Football Crisis - What's to be done?

QuinDixie · 13-04-2015 1:56pm

Both games yesterday showed that the game is doing alright.
Some great scores and attractive football.
What do people expect from football, some people seem to gave this bizarre idea that football is poor to watch or it was better in the day.
I think the standards in football have never been as high.

Last 4 years have been dominated by Kerry, Mayo, Donegal and Dublin and I believe we are going through a golden era and I expect the standard to improve.

I think we should not tinker too much with a great game, you would swear great defending has no place in modern football.

Flukey · 13-04-2015 2:23pm

When a sport played badly, in a negative way, people start giving out and blaming rules. Yes, we can get games like the recent Dublin v Derry game, but under the exact same rules we can get games like the Dublin v Kerry semi-final in 2013. So it is not always the rules that are at fault or even referees that don't properly implement them. A bad game stems first from the tactics and style of play of the teams. That is not always determined by rules.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 13-04-2015 2:28pm

GBXI wrote: »

Sorry but you need to be pulled up on this awful logic. While it maybe a minor issue, it is still very much an issue and a clear one at that. Your attitude is the one I dislike most about the GAA - the sort of half-arsed, unprofessional attitude towards rules and their importance.

The fact that the linesmen and refs can spot this issue easily is the whole reason why it's then so annoying, i.e. that they choose not to do anything about it. There are a number of these little issues that, if they wanted, the GAA could sort out in the morning but they are too conservative to do so.

The rules are important but linesmen and referees are human and therefore you cannot expect perfection from them.As a result I ( and I suspect many others) don't really mind if very minor things like the position a free is taken from is not really focused on by the referee.The position a free is taken from (which is what you are focusing on) is not a big issue in the game and it does not alter the entertainment value of the game.It may be wrong to take a free from a slightly incorrect position but it isn't really a big deal and frankly if it favours the attacking team than I don't really mind.

The GAA have focussed a lot on minor nitpicking rule changes like the stupid rule that all line balls had to be taken from behind the sideline even though there was barely enough space in a lot of grounds to take a sideline ball properly without stepping onto the field of play.

I'd rather the referee's focus on the real issues in the game like incessant tactical fouling and jersey pulling that goes on than asking a free taker to move a ball back by one yard.

GBXI · 13-04-2015 3:40pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The rules are important but linesmen and referees are human and therefore you cannot expect perfection from them.As a result I ( and I suspect many others) don't really mind if very minor things like the position a free is taken from is not really focused on by the referee.The position a free is taken from (which is what you are focusing on) is not a big issue in the game and it does not alter the entertainment value of the game.It may be wrong to take a free from a slightly incorrect position but it isn't really a big deal and frankly if it favours the attacking team than I don't really mind.

The GAA have focused a lot on minor nitpicking rule changes like the stupid rule that all line balls had to be taken from behind the sideline even though there was barely enough space in a lot of grounds to take a sideline ball properly without stepping onto the field of play.

I'd rather the referee's focus on the real issues in the game like incessant tactical fouling and jersey pulling that goes on than asking a free taker to move a ball back by one yard.

It's not about perfection, it's about enforcing the rules. I don't think I've ever seen a ref pull up a free-taker for not taking the free in the correct position (one in a score-able position that is). But in nearly every game forwards are "stealing" metres and they are not being pulled up on it. The most obvious example I can remember was last years AI semi final replay in Limerick where BJ Keane on more than one occasion managed to get at least 4-5 metres closer to the goal making a not-too-difficult, yet pressure free, into a tap over. And yes they can make a massive difference, even if it's a minor issue overall.

The line-ball rule is exactly the type of thing that they should be doing more of. It used to be farcical how far onto the pitch players would come to kick a line-ball, but fair play to the GAA, they sorted it out. As you say, they need to sort out (badly) the cynical slowing down of frees after they have been conceded, amongst other things.

The reason I bang on about this is that, in my opinion, the players and management at County and Senior club level approach the game in a professional manner but the Administrators have an amateur approach to the whole thing.

wackokid · 13-04-2015 3:53pm

Cheating is cheating is cheating and if a player scores a free 5 or 10 yards closer to goal and of course reducing the angle................then he should be booked and the free reversed.

