Principal Officer in the Civil Service

Duckett · 25-04-2015 11:53am

fair point and thanks for the clarification - so can one assume then that there is little clarity on the number of vacancies or from which group they will be filled.

The Veteran · 25-04-2015 5:10pm

A gender mix absolutely does not apply. The only gender related point is that if you look at the CPSA Code of Practice the PAS (or any civil\public service recruiter) is required to have a gender neutral recruitment methodology and in effect to have a gender mix on any interview or selection boards.

I am in a position to know and I know there is no agreement, policy or direction\circular which requires a 50\50 open\internal split. departments will come to PAS where they have sanction to fill posts, unless the sanction permitted internal promotions, to fill posts. It is impossible to know how many posts will be filled from the open competition in the aggregate.

DSP has just launched an internal PO competition, Education has a panel recently established, Justice has made PO promotions, etc etc

I sat the exam and didn't get through but was recently judged in an internal competitio to have met the required standard but not high enough on a panel to actually get promoted.

Of course I would say this wouldn't i, but the exam is a poor assessment tool given the role concerned.

Tivoli1300 · 28-04-2015 9:14am

So could Departments bypass the external panel entirely on basis of internal panel being in existence? Or is there an agreed ratio?

Abhoth · 28-04-2015 9:19am

I think the information we now have allows up to put some tentative shape on the recruitment plans under this panel. As a rough rule of thumb, I'd expect to see about 5 full interviews per post to be appointed. Even if the number has not been fixed, this would point towards the PAS working on the assumption of about 50-60 posts to be filled.

On the mix of appointments between insiders and outsiders, I doubt there is anything firm on paper. However, as the genesis of the competition is in DPER wanting to recruit outsiders at PO level I would anticipate seeing a significant share of appointments accounted for by outsiders - maybe as high as 50% unless there is a real problem with the quality of outsider applications.

The_Conductor · 28-04-2015 9:42am

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

So could Departments bypass the external panel entirely on basis of internal panel being in existence? Or is there an agreed ratio?

Potentially Departments could. No- apparently there is no agreed ratio.

Tivoli1300 · 28-04-2015 11:10am

Wish I had known that in advance of expensive trip for interview....

surpy · 28-04-2015 7:49pm

Would anyone be willing to post a short summary of their experience / skills in applying for these?

Slydice · 28-04-2015 8:28pm

After all the posts about the online test, I'm kinda regretting not taking the online test just to see what it was like :-/

KCC · 29-04-2015 5:26pm

Slydice wrote: »

After all the posts about the online test, I'm kinda regretting not taking the online test just to see what it was like :-/

I found the online test to be relatively easy compared to others I've done. I had loads of time.

KCC · 29-04-2015 5:28pm

surpy wrote: »

Would anyone be willing to post a short summary of their experience / skills in applying for these?

From what I've heard, many who applied are at the AP level in the civil service. .

The Veteran · 29-04-2015 9:41pm

I heard from a very reliable source that they were told that the majority of applicants were already civil or public servants. Don't know numbers.

going places · 01-05-2015 1:58pm

Anybody got there next set of instructions yet? Was hoping to work in them this weekend but now unlikely...
I'm in on 12th May for next grilling

Abhoth · 01-05-2015 3:17pm

Not me, but I'm wondering if they might send the instructions out the same length of time in advance for each candidate to level the playing field? That might mean about week in advance. I'm later in the month myself.

cbbr · 03-05-2015 8:58pm

Has anyone gone anywhere for interview prep or can anyone recommend someone good? I have had disastrous competency based interviews before!

Omnishambles99 · 06-05-2015 11:19pm

CBBR, I'd check with any of the numerous communications skills/personal development consultants and/or agencies around town, there are enough of them. they'd help in honing your particular skills and experience to best fit the competency based interview setting

Public2015 · 19-05-2015 9:12am

So, does anyone have any thoughts on the process that they'd like to share with us? What was the assessment day like?

It's gone very quiet in here.......

Abhoth · 19-05-2015 12:10pm

Public2015 wrote: »

So, does anyone have any thoughts on the process that they'd like to share with us? What was the assessment day like?

It's gone very quiet in here.......

It's not that surprising that it has gone quiet. We are down to 300 or so from an original field of maybe a couple of thousand. It's probably not in the interests of those who are still in the running to share information with competitors they do not know, particularly as the PAS seems to be waiting until about a week before interviews before sending out briefing material.

going places · 19-05-2015 3:27pm

I found the on-line assessment harder, the case study plenty of time and the interview all competency based.
Of the 10 or so other candidates I met, 9 were APs across the civil service.
Staff in PAS really pleasant to deal with.
Interviews continuing this week and next, so do not expect to hear anything until mid-June I suspect.
Advice, get a good nights sleep, its a long process

Public2015 · 19-05-2015 3:31pm

Abhoth wrote: »

It's not that surprising that it has gone quiet. We are down to 300 or so from an original field of maybe a couple of thousand. It's probably not in the interests of those who are still in the running to share information with competitors they do not know, particularly as the PAS seems to be waiting until about a week before interviews before sending out briefing material.

