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Football Crisis - What's to be done?
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I watched alot of 13 a side with players of a good standard and I much preferred it to 15 a side.WesternZulu wrote: »I'd be all for a 13-a-side game. I think that it should at least be tested in the league.
When you think that the mark has been recently given a go in the league it would not be that radical to reduce the numbers on a team by 2.
The mark and other rules take away from the expressive nature of gaelic football whereas I feel that 13-a-side would enhance it.
13 a side will result in weaker counties being more competitive. They dont have the player pool to be able to fill out a 26 man squad for 15 a side football.
Every team even Dublin are heavily reliant on a few key players. In weaker counties it suits better if those few key men represent a higher proportion of your outfield players.0 -
13 a side has a lot of potential upsides, but I think it's a bit of a dramatic step at this stage.0
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13 a side has a lot of potential upsides, but I think it's a bit of a dramatic step at this stage.
I don't think it;'s that drastic a step It is by far the easiest rule change to implement and the only potential negative to it is that some coahes would use it as an excuse to run the sh1te out of players in training (however I think at intercounty level it's almost impossible for teams to do more training).
It would reward footpassing which the current game doesn't in my opinion as it will leave more space on the field for the ball to be kickied into.
Aslo I always felt that after a man was sent off games tended to get better because of the extra space on the field.
I don't think it is that drastic a step it's not as if the playing numbers are set in stone and Gaelic Football has to be a 15 a side game.Up to u-12 level I played 13 a side football and the game was 21 and then 17 a side in the early years of the association.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »I don't think it;'s that drastic a step It is by far the easiest rule change to implement and the only potential negative to it is that some coahes would use it as an excuse to run the sh1te out of players in training (however I think at intercounty level it's almost impossible for teams to do more training).
It would reward footpassing which the current game doesn't in my opinion as it will leave more space on the field for the ball to be kickied into.
Aslo I always felt that after a man was sent off games tended to get better because of the extra space on the field.
I don't think it is that drastic a step it's not as if the playing numbers are set in stone and Gaelic Football has to be a 15 a side game.Up to u-12 level I played 13 a side football and the game was 21 and then 17 a side in the early years of the association.
I agree, look at 7's rugby and how dynamic that game is with the space available when compared to its parent code. Rugby would benefit from dropping two players from its code and so would we. People want to see attacking and scores and to achieve that people need space. I could see 13 aside pushing us back towards a man on man situation.0 -
I agree that 13 a side would be the least drastic change that might change the game for 'the better'.0
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HighKing33 wrote: »In practice it works the opposite way - a bunch of kids from a school in Letterkenny entered the young scientists competition with a project analysing 13-a-side football compared to 15-a-side. There were more kickpasses in the 13-a-side format, also more scores and more entertainment value.
The logic is simple really, more space between the lines makes the kick-pass the way to go. Telling players exactly where they can and can't stand on the field of play is very restrictive, a player should be able to run where he wants to.
Hmmm. Dont know how much value that study is in predicting what would happen in senior intercounty championship.
Ive already addressed your last point which you ve repeated for some reason.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
Ulster is somewhat competitive because most of the teams play the blanket defence and it gives teams a chance but only Donegal and maybe Monaghan (on a really good day and a lot of luck) would come close to challenging for the all ireland currently.
There is so much wrong with that statement it's hard to know where to start but for starters.
Ulster football has been very competitive for the last 30 years long before Pat Spillane converted the masses to "blanket defences"
5 of the 9 Ulster counties have won at least 1 All-Ireland in the last 23 years mostly before "blanket defences"
Down, playing open football came from nowhere to appear in All-Ireland in 2010.
All of the Ulster counties bar one have made it to the quarter finals since the backdoor was introduced.
In my opinion 7 of the Ulster counties could produce an All-Ireland winning team within 5 years given the right conditions.
The amount of sweeping generalisations and lack of knowledge about Ulster football is breathtaking.0 -
Those suggesting 13 a side definitely never played a game on any sort of county standard pitch...or in North America where 13 a side is regular (or was in my day anyway!)
It would only lead to increased endurance and conditioning demands being placed on players, when in reality there is no need for it. There is ALWAYS space available on a Gaelic football field, even space inside the attacking 45. Teams not recycling the ball smartly out of blind alleys or trying to run through a wall of players in the D, or kicking stupid balls into the "blanket" zone are going to get found out, yeah. But teams who vary their game and spread the play quick enough along with having good long range kickers will be able to overcome any kind of defence.
