Principal Officer in the Civil Service

Zipppy

Principal Officer roles advertised this morning...

Yeboah

Probably a better chance of getting on the mission to Mars but best of luck to all those who apply.

Personally I would prefer to see the PAS take on a a lot more EOs and let these people progress to HEO, AP, PO but that my humble opinion.

The Veteran

Anyone who applied got a mail today, results due out in a few days. Don't have any detail but doesn't sound like too many applied ... Only two posts on here compared to thousands on CO thread

Slydice

I'd say a lot of people applying for PO would be in the AP grade. I'd say many of them wouldn't know/use boards. Of those that do, they might be too busy to post often.

wopbop22

I got the message. It was hard to know if I did well in the online tests. How did others get on? Does anyone know what the next stage might be?

Tivoli1300

hi, good to hear from other applicants. next stage is competitive interview in May. Best of luck.

Tigger99

How do you know next stage is competitive interview? The message nor the accompanying material specifies that? In fact it suggests possibly another test in the document we got weeks ago.

Tivoli1300

Tigger99 wrote: »

How do you know next stage is competitive interview? The message nor the accompanying material specifies that? In fact it suggests possibly another test in the document we got weeks ago.

Sorry assumed on basis that next stage, for those who get there, is in Chapter House in May according to the recent letter. On basis of the earlier documentation and previous experience I expect supervised tests followed by interview. I could be wrong of course but difficult and expensive to call people twice.

Tigger99

Are you guessing or do you know much about the PAS process? The whole point of supervised tests is to (a) validate the unsupervised test results and (b) whittle down the numbers that would get called to interview. So it wouldn't make sense to have these tests and an interview on the same day.

Tivoli1300

Tigger99 wrote: »

Are you guessing or do you know much about the PAS process? The whole point of supervised tests is to (a) validate the unsupervised test results and (b) whittle down the numbers that would get called to interview. So it wouldn't make sense to have these tests and an interview on the same day.

My understanding is that the whittling down for interview is done on the basis of aptitude tests and second half of application form in first instance.

Second supervised aptitude test is to confirm no cheating not primarily for whittling down purposes other than those thought to have cheated. applicants may have anither assessment at this stage - eg prepare presentation fir interview panel based in policy papers which get an hour or so to study.

The Veteran

Remember we have all submitted detailed forms. I would expect a multi faceted next stage consisting of written exercises, presentation and interview in the same day. I wouldn't really expect a second web (albeit supervised) test.

Also as a poster above said that most who applied for this wouldn't be on here ... My intelligence is telling me that most who applied are already in the civil\public service. I don't have definite information on numbers but I suspect or estimate no more than maybe 2,000 applied.

I would say the form put a lot off plus a salary starting at €79,000 is not that attractive to those outside the public service who are at a level in their career equivalent to APs (I.e. The level below POs). For someone coming from outside you have to deduct the Pension Levy which would be around €6,000 on that salary so the salary is "really" only €73,000 plus there is no bonus, commission, free travel tickets, free health insurance, company cars etc.

Whilst some will say €73,000 is a good salary it is but the reality is it isn't great if you are trying to attract the people you want as POs.

We will know tomorrow or Monday anyways.

The_Conductor

The Veteran wrote: »

I don't have definite information on numbers but I suspect or estimate no more than maybe 2,000 applied.

2,000?
I'd be quite surprised if 200 applied.
Do people actually have any idea what the role entails?

wopbop22

It is difficult to know what the next stage is. I would have expected supervised repeats of the tests which seems to be the norm for recent EO and AO competitions. How did people find the online tests? It was hard to be sure what the 'correct' answers to the situational part was but I thought the verbal and numerical section was not as difficult as I expected.

The Veteran

Wopbop ... AO and PO are worlds apart!
Conductor ... I would think half the APOs in the Service have applied plus equivalents in public sector like Grade 8s in HSE and the like. You would easily get 2,000 and I would say that they would know what it entails. I don't think though that a lot of "external" candidates would though (hopefully).

Tivoli1300

1,000 applied for the PO competition in 2007, 12 posts and i think 60 or so called to interview. Success rate 1.2%. I found exercises easier than expected too but maybe missed catches. In any event imagine an averaging exercise will be done so if all do well, the test average or pass mark will be high.

Tivoli1300

Does anyone know how many PO vacancies are to be filled? Imagine more than 12 with incentivised retirements etc? Also expect more than 1,000 applicants however, as secure, interesting job is very attractive even if salary is not great for level of seniority.

wopbop22

Well it looks like it will be early next week before we receive notification from PAS. Had hoped to hear before the weekend. I would have imagined there would be quite a few vacancies but I have heard that some Departments have had internal interviews for promotion to PO so I suppose not all PO vacancies will be filled from this panel

The Veteran

The 2007 situation was different in that only posts where a person resigned not retired could be filled from that panel. That was at a time when open recruitment to grades above AO didn't happen.