Hopefully not everyone will be as cynical as that.

[wink]

Uriel. · 19-05-2015 6:33pm

going places wrote: »

I found the on-line assessment harder, the case study plenty of time and the interview all competency based.
Of the 10 or so other candidates I met, 9 were APs across the civil service.
Staff in PAS really pleasant to deal with.
Interviews continuing this week and next, so do not expect to hear anything until mid-June I suspect.
Advice, get a good nights sleep, its a long process

I can echo this. I actually did find the online thing harder as well. Clearly another means to offload some candidates.

Everything else was as expected. Can't really say how I performed... You can really only say, I find, if it was a disaster. Anything else I find impossible to evaluate

Tivoli1300 · 19-05-2015 8:11pm

As do I echo it re the verification exercises and it is a relief to find others feel similarly. If the 15% variation is applied I will be out not just because the tests were harder but becuase I was so tired at that, for me, final stage. A good night's sleep is highly recommended beforehand. The rest of it is a mix of pretty good recollections and those best not dwelt on!

Good luck to all who sail from here.

NapoleonInRags · 23-05-2015 12:22am

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

As do I echo it re the verification exercises and it is a relief to find others feel similarly. If the 15% variation is applied I will be out not just because the tests were harder but becuase I was so tired at that, for me, final stage. A good night's sleep is highly recommended beforehand. The rest of it is a mix of pretty good recollections and those best not dwelt on!

Good luck to all who sail from here.

As a matter of interest, where did you get the 15% figure from?

Tivoli1300 · 23-05-2015 11:53am

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

As a matter of interest, where did you get the 15% figure from?

It was on one of the briefing documents that tesults may be called into question if more than 15% discrepancy.

NapoleonInRags · 25-05-2015 12:02am

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

It was on one of the briefing documents that tesults may be called into question if more than 15% discrepancy.

Are you sure? The only reference on my documentation was to the requirement to be within 'an expected range'?

The_Conductor · 25-05-2015 6:38am

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

Are you sure? The only reference on my documentation was to the requirement to be within 'an expected range'?

The expected range was 12.5% for some of the other competitions- not sure about PO.

Tivoli1300 · 25-05-2015 7:04am

The_Conductor wrote: »

The expected range was 12.5% for some of the other competitions- not sure about PO.

I no longer have the booklet, must have recalled percentage wrongly.

NapoleonInRags · 25-05-2015 8:35pm

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

I no longer have the booklet, must have recalled percentage wrongly.

There was no percentage specified in the booklet.

Tivoli1300 · 26-05-2015 8:50am

I picked it up somewhere, maybe it was in conversation at the competition. The point I was making was to do with my own discrepancy which exceeded 15% I am pretty sure.

NapoleonInRags · 26-05-2015 10:00am

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

I picked it up somewhere, maybe it was in conversation at the competition. The point I was making was to do with my own discrepancy which exceeded 15% I am pretty sure.

Most people I've spoken to felt that the second part of the exercise was significantly harder than the original test. It's hard to put a figure on how much more difficult but it seemed to be 20-30% - if that makes sense.

Surely if they are expecting candidates to be within a tight range of the first exercise score the standard of both should be similar?

Tivoli1300 · 26-05-2015 10:51am

There are two ways of approaching it.

They may do an averaging/ranking exercise again and compare ranked position. So to take an extreme example, if you came first and then came last, your results could come into question.

They could of course do a raw comparison of percentage scores which would be difficult to do accurately if the tests were fundamentally different in levels of difficulty as seems to have been the case here.

The former approach is fairer if the comparability of the testing material comes into question. We can but wait and see if any of us were disqualified and on what basis.

In all my dealings with PAC I have found them relentlessly fair so I am encouraged to hear that many people had more difficulty with the validation exercise.

NapoleonInRags · 26-05-2015 1:03pm

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

There are two ways of approaching it.

They may do an averaging/ranking exercise again and compare ranked position. So to take an extreme example, if you came first and then came last, your results could come into question.

They could of course do a raw comparison of percentage scores which would be difficult to do accurately if the tests were fundamentally different in levels of difficulty as seems to have been the case here.

The former approach is fairer if the comparability of the testing material comes into question. We can but wait and see if any of us were disqualified and on what basis.

In all my dealings with PAC I have found them relentlessly fair so I am encouraged to hear that many people had more difficulty with the validation exercise.

That all makes perfect sense. Cheers.

going places · 02-06-2015 3:36pm

So, we're into June, anybody know when we will hear from them again, they MUST have finished the 333 by now...