Nobody is talking about frees out or sidelines FFS but ............a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.....................that's you Dingus

DDC1990 · 13-04-2015 4:15pm

GBXI wrote: »

It's not about perfection, it's about enforcing the rules. I don't think I've ever seen a ref pull up a free-taker for not taking the free in the correct position (one in a score-able position that is). But in nearly every game forwards are "stealing" metres and they are not being pulled up on it. The most obvious example I can remember was last years AI semi final replay in Limerick where BJ Keane on more than one occasion managed to get at least 4-5 metres closer to the goal making a not-too-difficult, yet pressure free, into a tap over. And yes they can make a massive difference, even if it's a minor issue overall.

That particular free was given right in near the goals for Kieran Donaghy being dragged off the ball, right as it was being played, the referee played advantage and let the play develop. The ball landed out near the sideline, where Donaghy and Cafferkey challenged for the ball. At this point it was clear that no advantage was accruing and the referee gave the free to Kerry from the spot of the foul, where BJK tapped the ball over.

Tommy Carr was co-commentator at the time and surprise surprise he got it wrong and went on a big rant about how it was never a free etc.

BJK only had one more free and it was right in front of the posts, where he was fouled. Again the ever wise Tommy Carr went on about how it wasn't a free, but the replay showed the Boyle clearly lifted the knee into his chest.

There are hundreds of examples, plenty involving Kerrymen i'm sure, but BJK can't really be accused of it in that game.

I do agree with you on the cynical slowing down of frees (which has creeped into Kerry's game a lot recently, and was on show in that Mayo game from both sides.) An Aussie rules style 50m penalty would stop that in a heartbeat I feel.

GBXI · 14-04-2015 9:58am

DDC1990 wrote: »

That particular free was given right in near the goals for Kieran Donaghy being dragged off the ball, right as it was being played, the referee played advantage and let the play develop. The ball landed out near the sideline, where Donaghy and Cafferkey challenged for the ball. At this point it was clear that no advantage was accruing and the referee gave the free to Kerry from the spot of the foul, where BJK tapped the ball over.

Tommy Carr was co-commentator at the time and surprise surprise he got it wrong and went on a big rant about how it was never a free etc.

BJK only had one more free and it was right in front of the posts, where he was fouled. Again the ever wise Tommy Carr went on about how it wasn't a free, but the replay showed the Boyle clearly lifted the knee into his chest.

There are hundreds of examples, plenty involving Kerrymen i'm sure, but BJK can't really be accused of it in that game.

I do agree with you on the cynical slowing down of frees (which has creeped into Kerry's game a lot recently, and was on show in that Mayo game from both sides.) An Aussie rules style 50m penalty would stop that in a heartbeat I feel.

Ah here, I'm not getting into a Kerry v Mayo debate or the merits of the frees in extra time in that game. That wasn't my point - it was that free takers, from all counties, are not taking frees from the correct positions and it's an issue that is easily rectifiable by the GAA , if they so wish.

keane2097 · 14-04-2015 11:04am

GBXI wrote: »

Ah here, I'm not getting into a Kerry v Mayo debate or the merits of the frees in extra time in that game. That wasn't my point - it was that free takers, from all counties, are not taking frees from the correct positions and it's an issue that is easily rectifiable by the GAA , if they so wish.

I think it's fair enough to expect to be corrected when incorrectly singling out an individual player tbh.

GBXI · 14-04-2015 11:38am

keane2097 wrote: »

I think it's fair enough to expect to be corrected when incorrectly singling out an individual player tbh.

Ok then, since you asked so nicely! Keane stole a rake of yards in the 1st half of extra time in the replay, clear as day. It's not slight on his character, you'd be an idiot not to take extra yards if you could, but it needs to be clamped down.

keane2097 · 14-04-2015 3:09pm

GBXI wrote: »

Ok then, since you asked so nicely! Keane stole a rake of yards in the 1st half of extra time in the replay, clear as day. It's not slight on his character, you'd be an idiot not to take extra yards if you could, but it needs to be clamped down.

DDC explained that what you're saying happened isn't correct.

