Football Crisis - What's to be done?

keane2097

Things seem to be coming to a head in football with many people losing their minds about the defensive nature of some of the tactics being employed.

Many suggestions have been made as to how to combat it - things like limiting successive hand passes, forcing X players to remain in the attacking half etc.

Do people here agree that rules need to be introduced to change the direction the game is going in? If so what's your idea for fixing it?

My own opinion would be that refs ought to be way, way stricter on the sort of "tackling" that goes on when three or more defenders surround a guy on the ball. So much of what goes on in these situations could be pinged by refs as "not directed at the ball".

Way more frees being given against pack hunting defenders would see blanket teams fall behind quickly and force them to come out and play while not changing the rules at all.

Tristram

I don't think any changes are necessary. The game is evolving all the time. Having watched enough games from a few decades ago I would be firmly of the opinion that from the 90s on we are witnessing the highest standard of football yet.

willabur

I agree with second poster - if you look at games from back in the day there was an awful lot of dross back then also.

Having said that a clear definition what constitutes a tackle would go a long way for players, referees and supporters alike. Way too many decisions can be argued either way

Tombo2001

I think you need to look at the underlying cause.

In my view its this:
-You have counties of vastly unequal resources.
-Counties with lesser resources need to compete, to keep their players interested.
-The blanket defence is easiest way for these counties to compete.

Its as simple as that.

If you remove the blanket defence, you are strengthening the hand of a county that's already stronger.

Its the same in any other sport. When Ireland plays Germany in soccer, we don't try to play the beautiful game; we park the bus. And if you are an Ireland fan, and its nil all after 90 minutes, you'll see it as a heroic performance. Richard Dunne in Moscow. Derry vs Dublin, or whatever, is the same dynamic.

To put it differently, what other system has been shown to allow a Monaghan or Derry compete with a Kerry or Dublin.

km79

Football involving any of the ulster teams is absolutely horrible to watch . Horrible. And it's slowly creeping into most teams .
Something HAS to change . I wonder do players / forwards on these teams even enjoy it ? And 2 of those teams look likely to be relegated so what's the point ?
Anyway rules changes must be made.
I like the idea of having to keep a certain amount of players inside the opposition half but will it just end up with the middle sector being congested?
Limit on hand passes too possibly ?
The one thing that really annoys me though is the number of backward passes to the keeper by all team.
This is I couplet because of the blanket defences so will need to Be addresses in tandem with other things.
Something HAS to he done though.
People can't honestly have enjoyed the first half of Dublin Derry for example ? An awful awful advert for the game
As is the entire ulster championship.
Dublin , Mayo, Cork , Kerry etc can play with the same "intensity" ulster is lauded for without resorting to 100% negative tactics
We need change
Rant over

Redsoxfan

I don't think rule changes are necessary. No team has been truly successful using purely defensive tactics.

I do think persistent tactical fouling is an issue that should be addressed. The black card only (attempts to) deals with very obvious instances of cynical fouling on a standalone basis. This could well be possible via the existing rules but it might well require a tweak.

I think bravery and imagination from managers faced with defensive systems is the answer to overcoming them. Good coaches should relish the challenge. Players too will make their feelings known at some stage.

As long as the 'winning is everything' mentality persists, there will be 'negative' tactics employed. Changing the rules will just encourage new methods of stopping your opponent playing the game on their terms IMHO.

km79

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think you need to look at the underlying cause.

In my view its this:
-You have counties of vastly unequal resources.
-Counties with lesser resources need to compete, to keep their players interested.
-The blanket defence is easiest way for these counties to compete.

Its as simple as that.

If you remove the blanket defence, you are strengthening the hand of a county that's already stronger.

Its the same in any other sport. When Ireland plays Germany in soccer, we don't try to play the beautiful game; we park the bus. And if you are an Ireland fan, and its nil all after 90 minutes, you'll see it as a heroic performance. Richard Dunne in Moscow. Derry vs Dublin, or whatever, is the same dynamic.