There is massive attrition at the CO and EO levels involving open competitions. There won't be anything like that attrition in this competition. DPER will want to see posts filled from it but Dept's are busy sorting out internals and will only come to this panel if they have to.

The_Conductor

Some internal competitions had closes over 6 months ago- and stage 2s haven't been announced yet. The logjam internally- is quite remarkable........

The Veteran

Interesting Conductor ... What Dept's?

I know in Education they have just formed a panel having started and finished the competition in February and March. DPER have had one as far as I know and justice and DFAT too. They are making promos.

We'll see what happens, it all happens by magic behind closed doors usually.

RiseToMe

Results are out. Hope you all did well!

Tivoli1300

Delighted to be one of the 333 through to next stage which I imagine is a CV whittle down as 333 (wow, big number) is surely too many to go to Chapter House?

Glinda

Maybe there were only 333 of us

Tivoli1300

And 300 positions!!!

wopbop22

I got a result in the 450 - 500 bracket so didn't make it through. The standard must be high as my individual scores in each section were over 500. Best of luck to everyone else in the next stage.

Tivoli1300

wopbop22 wrote: »

I got a result in the 450 - 500 bracket so didn't make it through. The standard must be high as my individual scores in each section were over 500. Best of luck to everyone else in the next stage.

Hard luck Wopbop and sorry to see you go, probably see you at the next competition flying through.

KCC

Through as well. I'd love to be able to edit my application form now - I don't think it's good enough in hindsight

Public2015

When the email says...

"I am pleased to inform you that you have reached the qualifying standard and have been placed [number] on the order of merit."

...is the [number] the position you came in the tests? In other words, if it said "...have been placed 1 on the order of merit." (not me by the way), would that mean you came 1st out of all the applicants?

Just curious.

The Veteran

Yes that is what it means.

There are a gang of us who are not through who are scratching our heads. I know one chap who is true and when compared answers on the analysis paper and there is now way he could have scored more than me but did - so don't know how the papers were scored but it wasn't just on your answers.

The other aspect is that the information booklet and form spoke about and sought information on senior management experience and experience in specific areas; I don't mean to be rude to anyone who is true but I am not sure the exam has produced a list which is consistent with the objectives! Will be interesting to see what happens with the next stage.

Tivoli1300

I imagine what they do it set a cut off point for the aptitude test say the top 30 percent. Assuming 1200 apply that would mean 400. That is still too big a group to interview so an assessment of senior management competency is then done on the basis of the second half of the questionnaire bringing that group down to the number they will interview - 50 or 60 at a guess based on what was reported about the 2007 competition.

The Veteran

333 through is a strange number and maybe it is one third of the applications. I wouldn't compare this competition to 07 - only very specific posts (those posts vacated following resignations NOT retirements) could be filled from open recruitment in 07. I would expect more than 50 to be interviewed but I think Tivoli is right 333 will not be put through the half or full day process which will be the substantive part of the next phase.

We'll see though ...


(Apologies for "true" twice in my last post rather than "through")

Tivoli1300

Thanks Veteran. So are you expecting more than 12 posts to be on offer? What is the ratio of internal departmental to open competition appointments under the new regime compared to the old?

If there were more posts on offer than 2007 one would expect a much greater number of internal applications. Given the times we are in, I would have though a higer level of external ones too but who knows, I geuss we will find out more as the competition progresses.

Public2015

The Veteran wrote: »

There are a gang of us who are not through who are scratching our heads. I know one chap who is true and when compared answers on the analysis paper and there is now way he could have scored more than me but did - so don't know how the papers were scored but it wasn't just on your answers.

I did make it through (to the next round at least), but I found the questions in the online test to be odd and hard to follow. Some more detailed guidance in advance would have been helpful. But, I suppose they were equally odd and hard to follow for everyone, so in that sense it is fair. No idea how they score them though.

Public2015

Tivoli1300 wrote: »

So are you expecting more than 12 posts to be on offer? What is the ratio of internal departmental to open competition appointments under the new regime compared to the old?

Once this panel is set up, are all PO positions meant to be drawn from it? Or will departments still be able to have their own separate competitions (internal or external) and avoid using the panel at all? There seem to be a lot of PO jobs on offer at the moment, in advance of the panel being set up.

Abhoth

I am an external candidate through to stage 2. Very interested to see the conversation here so far.

I thought the online test was well designed. The whole point of the analysis paper seemed to test how well you could understand things that were hard to follow. I thought the job simulation test asked some fairly penetrating questions about the choices and decisions a PO should make. I found the sample questions provided in advance very helpful - particularly for figuring out how to approach the job simulation test.