Nidgeweasel · 14-04-2015 4:47pm

Kerry should do the honourable thing and offer Mayo a replay.

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-04-2015 9:48pm

Oddly enough Tommy was giving out about stealing yards on frees while doing radio commentary on the Cork v Donegal game on Sunday.

To be honest a spray marker like they have in soccer to mark the spot of the free would be handy.

I can't remember if BJK was stealing yards it in Limerick and I have zero desire to rewatch that video.

ciarriaithuaidh · 14-04-2015 11:17pm

Stealing yards, yes it's something that more could be done about. Bit unfair to focus on 1 particular player or county as every single freetaker I've seen tries to do it.
But anyway, IMO, the acting the b*llox that goes on stopping quick taking of frees is a much bigger problem. I would have liked to see them bring in the 30m penalty for such stuff. Would eliminate 99% of it I'd say.

bruschi · 15-04-2015 7:55am

on the topic of stealing yards taking frees, what bugs me most is that if you are kicking it off the ground, the referee will go nuts and make you place the ball in the exact specific spot the free occurred. As a free taker who kicked off the ground, it annoyed me so much, as it wasnt a case of gaining ground, but more so to find a good spot for placing the ball, somewhere within a half metre arc of where the free happened. The ref would come in, make sure it was on the exact spot, and if not it would be a throw in. Whereas kicking it out of the hand means you can start your run up from where the free happened and get 3 or 4 metres, not the measly few inches when kicking off the ground.

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-04-2015 12:59pm

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Stealing yards, yes it's something that more could be done about. Bit unfair to focus on 1 particular player or county as every single freetaker I've seen tries to do it.
But anyway, IMO, the acting the b*llox that goes on stopping quick taking of frees is a much bigger problem. I would have liked to see them bring in the 30m penalty for such stuff. Would eliminate 99% of it I'd say.

Well BJK has form when it comes to "antics".

I have never seen anyone at senior inter county level pull as stunt like he did when he kicked the ball off Durcan's kicking tee late in the All Ireland

keane2097 · 15-04-2015 1:17pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well BJK has form when it comes to "antics".

I have never seen anyone at senior inter county level pull as stunt like he did when he kicked the ball off Durcan's kicking tee late in the All Ireland

Donaghy did the exact same thing to Mayo in the semi-final

Prop Joe · 15-04-2015 1:20pm

keane2097 wrote: »

Donaghy did the exact same thing to Mayo in the semi-final

Kevin Mcloughlin did it to Cluxton in the League last year also which led to a Cluxton red if memory serves me correct.

There should be a black card for unsporting behaviour and it would cut all that non sense out

ciarriaithuaidh · 15-04-2015 1:25pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well BJK has form when it comes to "antics".

I have never seen anyone at senior inter county level pull as stunt like he did when he kicked the ball off Durcan's kicking tee late in the All Ireland

You must be joking? You are surely not that naive or blind Tod?

2 things spring immediately to mind.
- Multiple Dublin players (McMenamin for definite) hauling down Mayo players in their own half in the last few mins of the 2013 final, kicking the ball away to prevent quick frees being taken.
- Peter Canavan jumping on Gooch and virtually pinning him to the ground at the death of the 2005 final when Kerry were looking for a goal.

One could go on, but you get the picture.

Do I blame Dublin/Tyrone or the offending players here...I'd be a hypocrite if I did as I have done the same myself, as have many I'm sure.

Would I condone the kicking the ball away off the tee last year, no absolutely not. If necessary it should be added to black card offences and a 30m penalty rule applied also. Was it something unique to 1 player or team..only a fool would suggest so. And it's quite petty of you to start getting into the player's record which has absolutely nothing to do with the argument.

keane2097 · 15-04-2015 1:30pm

Prop Joe wrote: »

Kevin Mcloughlin did it to Cluxton in the League last year also which led to a Cluxton red if memory serves me correct.

There should be a black card for unsporting behaviour and it would cut all that non sense out

I forgot that one, better again.

https://vine.co/v/MeuIAmBblhd

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-04-2015 1:56pm

I cannot recall seeing a player kick the ball off the keepers kicking tee as the keeper was getting ready to kick it out.