To put it differently, what other system has been shown to allow a Monaghan or Derry compete with a Kerry or Dublin.

Even when Monaghan and Derry play each other they do the same thing ?
And when the chips are down in the summer they are still not competing with Dublin or Kerry . They are just ruining quarter finals as a spectacle........a few northern teams won all Ireland's in the 90s relying on just pure skill........Derry have had serious forwards for the past decade but have not utilized them.
Maybe if they had ........

Tombo2001

km79 wrote: »

Even when Monaghan and Derry play each other they do the same thing ?
And when the chips are down in the summer they are still not competing with Dublin or Kerry . They are just ruining quarter finals as a spectacle........a few northern teams won all Ireland's in the 90s relying on just pure skill........Derry have had serious forwards for the past decade but have not utilized them.
Maybe if they had ........

Donegal beat Dublin last year did they not?

Would the Donegal fans rather an expansive game and lose by 15 points?

km79

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Donegal beat Dublin last year did they not?

Would the Donegal fans rather an expansive game and lose by 15 points?

The 2 teams mentioned were Monaghan and Derry.
Donegal did beat Dublin and then lost to Kerry ..........I don't find donegal as bad to watch as the others anyway.
They battle hard at the back but spring forward fairly quickly then .
They have a better blend in their "system".
Anyway that's my last contribution.
I'm sick of our game being destroyed and think rule changes are needed

Rawhead

Looks like natural justice is sorting out the negative ****e for us.
Derry and Tyrone getting relegated from Div 1.

shrewdness

Bit unfair to be lumping Monaghan in there with Derry methinks lads. Compare the two in the league this year, the Donegal game aside, Monaghan have been in some quite good scoring games and they're in second place. Derry haven't won a game. There's a fair difference there.

Tom Joad

Football is evolving and the stakes have got higher and higher so teams have figured out a way to level the playing field a wee bit - what's the problem?

If you start tinkering with the rules, you are setting a dangerous precedent and when the next "new system" comes along will people demand changes to combat that.

People slag off the Ulster teams for their defensive football and yet the Ulster championship is the only one worth watching or that anyone outside 1 or 2 teams have a chance of winning.

Part of the problem is the absolute crap that is spouted by so called gaa analyists on RTE about the game. RTE have a formula for their sports coverage and need a Dunphy/Hook/Spillane/Brolly to get people talking - they don't have a clue about the game and hark back to some glorious bygone era where the beautiful game was played. I've watched enough of GAA gold to know that there was some awful shi'ite played back in this golden era.

I've heard Spillane crap on about Cavan on league Sunday this year and he spouted some trite cliches about us even though it was apparent that he hadn't seen any of our games this year - he even said as much.

Brolly called Cavan the black death twice - both times the week of a Cavan v Derry game and it was just wind up tactics.

Cavan and Derry in 2013 produced one of the best games of gaelic football I have ever seen on a scorcher of a day in Celtic Park - no-one outside of the few thousand that were at that game remembers it though. Yet the amount of people that trot out the spillanisms and brollyisms about puke football is phenomenal - if people could form their own opinions that would help dampen down some of the hysteria about the negative football.

Redsoxfan

Good man Tom.

ciarriaithuaidh

Tom Joad wrote: »

Football is evolving and the stakes have got higher and higher so teams have figured out a way to level the playing field a wee bit - what's the problem?

If you start tinkering with the rules, you are setting a dangerous precedent and when the next "new system" comes along will people demand changes to combat that.

People slag off the Ulster teams for their defensive football and yet the Ulster championship is the only one worth watching or that anyone outside 1 or 2 teams have a chance of winning.

Part of the problem is the absolute crap that is spouted by so called gaa analyists on RTE about the game. RTE have a formula for their sports coverage and need a Dunphy/Hook/Spillane/Brolly to get people talking - they don't have a clue about the game and hark back to some glorious bygone era where the beautiful game was played. I've watched enough of GAA gold to know that there was some awful shi'ite played back in this golden era.