The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right? In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.
Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.
No need for most of the rule changes being suggested and hard to believe this all comes from a league game played in a monsoon in March!0 -
ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »Those suggesting 13 a side definitely never played a game on any sort of county standard pitch...or in North America where 13 a side is regular (or was in my day anyway!)
It would only lead to increased endurance and conditioning demands being placed on players, when in reality there is no need for it. There is ALWAYS space available on a Gaelic football field, even space inside the attacking 45. Teams not recycling the ball smartly out of blind alleys or trying to run through a wall of players in the D, or kicking stupid balls into the "blanket" zone are going to get found out, yeah. But teams who vary their game and spread the play quick enough along with having good long range kickers will be able to overcome any kind of defence.
The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right? In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.
Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.
No need for most of the rule changes being suggested and hard to believe this all comes from a league game played in a monsoon in March!
How can you cite the Donegal team of 2012 as the most defensive of all time then quote scores from 2014?
And what pray tell is an intercounty standard pitch, theres a far cry between Croke Park and Aughrim or Pearse stadium. I know a ton of club pitches bigger and better quality than most county grounds.
No amount of conditioning will cover the space in a 13 a side game even if the defence falls deep so teams will be forced to move the ball quicker and over longer distances as running it consistently won't be an option0 -
There is so much wrong with that statement it's hard to know where to start but for starters.
Ulster football has been very competitive for the last 30 years long before Pat Spillane converted the masses to "blanket defences"
5 of the 9 Ulster counties have won at least 1 All-Ireland in the last 23 years mostly before "blanket defences"
Down, playing open football came from nowhere to appear in All-Ireland in 2010.
All of the Ulster counties bar one have made it to the quarter finals since the backdoor was introduced.
In my opinion 7 of the Ulster counties could produce an All-Ireland winning team within 5 years given the right conditions.
The amount of sweeping generalisations and lack of knowledge about Ulster football is breathtaking.
Since 2000 there have been 4 winners of Ulster.
Since 2000 there have been 5 winners of Leinster.
Kildare were the width of a crossbar away from beating Down in 2010 .
Ulster is more competitive now than the other provinces but a large part of that is due to the generally defensive nature of the games in Ulster and before you say that they aren't defensive the majority of games In the Ulster championship I have watched in the 5 or 6 years have been defensive dog fights with very little open play.
My opinions have nothing to do with Pat Spillane, I absolutely despise him as a pundit but the Ulster championship since I've been watching football has always been a lot more dogged than the other provinces.
It's very doubtful 6 or 7 teams from Ulster would get close to winning the all ireland in the next few years.There are barely that many teams capable of challenging throughout Ireland in a period of time like that never mind in one province.
Tyrone have been going nowhere since 2008.
Cavan don't look to really be pushing on from their relative success at underage level and those under 21 teams didn't seem to have really top class individual players to suggest it would transfer to senior level.
Derry usually only play well in the league and flop when it comes to the championship.
Down haven't really done much since 2010 (this year being the exception) and haven't had much at underage level for a long time.
Monaghan and Donegal look to be making strides in recent years and they'd be the only teams I'd fancy to do anything.0 -
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How can you cite the Donegal team of 2012 as the most defensive of all time then quote scores from 2014?
And what pray tell is an intercounty standard pitch, theres a far cry between Croke Park and Aughrim or Pearse stadium. I know a ton of club pitches bigger and better quality than most county grounds.
No amount of conditioning will cover the space in a 13 a side game even if the defence falls deep so teams will be forced to move the ball quicker and over longer distances as running it consistently won't be an option
Are you saying there was a more defensive team than Donegal 2012 that has won an All Ireland?..Who?
For the record I have no problem with that Donegal victory..It was fairly admirable actually, coming from the low of 2010 to being champions in just 2 years.
I quoted the scores Donegal conceded in their last 3 games of 2012 in case you were confused.
"County standard" pitch was possibly the wrong phrase, but there aren't too many pitches that are identical size to Croke Park, Fitzgerald stadium etc..
As for your point that teams will be forced to kick the ball more..No they won't. More space, means the fitter teams will have more space to play one-two's and rely on their endurance rather than risk kicking the ball. You also seem to forget that the job of an inter-county corner back (tough enough marking a Brogan, O'Donoghue or Colm O'Neill as it is) will becoming almost impossible in such a scenario. Young fellas watching will have zero meas in becoming a defender. Teams will attempt to counteract this obvious weakness by double marking or playing a blanket defence...and then your back to square one.