I'm not saying that BJK is the first man to ever obstruct a kick out or a free, I'm just pointing out that it's the first time I saw such an act, I.e. kicking the ball off the tee.

And there is no need to get so worked up about it folks.

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-04-2015 1:57pm

keane2097 wrote: »

Donaghy did the exact same thing to Mayo in the semi-final

As I said I'm not watching that again

ciarriaithuaidh · 15-04-2015 2:06pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I cannot recall seeing a player kick the ball off the keepers kicking tee as the keeper was getting ready to kick it out.

I'm not saying that BJK is the first man to ever obstruct a kick out or a free, I'm just pointing out that it's the first time I saw such an act, I.e. kicking the ball off the tee.

And there is no need to get so worked up about it folks.

A Mayo player is shown in a post above trying to knock the ball out of a keepers hand...in a league game, so don't give me that!

Hurler85 · 15-04-2015 5:03pm

This defensive football explosion will be the death of the game. It may be difficult to watch but from experience over the past two weeks, it is even worse to play against.

Had a match recently against a team that traditionally would be of a mediocre standard. When we played against them they played with 12-13 men inside their own half. Incredibly frustrating to play against and the game ended up being a draw, 1-6 to 1-6.

Now, some people may say that this was a tactically astute by the opposing team; cut out any space for runners, kick passing etc, frustrate the other team, and to be fair, it worked. Where will this end though? Change the name to handball maybe because with this type of game kick passing will be a thing of the past.

Worse still, I see it creeping into underage matches - u-12/14. Will be the total detriment of the game.

dxhound2005 · 15-04-2015 6:18pm

Hurler85 wrote: »

This defensive football explosion will be the death of the game. It may be difficult to watch but from experience over the past two weeks, it is even worse to play against.

Had a match recently against a team that traditionally would be of a mediocre standard. When we played against them they played with 12-13 men inside their own half. Incredibly frustrating to play against and the game ended up being a draw, 1-6 to 1-6.

Now, some people may say that this was a tactically astute by the opposing team; cut out any space for runners, kick passing etc, frustrate the other team, and to be fair, it worked. Where will this end though? Change the name to handball maybe because with this type of game kick passing will be a thing of the past.

Worse still, I see it creeping into underage matches - u-12/14. Will be the total detriment of the game.

How many games can you point to in this years' League or last years' Championship with scores as low as that? For every low scoring game you can find since the advent of so called blanket defence I can show you plenty more from the times before it was ever heard about. Leinster semi final 1996 Dublin 1-9 Louth 0-8, Leinster final Meath 0-10 Dublin 0-8.

I did a comparison between the Ulster Championship 1992 and 2014. More scores on average in 2014 and more goals. So if the defensive system is being set up to ensure fewer scores than in the good old days, it is failing miserably.

bucketybuck · 15-04-2015 9:41pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How many games can you point to in this years' League or last years' Championship with scores as low as that? For every low scoring game you can find since the advent of so called blanket defence I can show you plenty more from the times before it was ever heard about. Leinster semi final 1996 Dublin 1-9 Louth 0-8, Leinster final Meath 0-10 Dublin 0-8.

I did a comparison between the Ulster Championship 1992 and 2014. More scores on average in 2014 and more goals. So if the defensive system is being set up to ensure fewer scores than in the good old days, it is failing miserably.

I suspect he isn't talking about County football but club, where the lower standard will mean the defensive style is a much greater leveller between teams. Its one thing talking about senior county footballers, but should club games start having 6 point draws as the norm then you really would see young players deserting the game in their droves.

Of course, the GAA doesn't give a toss about the clubs, so wouldn't do anything about it anyway.

nice_guy80 · 15-04-2015 10:49pm

Good coaching overcomes the blanket defence.

Move the ball quicker with foot passing than they are able to set it up.

Nidgeweasel · 15-04-2015 11:21pm

Hurler85 wrote: »

This defensive football explosion will be the death of the game. It may be difficult to watch but from experience over the past two weeks, it is even worse to play against.

Had a match recently against a team that traditionally would be of a mediocre standard. When we played against them they played with 12-13 men inside their own half. Incredibly frustrating to play against and the game ended up being a draw, 1-6 to 1-6.