I've heard Spillane crap on about Cavan on league Sunday this year and he spouted some trite cliches about us even though it was apparent that he hadn't seen any of our games this year - he even said as much.

Brolly called Cavan the black death twice - both times the week of a Cavan v Derry game and it was just wind up tactics.

Cavan and Derry in 2013 produced one of the best games of gaelic football I have ever seen on a scorcher of a day in Celtic Park - no-one outside of the few thousand that were at that game remembers it though. Yet the amount of people that trot out the spillanisms and brollyisms about puke football is phenomenal - if people could form their own opinions that would help dampen down some of the hysteria about the negative football.

I'd have to agree with this.

Look, Derry's "system" on Saturday night was crazy when you consider they had to win the game. McIver was moaning afterwards that he had no choice and that "it's not the kind of game I want to play"..well, lets see how they set up for the Ulster championship.

Gaelic Football is constantly being run down by people, yet last year produced some breathtaking games, with great open football and big scores. The 3 semi finals were the pinnacle of it:
1-16 to 1-16
3-16 to 3-13
3-14 to 0-17

Those were the scorelines from those 3 games.
All four 1/4 finals were good games aswell, albeit the Dublin v Monaghan game was very one-sided.

The final was a poor game fair enough, but I'm not about to go losing my mind over a few bad league games as some "analysts" seem to think we should do. The game is constantly evolving and that will continue.

There is talk of limiting numbers in one half or a sector of the field amongst other suggestions, but there is no way a referee or linesmen can monitor all that on top of everything else. The transitional nature of the game would make it impracticl in any case I think.

Lets keep a lid on the hysteria and review after the championship.

Redsoxfan

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

There is talk of limiting numbers in one half or a sector of the field amongst other suggestions, but there is no way a referee or linesmen can monitor all that on top of everything else. The transitional nature of the game would make it impracticl in any case I think.

This.

Jaysus, referees and other assorted officials get a hard enough time as it is. No way would they be up to enforcing the 'offside' rule as well.

bucketybuck

No rule changes are needed, we just need referees to enforce the existing rules.

Hey ref, five men standing in a circle slapping the ball carrier is not a tackle and never was. The minute one of those five tacklers touches anywhere but the ball it should immediately be called as a free, but refs won't make the call.

CatFromHue

Until people stop going/watching the games the GAA can say there's nothing wrong or that they can do.

castletownman

One of the biggest ironies in modern Irish sport is people bemoaning the negative nature of Gaelic football and saying how boring it is to watch, yet fawn over the exploits of the Irish rugby team. Although without starting a "which sport is better" debate, there does require a modicum of attacking talent to implement a defensive gameplan AND win consistently.

So basically what I'm trying to say is I blame the explosion of the popularity of rugby on the ultra-defensive approach increasingly applied by more counties.

klairondavis

All sports thrive on competition. Gaelic football moreso than most. Ulster football gets a lot of criticism from neutrals. Some of it is justified. However, the local crowds will flock to watch the Ulster Championship. It might not be pretty a lot of the time but almost every county believes they have a chance and that's what gives it meaning and relevance.

The obvious contrast is with Leinster football. I was at the Laois v Kildare match on Saturday evening and although the conditions were poor it was a fairly open and entertaining game. Despite this the attendance was disappointing. When both teams were competitive 15 years ago a local derby between the two would have drawn twice the crowd that was there on Saturday night. I've noticed a huge drop off in the Kildare support in recent years and it's a similar story up in Meath. They're two of the traditionally best supported counties but many matchgoers have given up because they don't see any hope of success in Leinster. On the other side of the coin Dublin's support has also dropped off. Between 1996 and 2001, Dublin couldn't win a Leinster Championship yet they would draw much bigger crowds for provincial games than they do now. A lot of fans probably think what's the point in paying €30 to watch a turkey shoot. I suspect if more Leinster teams adopted much more negative tactics there would probably be an increase in attendances because the championship would be a lot more competitive. There's no point in being easy on the eye if you're getting hammered out the gate whenever you meet a good team.