Tivoli1300 · 02-06-2015 3:44pm

Mid June is what I was told on the day. Wonder how many will be placed on panel....

Tivoli1300 · 02-06-2015 4:00pm

Anyone like to share a few demographics? Few women (two), few externals (two) and three no shows on the day I was there (early May). Was this typical?

going places · 02-06-2015 4:03pm

In my group of 7 - 2 women, 4 men, 4 APs, 1 banker and 1 public service, (and 1 no show a woman)

Tivoli1300 · 02-06-2015 4:15pm

Sorry should have said, there were 15 in my group.

Glinda · 02-06-2015 5:22pm

I was early May too, didn't notice anything in particular about gender balance (although now that I think of it there were fewer women). Definitely only a tiny minority from outside the civil service - I only met two (and one was from a very large company that was formerly public).

I thought the questions in the online tests were about the same difficulty as before, but the first time I was able to go back several times and check my answers, this time I only had time to work through once, very little time for re-checking. So I probably scored worse there

.

The written report thing was horrendous - found the time pressure there very difficult. Presentation and interview were fine (I think

)

Tivoli1300 · 02-06-2015 5:49pm

The interview was the part I did best in too. I don't recall a more challinging assessment centre experience of the number I have done.

KCC · 02-06-2015 8:37pm

4 people out of six showed up on my day.

Two were private sector (one male, one female) and two were civil service Assistant Principals (again one male and one female).

Two people didn't show up and they were female. Their names were called out so it didn't seem like they had cancelled in advance.

I found the exercise to be pressurised but interesting. The presentation/discussion on same was enjoyable.

The interview was not fun and I'm fairly sure I didn't get it!

The job sim part of the verification test was fine but the analysis exercise was a head wreck (and I had found the original test to be fairly easy).

NapoleonInRags · 15-06-2015 10:50pm

Results out late this week or early next week apparently.

going places · 17-06-2015 5:49pm

So I did not make it this time, anyone else got a result?

KCC · 17-06-2015 7:02pm

Got placed in the fifties.

RiseToMe · 17-06-2015 7:02pm

Wife has placed very early 60s. She's disappointed as she was hoping she would place at least the other side of 50 to be in with any chance. But I've not given up hope for her yet!

Uriel. · 17-06-2015 7:54pm

I would have thought that you would need to be hitting the first 30 to be in with a realistic shout of a position, given the high level of the position and given that a number of Departments have active internal PO panels. But fingers crossed.

RiseToMe · 17-06-2015 8:19pm

Uriel. wrote: »

I would have thought that you would need to be hitting the first 30 to be in with a realistic shout of a position, given the high level of the position and given that a number of Departments have active internal PO panels. But fingers crossed.

Yeah her opinion is first 20 have a good shot but beyond that to 50 it's just hope and anything higher and it's pissing in the wind. However for her sake I'll hope there is an serious drop out from any non internal candidates. Anyway well done all!

KCC · 17-06-2015 8:23pm

Uriel. wrote: »

I would have thought that you would need to be hitting the first 30 to be in with a realistic shout of a position, given the high level of the position and given that a number of Departments have active internal PO panels. But fingers crossed.

I think you could be right. However, bear in mind that there could be people who got high up on this panel who have since been promoted internally to PO. Others may have only done it for practice/developmental purposes and may not be willing to take a pay cut as PO. Others (myself included) might be fussy re: location and as such will turn down offers.

As such, there may be both external and internal "drop outs".

The_Conductor · 17-06-2015 8:23pm

Whats the lifespan of the panel? There are quite a cohort at PO and APO who will be retiring in the next 18 months....... (not to mention the other grades)....... Some Departments have recently hit unusual milestones in the last few months (e.g. one has 51 as the average age of staff- which really is quite remarkable- and its far from unusual).......

Uriel. · 17-06-2015 8:24pm

All depends on the economic circumstances and the length of time the panel stays active. If it was closer to two years rather than one year it might help but sure look, you never know what's around the corner. It would be interesting to know the % of the first 100 that are presently APs

Uriel. · 17-06-2015 8:26pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Whats the lifespan of the panel? There are quite a cohort at PO and APO who will be retiring in the next 18 months....... (not to mention the other grades)....... Some Departments have recently hit unusual milestones in the last few months (e.g. one has 51 as the average age of staff- which really is quite remarkable- and its far from unusual).......

Lifespan is at least one year. So it's hard to know how long it will remain active. But anything longer than 18 months would probably be unusual enough.

KCC · 17-06-2015 9:13pm

Uriel. wrote: »

All depends on the economic circumstances and the length of time the panel stays active. If it was closer to two years rather than one year it might help but sure look, you never know what's around the corner. It would be interesting to know the % of the first 100 that are presently APs

I'm a HEO so this is a major achievement for me! I've only heard of three others who got placed and they are APs.

Principal Officer in the Civil Service

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