Now, some people may say that this was a tactically astute by the opposing team; cut out any space for runners, kick passing etc, frustrate the other team, and to be fair, it worked. Where will this end though? Change the name to handball maybe because with this type of game kick passing will be a thing of the past.

Worse still, I see it creeping into underage matches - u-12/14. Will be the total detriment of the game.

Well done the mediocre side getting a valuable point.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 16-04-2015 4:31am

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Well done the mediocre side getting a valuable point.

That's great until players get fed up having to play against and get fed up then when their manager decides the only way to beat it is to copy it.

At club level the game is meant to be fun but with the intensity of training, the dreadful fixture scheduling in a lot of counties and the defensive football that a lot of club teams play I'd imagine a lot of players are not enjoying the game as much as they used to.

EIREHotspur · 16-04-2015 10:24am

willabur wrote: »

Having said that a clear definition what constitutes a tackle would go a long way for players, referees and supporters alike. Way too many decisions can be argued either way

EXACTLY...and bring this point to it's natural conclusion.....there is NO tackle in Gaelic Football.

If County Players were pro then they could maybe bring in the compromise rules tackle...then you would see a far better game.
They are afraid to bring it in because it would lead to more injuries and they are not prepared to pay for insurance etc...

Gaelic Football now is almost as big a joke as American Football being called Football with all this handpassing 3 feet to the next player to handpass it sidewards...backwards..sidewards...forwards...backwards....I just can't watch a game anymore....bores me to tears...

I am old enough to remember Liam Mulvihill slamming english Soccer for Advertising on Players shirts...Corporate Boxes etc back in the 80s....didn't take long for him to catch on though..

Unfortunatly until you get totally rid of the old guard...bring the game totally into the new era...ditch Provincial championships and bring all Counties under one All Ireland competition...I mean Galway are now in Leinster for Hurling....so stop pussyfooting around and if your going to admit defeat with them having meaningfull games....give Kerry and Cork competition...etc...

Hurling is great because there is a fair way of someone taking the ball off an opponent...

Dirty Dingus McGee · 16-04-2015 11:36am

EIREHotspur wrote: »

EXACTLY...and bring this point to it's natural conclusion.....there is NO tackle in Gaelic Football.

If County Players were pro then they could maybe bring in the compromise rules tackle...then you would see a far better game.
They are afraid to bring it in because it would lead to more injuries and they are not prepared to pay for insurance etc...

Gaelic Football now is almost as big a joke as American Football being called Football with all this handpassing 3 feet to the next player to handpass it sidewards...backwards..sidewards...forwards...backwards....I just can't watch a game anymore....bores me to tears...

I am old enough to remember Liam Mulvihill slamming english Soccer for Advertising on Players shirts...Corporate Boxes etc back in the 80s....didn't take long for him to catch on though..

Unfortunatly until you get totally rid of the old guard...bring the game totally into the new era...ditch Provincial championships and bring all Counties under one All Ireland competition...I mean Galway are now in Leinster for Hurling....so stop pussyfooting around and if your going to admit defeat with them having meaningfull games....give Kerry and Cork competition...etc...

Hurling is great because there is a fair way of someone taking the ball off an opponent...

The Aussie rules tackle would ruin football it would kill off the skilful players in the game.Imagine how easy it would be to deal with the likes of Colm Coper if all a players had to do is haul them to the ground.

The tackle in hurling is no different than in football.You block the ball or flick it away from your oponent and a side to side shoulder charge is allowed which is the exact same as football.

If football was refereed properly and coaches thought the tackle properly and players actually tried to tackle properly there would be no issue surrounding the tackle in football.

davegrohl48 · 16-04-2015 12:49pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The Aussie rules tackle would ruin football it would kill off the skilful players in the game.Imagine how easy it would be to deal with the likes of Colm Coper if all a players had to do is haul them to the ground.

The tackle in hurling is no different than in football.You block the ball or flick it away from your oponent and a side to side shoulder charge is allowed which is the exact same as football.

If football was refereed properly and coaches thought the tackle properly and players actually tried to tackle properly there would be no issue surrounding the tackle in football.