A few small tweaks to the rules would make a big difference to football:

All kickouts having to travel beyond the 45 would be a good starting point. Most teams are happy to surrender possession from a short kickout because it allows them to pull men back and pack their defence. It would also promote high fielding which is one of the great spectacles of our game and is in danger of becoming a lost art.

Give referees the power to advance the ball thirty metres rather than thirteen. It's a pity this proposal wasn't passed not so long ago. Teams strategically foul in their own half of the field to give themselves time to get their forwards back into defensive positions. The amount of quick frees that are stopped by opposition players is staggering. They'll think twice if the ball is brought forward by the referees and suddenly it becomes a scoreable free. It works very well in Australian Rules Football.

Only allow two men tackle an opponent at the one time. One of the ugliest sights in the game is when one of these rucks develop where the man in possession is surrounded by three or four opponents. Referees interpretations of these rucks are often inconsistent, particularly at club level. It is a great source of frustration for players and spectators. When there are more than two tacklers, surely they can't all be tackling the ball legally?

Abolish the black card and trial the sin bin again instead. Granted this would probably be scuppered because of the difficulties implementing it at club level. The thinking behind the black card is sound enough but it isn't really enough of a deterrent. Reducing a team to fourteen players for seven or eight minutes goes a bit further. Also widen the scope beyond the so-called 'cynical fouls' to include persistent fouling. Multiple frees against you, take a break for seven or eight minutes.

Prop Joe

klairondavis wrote: »

1 . All kickouts having to travel beyond the 45 would be a good starting point.

2 . Give referees the power to advance the ball thirty metres rather than thirteen.

3. Only allow two men tackle an opponent at the one time.

4.Abolish the black card and trial the sin bin again instead.

I like some of these ideas,The kickout would be a good one but maybe say it must pass 30 yards to begin with,There would be an issue in games where a severe wind is blowing.

Increasing the distance a ball can be carried forward for dissent & time wasting would be a brill move.

Don't know how to implement only two men allowed to tackle,You could not stop a third or forth player to come in and just stand his ground

Sin Bin would be a smashing addition,Dont think it would be that hard to implement at club level

I would love a rule where 3 players must stay within there own half (There would be a 10 second amnesty for players contesting a break or such) but it would make for a far better spectacle.I think it could be implemented by ref's fairly easily.It would also let teams continue to operate blanket defenses if they choose,But i think it would lead to higher quality of games

Finally the best tactic of all would the GAA put into place serious development resources into a large amount of counties both Hurling & football

Nidgeweasel

A distinction has to be made here between a team throwing together a defensive screen in a lead up to a game with no clue as to what they're doing and others like Donegal who have a set system.

That Antrim game in the summer for example, that really was atrocious. Mainly because it was badly implemented and poorly executed. This is where the "15 men behind the ball" comes in where teams who go into a game having tried this for probably two weeks in training will invariably will come a cropper.

That's key. 15 men being totally negative simply will not get you over the line. Personally, that should be enough of a deterrent and probably will be once everyone wakes up.

You have to contrast that type of performance with the likes of Donegal, who still get universally slaughtered and derided. Labelling Donegal as a one trick pony etc, 15 men behind the ball is the ultimate in lazy analysis. Yes the team is defensively minded and they shut down all avenues to strangle the opposition but their attacking play when they turnover the ball in numbers with speed, power and invention ought to be lauded.

The thing about the two 'negative' teams too. I'm not so sure that's cause for concern. The Ulster final last year was utterly compelling and absorbing and the commitment of the 30 on the field was out of this world.

I don't think the game is in dire straits, improvements can be made definitely in terms of time keeping and tackling.