Looking forward to finding out what happens in the next stage. Best of luck to others in the process.

Kagi

Just got a message about the next stage.

It's a full-day assessment centre. Presentation, interview, more online scenario and analysis exercises.

KCC

It's all happening very fast! I'm through but I don't think I have enough senior management experience so am thinking of not going any further. I just did the exam for the practice.

Are any others here in a similar situation?

SF12

I applied, didn't get through. No. 77something. My scores were around the 500 marks for both tests. I was surprised because I thought the first one I did fairly well in (in an arm of the PS already, so have fairly good exposure to the types of scenario mentioned).
Maybe your tests and your experience are taken in to account?? I wouldn't have too much senior management experience I suppose.

Uriel.

KCC wrote: »

It's all happening very fast! I'm through but I don't think I have enough senior management experience so am thinking of not going any further. I just did the exam for the practice.

Are any others here in a similar situation?

You'd be mad not to give the assessment center a lash tbh. Even if you don't think you have enough experience, it is worth giving it a go. Plus, you talk about practice, you won't get a better chance for "a dry run" of all of the various assessments and the interview required.

Uriel.

SF12 wrote: »

I applied, didn't get through. No. 77something. My scores were around the 500 marks for both tests. I was surprised because I thought the first one I did fairly well in (in an arm of the PS already, so have fairly good exposure to the types of scenario mentioned).
Maybe your tests and your experience are taken in to account?? I wouldn't have too much senior management experience I suppose.

i thought the first 333 were called forward?

dixiefly

I think they were saying 771-779

Uriel.

dixiefly wrote: »

I think they were saying 771-779

They were calling 779 for second stage? Really? Surely not?

Kagi

Uriel. wrote: »

They were calling 779 for second stage? Really? Surely not?

This is beginning to feel like one of those exercises on textual analysis ;-)

What was meant was that the poster in question came somewhere in the 770s on the order of merit. The cutoff point for stage 2 is 333.

Uriel.

Kagi wrote: »

This is beginning to feel like one of those exercises on textual analysis ;-)

What was meant was that the poster in question came somewhere in the 770s on the order of merit. The cutoff point for stage 2 is 333.

Agreed get you now.. Read the first one as 77 or something and then thought the other poster was saying the first 770 were called

FloatingVoter

Anyone interested in some real time job simulation might want to have a look at this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057416428&page=20

Gael23

I also imagine most of these will be internal promotions?

Slydice

Gael23 wrote: »

I also imagine most of these will be internal promotions?

PO is a fairly high up position and I'm not as familiar with it as the other competitions but...

... I'd say it depends.

It's more than likely based on the results of that online test. Then your ability to demonstrate some competencies, skills and experience in the interview. I'd say Experience by Example would be a big deal "I'm great cos I did X" if ya catch my drift except way more professional sounding .

So because of that, the reason I say it depends is because it'll probably depend on how many well Experienced external candidates are going for the job. It'll be their competencies/skills/experience up against the internal candidates competencies/skills/experience.

The_Conductor

Gael23 wrote: »

I also imagine most of these will be internal promotions?

I think (I'm open to correction) that the agreement was 50% internal, 50% external- same as for the other recent competitions. DPER would like it to be 100% external- but there would be rebellion if that happened (aside from any other reason- there would instantly be no path to promotion for an APO internally in the civil service).

As HOD posts- they are senior recruitment grades- so it'll be interesting to see if the candidates are perceived to have the relevant experience for the posts (and those who do- whether they are willing to consider the salaries on offer- when similar posts in the private sector are much better paid).

Abhoth

The_Conductor wrote: »

I think (I'm open to correction) that the agreement was 50% internal, 50% external- same as for the other recent competitions. DPER would like it to be 100% external- but there would be rebellion if that happened (aside from any other reason- there would instantly be no path to promotion for an APO internally in the civil service).

When you say 50% internal, 50% external, are you counting non-CS public service as external or internal?

Duckett

my instinct is that the ratio will be more likely 30% to externals and 70% to internal candidates. I don't think they have a target for either. It will depend on the quality of candidates that come through the process. A gender mix will also apply. CS needs new blood however there are excellent internal candidates who have soldiered on despite salary cuts since the crisis started. The better candidates deserve promotion given what they have been through just as externals deserve consideration. Internals have an advantage as they understand the culture.

Tigger99

You seem to be mixing up the internal / external thing.

Internal in this case means internal competition and external is an open competition, i.e any person can go for it.

A 50/50 mix means taking one person from an internal competition and one person from an external competition. That person from the external comp could easily be a serving civil servant.

I know there is quite a bit of paranoia about the gender mix but I don't think it has ever applied and certainly won't start now.