If football was refereed as it is laid down in the rule book the level of allowable contact should match pretty much soccer and basketball.
I have no problem with that and I believe you would have a game based on skill and agility.
However you have the division of opinion where you have likes of Larry Tompkins saying that the modern game is poor and in the same interview saying that now you can hardly tackle a man.
It is hard to see how it will evolve when peoples views are so entrenched and opposed. By our rule book the game should be played by players built more like soccer players with lighter upper body and usually under 6'1".
Exception would be full forwards, full backs and midfielders.
- The barge through a defender should be a foul.
- The group tackling should be a foul as it is not aimed at the ball.
- The closed fist tackling should be a red card for a strike. (Tough luck must tackle with open hand)
- The slowing down of frees should be straight up free from 30 metres (this is a blight in all games that the Aussies sorted in their game overnight)
You can have a high scoring game full of the above problems that take away from how the game looks.
In my view we cannot get to an enjoyable season of games until the rulebook is applied in full and we move away from the levels of contact currently in the game. It would move to a game where forwards have to link up to get open as they are not allowed barge past defenders. Where defenders would have a chance of winning ball back. Where a blanket defence could not rely on group tackling. Where the players would be much smaller, agile and more skillful.

QuinDixie · 16-04-2015 2:55pm

davegrohl48 wrote: »

If football was refereed as it is laid down in the rule book the level of allowable contact should match pretty much soccer and basketball.
I have no problem with that and I believe you would have a game based on skill and agility.
However you have the division of opinion where you have likes of Larry Tompkins saying that the modern game is poor and in the same interview saying that now you can hardly tackle a man.
It is hard to see how it will evolve when peoples views are so entrenched and opposed. By our rule book the game should be played by players built more like soccer players with lighter upper body and usually under 6'1".
Exception would be full forwards, full backs and midfielders.
- The barge through a defender should be a foul.
- The group tackling should be a foul as it is not aimed at the ball.
- The closed fist tackling should be a red card for a strike. (Tough luck must tackle with open hand)
- The slowing down of frees should be straight up free from 30 metres (this is a blight in all games that the Aussies sorted in their game overnight)
You can have a high scoring game full of the above problems that take away from how the game looks.
In my view we cannot get to an enjoyable season of games until the rulebook is applied in full and we move away from the levels of contact currently in the game. It would move to a game where forwards have to link up to get open as they are not allowed barge past defenders. Where defenders would have a chance of winning ball back. Where a blanket defence could not rely on group tackling. Where the players would be much smaller, agile and more skillful.

football should be just left alone, the refs should have the whistle in their pockets.
football is a tribal game, we like the good defending, the few punches, the athleticism as much as the great scores.

Take the black card - has it made any difference, or was it just an over reaction to players being cynical towards the end of a game, something that still goes on.

wackokid · 17-04-2015 9:13pm

If that big lad from Mayo who came into the field in Limerick last year had got his hands around Reilly's neck football would be a better game now. Mass cards would take the place of Black cards.
We need proper referees, men who played the game at the highest level. Pay them well and make them accountable to a higher authority.
The present bunch of referees are bloody awful bar none. Changing the playing rules wont make a blind bit of difference to these incompetents.

harpsman · 18-04-2015 11:20pm

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Those suggesting 13 a side definitely never played a game on any sort of county standard pitch...or in North America where 13 a side is regular (or was in my day anyway!)
It would only lead to increased endurance and conditioning demands being placed on players, when in reality there is no need for it. There is ALWAYS space available on a Gaelic football field, even space inside the attacking 45. Teams not recycling the ball smartly out of blind alleys or trying to run through a wall of players in the D, or kicking stupid balls into the "blanket" zone are going to get found out, yeah. But teams who vary their game and spread the play quick enough along with having good long range kickers will be able to overcome any kind of defence.
The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right? In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.

Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.

No need for most of the rule changes being suggested and hard to believe this all comes from a league game played in a monsoon in March!

You re right about the 13 a side bit.