Variety is the spice of life though and there is more than one way to skin a cat. I found it just as intriguing and enjoyable watching Donegal v Monaghan in that ulster final as I did watching Dublin v Kerry in the semi the other year.

Maybe it's just me. I just like watching good football.

tmq

klairondavis wrote: »

Give referees the power to advance the ball thirty metres rather than thirteen. It's a pity this proposal wasn't passed not so long ago. Teams strategically foul in their own half of the field to give themselves time to get their forwards back into defensive positions. The amount of quick frees that are stopped by opposition players is staggering. They'll think twice if the ball is brought forward by the referees and suddenly it becomes a scoreable free. It works very well in Australian Rules Football.

As a recent follower of GAA (ten years), I agree with this point in particular. The time wasting after a foul by standing in the way, or throwing the ball away, preventing the free from being taken quickly is one of the most cynical and frustrating parts of the game. The threat of being penalised 13(?) metres is not enough to stop the behaviour clearly. This was a problem in the AFL too, until they changed the 15 metre penalty to a 50 metre penalty... problem solved immediately.

As for the overall defensive style, I'm less qualified to offer an opinion, but in aussie rules the "our game is being ruined by defensive tactics" debate comes up every 5 years or so. Teams evolve, tactics change, everyone moves on.

(I realise there are many differences between the two sports, but they have enough similarities to learn from each other.)

klairondavis

Prop Joe wrote: »

I like some of these ideas,The kickout would be a good one but maybe say it must pass 30 yards to begin with,There would be an issue in games where a severe wind is blowing.

That's true. Perhaps all kickouts could be taken from the 21 like was the case after a score up until a few years ago. Surely most keepers would easily be able to kick it 24 metres to clear the 45 even in a gale.

MayoAreMagic

The issue with football is that blocking up the goals with bodies is the most effective way of stopping an opponent. One simple way to change this is to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team in group tackle situations. That would have a massive effect as it would promote good tackling, and punish this 'offside' type of tackling where the guy is totally surrounded - how can you be tackling someone from behind? That removes this spoiling ethos that is so prevalent now.

Another thing I would do is make 2 teams out of Co. Dublin. You would be removing a team that is too strong, and replacing it with 2 very strong sides - both capable of being in the shake-up for sam within a few years. Both teams could also fill croke park with fans, not to mention the higher percentage of Dublin footballers that would get a chance at inter county - there must be loads of lads who get passed over. It would be positive for the everyone involved, including Dublin.

Tombo2001

klairondavis wrote: »

All sports thrive on competition. Gaelic football moreso than most. Ulster football gets a lot of criticism from neutrals. Some of it is justified. However, the local crowds will flock to watch the Ulster Championship. It might not be pretty a lot of the time but almost every county believes they have a chance and that's what gives it meaning and relevance.
.

My view is that your tweaks are fairly significant changes, and importantly, that it would make the sport less competitive. E.g. if Derry hadn't been able to surround a Dublin attacker with three players, the Dub would have just run through them. Is that a desirable outcome?

nice_guy80

Two referees.

Proper punishments for cynical behaviour - stopping quick frees, throwing away ball etc

Enforce the current rules properly

klairondavis

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My view is that your tweaks are fairly significant changes, and importantly, that it would make the sport less competitive. E.g. if Derry hadn't been able to surround a Dublin attacker with three players, the Dub would have just run through them. Is that a desirable outcome?

Given some of the suggestions that are proposed when this debate is raised (13 a side etc, penalising consecutive handpasses etc.) I would say they are fairly minor.

The two I would most like to see implemented are the kickout and referees being empowered to advance the ball further. Limiting the short kickout would mean teams should resort to a more traditional shape for every restart.

I think a lot of the issue surrounding the tackle is that it is not being executed correctly because these rucks are allowed to develop. If they were penalised, players would have to concentrate more on tackling the ball accurately which is a rare sight nowadays. Two defenders v one attacker in possession still puts the attacker in a disadvantaged position. There are only a small percentage of forwards out there who can kick accurately when they are under pressure from two players. It also means there are less free men for the attacking team because there aren't four or five backs surrounding the man in possession.