There is very little wrong with Gaelic Football right now. Few inconsistencies in refereeing. We could have done with the 30m penalty for delaying a free or dissent being brought in to stop that stuff..apart from that, am I alone in wanting the game we love left alone? Fairly sick of most of the "comment" and analysis from armchair pundits recently.0 -
davegrohl48 wrote: »I watched alot of 13 a side with players of a good standard and I much preferred it to 15 a side.
13 a side will result in weaker counties being more competitive. They dont have the player pool to be able to fill out a 26 man squad for 15 a side football.
Every team even Dublin are heavily reliant on a few key players. In weaker counties it suits better if those few key men represent a higher proportion of your outfield players.
If Leitrim could just line out with 13 they'd be a shoe in for the all Ireland.0 -
Just play football the way the Tipperary under 21s played against Cork in the under 21 Munster Final the other night and the game is fine.
Totally opposed to any team being less than 15 players as the squad puts in a great effort and if they think they will not get a reasonable chance of a starting place more and more of them will be attracted to Rugby.
On a predictive note Dublin, Cork and Kerry will dominate this years championship as they are already well on the way of showing how to undermine the blanket defence and as the season progresses they will become more expert at it, no harm that the game throws up a challenge from time to time, some counties will thrive on how to handle it, while other counties will fall by the wayside.The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.
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Just play football the way the Tipperary under 21s played against Cork in the under 21 Munster Final the other night and the game is fine.
Totally opposed to any team being less than 15 players as the squad puts in a great effort and if they think they will not get a reasonable chance of a starting place more and more of them will be attracted to Rugby.
On a predictive note Dublin, Cork and Kerry will dominate this years championship as they are already well on the way of showing how to undermine the blanket defence and as the season progresses they will become more expert at it, no harm that the game throws up a challenge from time to time, some counties will thrive on how to handle it, while other counties will fall by the wayside.
But there is no incentive to play in an attacking manner currently at senior level that is why there is an issue.
u-21 football is miles away from senior and is played a fairly naive manner which is great to watch but not a reflection on the game at the highest level.0 -
Hmmm. Dont know how much value that study is in predicting what would happen in senior intercounty championship.
Ive already addressed your last point which you ve repeated for some reason.
Well, the young scientists' project was based on an analysis of senior club football so surely there is some relevance there. But, crucially, the last serious appraisal of the rules of the game was overseen by the FDC during the nineties and they strongly recommended formatting the game as a 13-a-side field game.0 -
I don't think the problem is so much the excessive hand passing, but the speed of the build up of the attack which leads to teams being able to mass a blanket defense, and thus excessive hand passing to counteract it. I think if some rules were tweaked to allow a faster build up of attack, we might see less of the hand pass.
Maybe something like allowing a direct pick off the ground, allowing players to bounce the ball twice before they have to tap it, and allow an extra two steps before you have to bounce or tap the ball allowing lads to run further. That should help in speeding up the game a slight bit.
I would like to see those rule changes tried in a pre season competition to see if they work, if they don't then fair enough. It's the pedantic build up and safety first nature of football that's the problem, not the skills, so counteract the slowness by introducing rules to allow faster movement of the ball and allow players more scope for getting forward with the ball at speed.0 -
Not what I said. But Derry might be a lot closer than currently given their forwards selection.Nidgeweasel wrote: »If Leitrim could just line out with 13 they'd be a shoe in for the all Ireland.0 -
Todays Cork v Donegal match so far shows why 13 a side would work .
Both teams have a lot of men in defence yet it's been very high scoring match so far as although the defences are crowded the game is only being played a reasonable bit off championship pace.As a result the players have a little more space and time on the ball.
You get a 13 a side game at full intensity and there would probably be a similar effect and games in general would be looser with more entertaining football being played.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »Todays Cork v Donegal match so far shows why 13 a side would work .
Both teams have a lot of men in defence yet it's been very high scoring match so far as although the defences are crowded the game is only being played a reasonable bit off championship pace.As a result the players have a little more space and time on the ball.
You get a 13 a side game at full intensity and there would probably be a similar effect and games in general would be looser with more entertaining football being played.
If you want to go down that road I could counter by saying that Dublin v Monaghan showed why 15 v 15 isn't a problem. Both teams playing defensively, yet there were 33 scores, some excellent pacey football and some great performances by forwards. Most players didn't play the ball into the blanket, but found the space and used it.