As for the rest of it, debatable or plain wrong in some cases.

harpsman · 18-04-2015 11:42pm

threeball wrote: »

I agree, look at 7's rugby and how dynamic that game is with the space available when compared to its parent code. Rugby would benefit from dropping two players from its code and so would we. People want to see attacking and scores and to achieve that people need space. I could see 13 aside pushing us back towards a man on man situation.

The problem with comparing it to rugby is that in rugby and gaelic football we're actually trying to encourage the opposite thing. In rugby we want less long kicks and more passing of the ball with the hands over and back across the pitch. As I said in football we're trying to encourage the opposite.

Basically none of us know exactly what would result from a 13 a side game but all Id say is theres a strong chance with more space teams would be even less likely to risk kicking the ball away when its easier to run it the length of the field.
Hence the drive for even more fitness.

ciarriaithuaidh · 19-04-2015 7:51pm

harpsman wrote: »

You re right about the 13 a side bit.

As for the rest of it, debatable or plain wrong in some cases.

Care to back that up with anything...??

harpsman · 02-05-2015 9:55pm

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Care to back that up with anything...??

The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right?
Debatable-while Donegal certainly got the most players behind the ball when defending other teams have had lower scoring averages and other teams again have committed less players to attack when in possession, hence debatable, but not necessarily wrong.

In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.
Wrong- the scores were actually 1-10, 1-11(with the goal being a consolation effort in the last minute) and 13 points.
Also Cork had a few forwards in form-O Neill, Sheehan and Kerrigan all played well, it wasn't their fault that as the game wore on Cork went back to their old habits of ponderous ball carrying and lateral hand passing.
Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.

Mayo hammered them in 2013 because Donegal were dead on their feet as has happened alot of defending champions over the years for a number of reasons, not because they pushed up on them.
And finally Kerry scored 2-9, not 15 points.

There you go.

ciarriaithuaidh · 03-05-2015 12:50am

harpsman wrote: »

The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right?
Debatable-while Donegal certainly got the most players behind the ball when defending other teams have had lower scoring averages and other teams again have committed less players to attack when in possession, hence debatable, but not necessarily wrong.

In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.
Wrong- the scores were actually 1-10, 1-11(with the goal being a consolation effort in the last minute) and 13 points.
Also Cork had a few forwards in form-O Neill, Sheehan and Kerrigan all played well, it wasn't their fault that as the game wore on Cork went back to their old habits of ponderous ball carrying and lateral hand passing.
Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.

Mayo hammered them in 2013 because Donegal were dead on their feet as has happened alot of defending champions over the years for a number of reasons, not because they pushed up on them.
And finally Kerry scored 2-9, not 15 points.

There you go.

Oh ffs..you think I didn't know what my own county scored in the final last year??! 2-9 is 15 points worth, stop being so juvenile.

And if you are debating the fact that Donegal were the most defensive team to win an All Ireland then you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Take another 2 weeks and come back with a better response if needs be.

overshoot · 03-05-2015 12:19pm

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Oh ffs..you think I didn't know what my own county scored in the final last year??! 2-9 is 15 points worth, stop being so juvenile.

And if you are debating the fact that Donegal were the most defensive team to win an All Ireland then you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Take another 2 weeks and come back with a better response if needs be.

if donegal were the most defensive team, how come when they won it in 2012 they had the highest points totals for since tyrone in 08? you never hear that mentioned?!
surely that also made them the best attacking team... lets just say best team for short?
Also you clearly have a short memory if you are going to call us the most defensive ever. You put 6pts on Tyrone in the 2003 Semi. They averaged 8 against that year... but for all their defensive work averaged 18pts for! damn these northern teams covering the 2 keys aspects to winning a game!

Both Dublin & Kerry have put higher scores on the board in the last 2 years. Donegal played the most sophisticated combination of defence and interchange of players and counter attack the game had ever seen to that point. The mediocre analysts and copy attempts just revert it to 12/13 men back. It might limit your opponent for these teams but it will not win you championships.

