades · 10-05-2015 04:04PM

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

I've been made redundant and finish up today.

Sorry to hear and good luck with everything.

How long on the dole do I have before I'm a workshy scrounger as far as AH keyboard warriors are concerned?

Symptoms included but are not limited to:

1) Only wearing a tracksuit, regardless of the occasion
2) Openly smoking illegal drugs outside your DSP office
3) Referring to your local DSP office as "da labour"

UCDVet · 10-05-2015 04:45PM

Turtwig wrote: »

That's a very fair point. Mine was aimed at people who think higher salaries are worse than the dole like the post I was replying to.

Minimum wage jobs are an interesting one. The idea one has is that people get those as a gateway to the next job. It's not really borne out though. People often get stuck in the minimum wage hole. In that respect the Dole acts as a poverty trap of sorts and we definitely need to address that. High levels of social mobility and quality of life is the optimum goal for any society. Not employment. As if all the population was employed doing menial sh1t I'd be fairly pissed. (Feel somewhat guilty too.)

Even if you ignore the issue of welfare entirely, minimum wage demographics need to be kept to an absolute minimum. We want people moving up the ladder - and most crucially have the potential to move up it.

Fair point - my apologies if I took your post out of context. I'll admit, once a thread is more than 3-4 pages, I usually just jump in at the end.

wingnut · 10-05-2015 08:32PM

Turtwig wrote: »

You just compared someone who has a mortgage with someone who doesn't have a mortgage. Which is pretty significant.

... People still have energy bills to pay.

They are not that dissimilar. I am basing that on modest mortgage which is the same as the AVERAGE rental price in Dublin.

As for the energy bills, people working pay those too. I was highlighting the expenses that you don't have when you are on SW.

I made the point to counteract the comments that people not on SW have no idea what it is like to live on €188 where in reality buy the time tax and additional expenses are factored in there is no huge gap if any (for salaries around the 40-50k mark at least).

Allergic to Work

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