The second game had an intensity that was much closer to championship level aswell. However, in either case, league games are no basis for any argument on drastic changes to the game. Championship football is what it's all about and if last years championship is matched or even improved upon this year, then maybe those looking for crazy changes to rules will be quietened somewhat..here's hoping!0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »If It favours the attacking team I don't really have a problem with players taking the ball a couple of yards closer to the goal to take a free.It favours attacking teams which is what most people want and it should provide an extra incentive not to foul if free taker make free's easier for themselves.
It's a very minor breaking of the rules and anyway referees and linesmen can easily spot it and tell the free taker to bring the ball back,so it's a fairly easy thing to deal with a minor issue within the game(I don't think it even is an issue for the majority of people) so I don't think the GAA should be focusing on fixing things that aren't really a problem.
Sorry but you need to be pulled up on this awful logic. While it maybe a minor issue, it is still very much an issue and a clear one at that. Your attitude is the one I dislike most about the GAA - the sort of half-arsed, unprofessional attitude towards rules and their importance.
The fact that the linesmen and refs can spot this issue easily is the whole reason why it's then so annoying, i.e. that they choose not to do anything about it. There are a number of these little issues that, if they wanted, the GAA could sort out in the morning but they are too conservative to do so.0 -
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Both games yesterday showed that the game is doing alright.
Some great scores and attractive football.
What do people expect from football, some people seem to gave this bizarre idea that football is poor to watch or it was better in the day.
I think the standards in football have never been as high.
Last 4 years have been dominated by Kerry, Mayo, Donegal and Dublin and I believe we are going through a golden era and I expect the standard to improve.
I think we should not tinker too much with a great game, you would swear great defending has no place in modern football.0 -
When a sport played badly, in a negative way, people start giving out and blaming rules. Yes, we can get games like the recent Dublin v Derry game, but under the exact same rules we can get games like the Dublin v Kerry semi-final in 2013. So it is not always the rules that are at fault or even referees that don't properly implement them. A bad game stems first from the tactics and style of play of the teams. That is not always determined by rules.0
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Sorry but you need to be pulled up on this awful logic. While it maybe a minor issue, it is still very much an issue and a clear one at that. Your attitude is the one I dislike most about the GAA - the sort of half-arsed, unprofessional attitude towards rules and their importance.
The fact that the linesmen and refs can spot this issue easily is the whole reason why it's then so annoying, i.e. that they choose not to do anything about it. There are a number of these little issues that, if they wanted, the GAA could sort out in the morning but they are too conservative to do so.
The rules are important but linesmen and referees are human and therefore you cannot expect perfection from them.As a result I ( and I suspect many others) don't really mind if very minor things like the position a free is taken from is not really focused on by the referee.The position a free is taken from (which is what you are focusing on) is not a big issue in the game and it does not alter the entertainment value of the game.It may be wrong to take a free from a slightly incorrect position but it isn't really a big deal and frankly if it favours the attacking team than I don't really mind.
The GAA have focussed a lot on minor nitpicking rule changes like the stupid rule that all line balls had to be taken from behind the sideline even though there was barely enough space in a lot of grounds to take a sideline ball properly without stepping onto the field of play.
I'd rather the referee's focus on the real issues in the game like incessant tactical fouling and jersey pulling that goes on than asking a free taker to move a ball back by one yard.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »The rules are important but linesmen and referees are human and therefore you cannot expect perfection from them.As a result I ( and I suspect many others) don't really mind if very minor things like the position a free is taken from is not really focused on by the referee.The position a free is taken from (which is what you are focusing on) is not a big issue in the game and it does not alter the entertainment value of the game.It may be wrong to take a free from a slightly incorrect position but it isn't really a big deal and frankly if it favours the attacking team than I don't really mind.
The GAA have focused a lot on minor nitpicking rule changes like the stupid rule that all line balls had to be taken from behind the sideline even though there was barely enough space in a lot of grounds to take a sideline ball properly without stepping onto the field of play.
I'd rather the referee's focus on the real issues in the game like incessant tactical fouling and jersey pulling that goes on than asking a free taker to move a ball back by one yard.
It's not about perfection, it's about enforcing the rules. I don't think I've ever seen a ref pull up a free-taker for not taking the free in the correct position (one in a score-able position that is). But in nearly every game forwards are "stealing" metres and they are not being pulled up on it. The most obvious example I can remember was last years AI semi final replay in Limerick where BJ Keane on more than one occasion managed to get at least 4-5 metres closer to the goal making a not-too-difficult, yet pressure free, into a tap over. And yes they can make a massive difference, even if it's a minor issue overall.