The game is progressing at intercounty level though, tactics move on, the AI winners will always be flavour of the month and imitated for a while. "Man for Man" is stone age stuff, it is a TEAM sport, and it appears managers are starting to realise it and utilise tactics more than ever before. We are getting the highest points totals ever in the championship with these 'defensive teams'. I wish people would give it a rest with the death of gaelic nonsense.

also to say mayo put that total on us by pushing up, its absolute horsecrap. Donegal's thin panel is well known and it was well and truly crocked. The only decent performance that year was Tyrone in the first round but it was more a measure of how bad they were. But as much as we were bad, Mayo were men possessed that day out for revenge.

shockframe · 11-05-2015 7:31pm

This is more a follow on to the complaining of the likes of Brolly in the independent and TV but better to post it here:

I personally of the opinion that Gaelic Football is actually a superb game and not anywhere near as desperate as RTE or some other outlets would have us like to believe.

Ewan Mckenna made a point recently that in 2010 the analysts went to town on the rather weak early rounds of the championship yet were practically silent on the gripping fare that followed the munster semi final replay between cork and Kerry all the way up to the all Ireland final. The fact that a game was bad early on and they take the moral high ground. The best overall championship of recent years and next to no recognition from RTE.

We are being led to believe that the 70s and 80s were some sort of magical era were everyone played the game where no ones hair fell out of place and everyone played for the fun of the game where it was all on a par with the Brazil’s of 1970. Of course the Dublin foul on Micky Ned O Sullivan and Paidi O’Se’s left fist on Denis Allen never happened.

Take Kerry for instance.For all the excellence of of the golden years hardly anyone outside of Mikey Sheehy could kick the ball with their weaker foot and they also relied on scoring goals using their hands rather than their feet for a good chunk of their 4 in a row.

Compare that to the team of the last decade who could depend on Maurice, Mike Frank, Cooper,Tommy Walsh and Declan O Sullivan to kick off both feet. Even backs like O’Mahony and Tomas could score off their weaker foot. For all Spillanes moaning about long range kicking Brian Sheehan has little trouble there.

That’s just one county. I’m sure whatever county you are from could point to as good an all round county side in 2015 than say 1985 and certainly not a good bit inferior. Put together Youtube clips of players from the modern era (Murphy, Clarke, O’Donoghue, O’Neill, Hurley, O’Connor, Brogan, Connolly, Flynn, Mcfadden,Coulter,Shine, Kilbride, Cavanagh etc) and you’d find it hard not to be impressed.

Cavan and Fermanagh in 2013 might not be the greatest game of the season but would a game between both sides in 1983 be much better.TG4 gold showed games from the past over the years and my favourite of the ones I watched was Dublin-Armagh in 2002.

Its pointless taking much notice of RTE anymore because they are looking to be offended by Football and if 99 games out of 100 were stonewall classics that one bad game would be the one to get 99% of the attention. Would they take this line with Rugby Union. Would they ‘’’’.

If scores were at lets say 35 per game the critics would moaning that there isn’t 40. If its 40 why not 45 and so on.

I don’t take too much notice of Brolly and Spillane with their you wouldn’t pay me to watch a game opinions anymore. Easy say that and still show up week in week out to collect the paycheck. If they were that offended why not take up gardening or another hobby.

For all the crying done over the sky deal they were nowhere near as negative about the game as others and even Joey Barton was raving about the 2014 semi final replay. If it was the sainted duo in RTE he was listening to he might have been turned off the game.

The championships biggest problem is that 4 or 5 counties are a good bit ahead of the rest but that’s not unique to football.Neither is a bad game. The hysterical over reaction and the hand wringing is.Unfortunately with the boundaries several teams haven’t the population to compete to the levels they would like at this time.

I find it fascinating that Brolly is moaning about low scoring games. In his 2 ulster final victories his own county scored a total of 1-15, only 3 points higher than last years total by Donegal in over twice the time.

The averages of the game are much higher. The game is faster, less predictable and just as exciting.Teams are working round the clock to prepare and deserve better than the media they have to deal with.

The only 2 RTE people I have noticed to be anyway positive of modern football are Tomas O’Se and Ciaran Whelan.

A positive I could take from the negativity is that at least the game is still attracting interest. There’ll be hundreds more articles/analysis/podcasts that will be lapped up all over the summer. If things were as bad as the ‘experts’ say this wouldn’t be happening.

Football Crisis - What's to be done?

Comments