Tom Joad

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

You have to contrast that type of performance with the likes of Donegal, who still get universally slaughtered and derided. Labelling Donegal as a one trick pony etc, 15 men behind the ball is the ultimate in lazy analysis. Yes the team is defensively minded and they shut down all avenues to strangle the opposition but their attacking play when they turnover the ball in numbers with speed, power and invention ought to be lauded.

Would agree with this and it's this kind of thing I was driving at - to label Donegal as 15 behind the ball/ultra defensive/ puke football really gets my goat as what Donegal did shows every other county that you can come from relative obscurity and become competitive rather than been seen as the demise of the game.

In their early days of the system Donegal were probably a wee bit too reliant on stiffling the opposition but then adapted the system and took it to the next level as soon as they got the basics right and added the attacking element into it. Of course it helps having really gifted forwards like Murphy and McBrearty to get the scores.

The rise of Donegal in recent years has to be one of the most refreshing stories in GAA but instead people allowed themselves to buy into the crap spouted by Spillane and Brolly and others that this was the end of the world.

Any team can use the system but it will only get them so far - Westmeath done it against Cavan last Saturday night and it was tough to watch but no-one bats an eyelid - an Ulster team do it and there is mass hysteria.

Cavan are a good example of how you can build on the Tyrone/Donegal model. For years we were playing nice football and has some nice light forward but we were getting decimated by teams like Cork/Kildare who brought a bit of physicality to the game - we were simply being blown away.

You can't suddenly produce 6ft 5'' 15 stone lads from nowhere so a system was developed and adapated to suit our players - that system was sold at all levels from minor to under 21 to senior level - suddenly we are competitive again and start winning things at underage level and had a decent run in the championship in 2013.

Now everyone knows that we need to do a Donegal and start to adapt a more offensive method of playing while keeping it tight at the back if we are to take the next step and the management are trying to do that with players breaking at pace to support the attack as unfortunately we simply don't have a Murphy or McBrearty knocking about Cavan. That's how you adapt the system to take it to the next level.

But simply put would I rather watch us play nice football and get beat by 15 points or get labelled the black death and have a decent run in the championship -I know which I'd pick every day of the week.

Equally someday soon someone like Eamonn Fitzmaurice or Jim Gavin will figure out how to beat the defensive system and every county will try and do that to various levels until the next Tyrone/Donegal comes along and we'll have the same discussion all over again.

keane2097

Some great responses in this thread. Happy to see a lot of people agree that the problem is being greatly overstated.

I think limiting the number of successive hand passes or forcing X players to stay in one half or other would be a huge overreaction and would change the game way too much. The law of unintended consequences hangs over those two ideas like the sword of Damocles.

I also think kickouts to beyond the 45 is a pretty bad idea. Seems to me like teams inclined to be defensive anyway would love it. It's encouraging them to bring their whole forward line back the field, they know the ball has to be kicked out into the middle of a big mass of defenders despite the whole full back line left scratching their arse inside. Short kick outs are a defensive team's punishment for bringing all their players back into defence, force long kickouts and half forwards will drop back to midfield, full forwards will drop back to the 45 at least.

Agree with all those talking about the issue with group tackling, it seems an easy fix to some of the problems we're seeing.

RoscommonTom

Two refs is a good idea, if things keep goinvt he way they are itll ruin football, all the birdies are doing it and youve lots of other counties trying to do it now, even Kerry are at the negative stuff, look at last years final to see how bad its gone

Nidgeweasel

Another thig that must be mentioned too, for all the hysteria over defensive teams.

Had that dublin team been allowed to run riot like they could do and rack up a few all Irelands on the spin, be interesting to see then how many people would be perfectly agreeable to a defensive shut out to get rid of them!