The line-ball rule is exactly the type of thing that they should be doing more of. It used to be farcical how far onto the pitch players would come to kick a line-ball, but fair play to the GAA, they sorted it out. As you say, they need to sort out (badly) the cynical slowing down of frees after they have been conceded, amongst other things.
The reason I bang on about this is that, in my opinion, the players and management at County and Senior club level approach the game in a professional manner but the Administrators have an amateur approach to the whole thing.0 -
Cheating is cheating is cheating and if a player scores a free 5 or 10 yards closer to goal and of course reducing the angle................then he should be booked and the free reversed.
Nobody is talking about frees out or sidelines FFS but ............a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.....................that's you Dingus0 -
That particular free was given right in near the goals for Kieran Donaghy being dragged off the ball, right as it was being played, the referee played advantage and let the play develop. The ball landed out near the sideline, where Donaghy and Cafferkey challenged for the ball. At this point it was clear that no advantage was accruing and the referee gave the free to Kerry from the spot of the foul, where BJK tapped the ball over.It's not about perfection, it's about enforcing the rules. I don't think I've ever seen a ref pull up a free-taker for not taking the free in the correct position (one in a score-able position that is). But in nearly every game forwards are "stealing" metres and they are not being pulled up on it. The most obvious example I can remember was last years AI semi final replay in Limerick where BJ Keane on more than one occasion managed to get at least 4-5 metres closer to the goal making a not-too-difficult, yet pressure free, into a tap over. And yes they can make a massive difference, even if it's a minor issue overall.
Tommy Carr was co-commentator at the time and surprise surprise he got it wrong and went on a big rant about how it was never a free etc.
BJK only had one more free and it was right in front of the posts, where he was fouled. Again the ever wise Tommy Carr went on about how it wasn't a free, but the replay showed the Boyle clearly lifted the knee into his chest.
There are hundreds of examples, plenty involving Kerrymen i'm sure, but BJK can't really be accused of it in that game.
I do agree with you on the cynical slowing down of frees (which has creeped into Kerry's game a lot recently, and was on show in that Mayo game from both sides.) An Aussie rules style 50m penalty would stop that in a heartbeat I feel.0 -
That particular free was given right in near the goals for Kieran Donaghy being dragged off the ball, right as it was being played, the referee played advantage and let the play develop. The ball landed out near the sideline, where Donaghy and Cafferkey challenged for the ball. At this point it was clear that no advantage was accruing and the referee gave the free to Kerry from the spot of the foul, where BJK tapped the ball over.
Tommy Carr was co-commentator at the time and surprise surprise he got it wrong and went on a big rant about how it was never a free etc.
BJK only had one more free and it was right in front of the posts, where he was fouled. Again the ever wise Tommy Carr went on about how it wasn't a free, but the replay showed the Boyle clearly lifted the knee into his chest.
There are hundreds of examples, plenty involving Kerrymen i'm sure, but BJK can't really be accused of it in that game.
I do agree with you on the cynical slowing down of frees (which has creeped into Kerry's game a lot recently, and was on show in that Mayo game from both sides.) An Aussie rules style 50m penalty would stop that in a heartbeat I feel.
Ah here, I'm not getting into a Kerry v Mayo debate or the merits of the frees in extra time in that game. That wasn't my point - it was that free takers, from all counties, are not taking frees from the correct positions and it's an issue that is easily rectifiable by the GAA , if they so wish.0 -
Ah here, I'm not getting into a Kerry v Mayo debate or the merits of the frees in extra time in that game. That wasn't my point - it was that free takers, from all counties, are not taking frees from the correct positions and it's an issue that is easily rectifiable by the GAA , if they so wish.
I think it's fair enough to expect to be corrected when incorrectly singling out an individual player tbh.0 -
I think it's fair enough to expect to be corrected when incorrectly singling out an individual player tbh.
Ok then, since you asked so nicely! Keane stole a rake of yards in the 1st half of extra time in the replay, clear as day. It's not slight on his character, you'd be an idiot not to take extra yards if you could, but it needs to be clamped down.0 -
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Ok then, since you asked so nicely! Keane stole a rake of yards in the 1st half of extra time in the replay, clear as day. It's not slight on his character, you'd be an idiot not to take extra yards if you could, but it needs to be clamped down.
DDC explained that what you're saying happened isn't correct.0
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