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Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    gozunda wrote: »
    Yes I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on that alright - good start.

    First time you've seen that Gozunda is it? Now you have had a chance to read it in full, here is a post I made earlier about it



    the cases that were ruled on regarding the denial of services

    The first two applicants’ cases concerned the wearing of a cross and chain in the workplace (an airline, and a hospital, respectively).

    the third applicant Ms Ladele, a civil registrar at the London Borough of Islington, refused to be designated a registrar of civil partnerships. This refusal was in direct violation of the Borough’s ‘Dignity for All’ policy,

    Does the printer have a "dignity for all" policy that they breeched?




    The fourth applicant Mr McFarlane was employed as a councillor in a private sex therapy and relationship counselling service, a member of the British Association for Sexual and Relationship Therapy (BASRT). In violation of the service’s equal opportunity policy, and the BASRT’s Code of Ethics,



    Does the printer have a "equal opportunity policy", and the "BASRT’s Code of Ethics"?


    The Court, as in the third applicant’s case, rejected the applicant’s claim of religious discrimination, deeming as legitimate the employer’s policy of providing counselling services without discrimination.



    If they have no policy, the ECHR or anyone else can't find them in breech of it> which is the reason in these cases their dismissal was upheld.

    There isn't a face palm big enough


    Linky: http://www.iccl.ie/news/2013/01/15/european-court-crucifix-case-draws-%E2%80%9Cbright-line%E2%80%9D-between-religious-freedom-and-discrimination-says-iccl.html[/QUOTE]



    What policy did the printers have?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    bjork wrote: »
    First time you've seen that Gozunda is it? Now you have had a chance to read it in full, here is a post I made earlier about it
    the cases that were ruled on regarding the denial of services
    The first two applicants’ cases concerned the wearing of a cross and chain in the workplace (an airline, and a hospital, respectively).the third applicant Ms Ladele, a civil registrar at the London Borough of Islington, refused to be designated a registrar of civil partnerships. This refusal was in direct violation of the Borough’s ‘Dignity for All’ policy,Does the printer have a "dignity for all" policy that they breeched?
    The fourth applicant Mr McFarlane was employed as a councillor in a private sex therapy and relationship counselling service, a member of the British Association for Sexual and Relationship Therapy (BASRT). In violation of the service’s equal opportunity policy, and the BASRT’s Code of Ethics,
    Does the printer have a "equal opportunity policy", and the "BASRT’s Code of Ethics"?The Court, as in the third applicant’s case, rejected the applicant’s claim of religious discrimination, deeming as legitimate the employer’s policy of providing counselling services without discrimination
    If they have no policy, the ECHR or anyone else can't find them in breech of it> which is the reason in these cases their dismissal was upheld
    There isn't a face palm big enough
    [/Bhttp://www.iccl.ie/news/2013/01/15/european-court-crucifix-case-draws-%E2%80%9Cbright-line%E2%80%9D-between-religious-freedom-and-discrimination-says-iccl.html
    What policy did the printers have?[/quote]

    You wish to have a go or do wish to discuss the last text you posted? Which?

    If you have any relevant thoughts do go ahead do state them. From the above there is no point whatsoever that makes any sense Imo. I have no idea what you are on about. So no I can't help you there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    reprise wrote: »
    Which is the point we go full circle, so I will explain it all again.

    The printers don't print same sex wedding invitations for people who are straight, gay, old, young, black, orange, disabled, bald, etc etc.

    OK

    But you must surely be aware that one of the 9 grounds in the Equal Status Act is civil status.

    Effectively this means that if a good or service is provided to a couple in a heterosexual marriage then to refuse to provide the same good or service to a couple in a civil partnership because they are in a civil partnership is in fact discrimination under the Equal Status Acts 2000-2014.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    gozunda wrote: »
    You wish to have a go or do wish to discuss the last text you posted? Which?

    If you have any relevant thoughts do go ahead do state them. From the above there is no point from you that makes any sense Imo

    1) the decision was upheld because it was found that the employee was in direct breech of company policy which they agreed to.
    2) It was not determined that all companies have to sell their services to everyone and it was that they can refuse to do so if they have a conscientious objection
    3) This printer has a conscientious objection
    4) Once again it was not because they refused to provide the service to homosexuals, it was because they breached their company policy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OK

    But you must surely be aware that one of the 9 grounds in the Equal Status Act is civil status.

    Effectively this means that if a good or service is provided to a couple in a heterosexual marriage then to refuse to provide the same good or service to a couple in a civil partnership because they are in a civil partnership is in fact discrimination under the Equal Status Acts 2000-2014.

    Yes/No

    That's the problem, This case does not seem to fit any of the 9 as stated in many posts.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    OK

    But you must surely be aware that one of the 9 grounds in the Equal Status Act is civil status.

    Effectively this means that if a good or service is provided to a couple in a heterosexual marriage then to refuse to provide the same good or service to a couple in a civil partnership because they are in a civil partnership is in fact discrimination under the Equal Status Acts 2000-2014.

    Joey, the question I asked is as follows:
    A straight man goes into Beulah printers tomorrow and asks for same sex wedding invitations to be printed.

    The printers say they do not provide that service.

    Is this discrimination? If so, against who?

    If not, why not?

    It is a very straightforward question. You did not answer it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Actually that isn't what people said about homosexuals. They criminalised homosexual intimacy whether it was behind closed doors or not, not to mention a myriad of other ills foisted upon homosexuals from society. Its not that long ago either so look it up.

    Ah get over it, it's legal now ffs ......... some people are never happy! :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    A civil ceremony, which the individuals involved happened to refer to as a wedding. That difference is redundant in this instance however as the printer in question has openly said

    'there are differences between civil partnerships and religious weddings, however, one thing I think we would all agree on, is that they both are public declarations of an intended life long commitment. The Bible teaches clearly that marriage is between a man and a woman so, for homosexual people to make that commitment is contrary to God’s word and we could not support it'

    https://www.facebook.com/BeulahPrint?fref=nf

    Gosh golly that seems almost like they specifically refused 'homosexual people' and then admitted it.

    You're looking at it from biased eyes .......... they cannot and will not support homosexual marriage by providing services to facilitate a union of two people of the same sex ......... nothing new about that stance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,496 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Ah get over it, it's legal now ffs ......... some people are never happy! :rolleyes:

    yeah, god shut up gays! so demanding, black people forgot slavery so why shouldn't we forget this!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Within the confines of the law like every right and freedom. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

    What you seem to find difficult to grasp is the fact that many people don't believe the printer broke any laws ........... just because you say they did doesn't mean they did.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    yeah, god shut up gays! so demanding, black people forgot slavery so why shouldn't we forget this!

    There were an awful lot of Irish slaves> we seem to have forgotten it


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    bjork wrote: »
    1) the decision was upheld because it was found that the employee was in direct breech of company policy which they agreed to.
    2) It was not determined that all companies have to sell their services to everyone and it was that they can refuse to do so if they have a conscientious objection
    3) This printer has a conscientious objection
    4) Once again it was not because they refused to provide the service to homosexuals, it was because they breached their company policy

    Bjork Seriously I think you are misreading the report.

    From your points above can you explain

    1) which case are you referring to?

    2) which companies ditto?

    3) are you referring to the Drogheda printer?

    4) where does it say that for the relevant cases?


    Here is a summary of the cases that were presented before the EHR court.

    A brief summary of the four applicants’ cases:

    1) The first two applicants’ cases concerned the wearing of a cross and chain in the workplace (an airline, and a hospital, respectively).

    The Court found in favour of the first applicant (Ms Eweida), ruling that the prohibition on wearing a cross and chain in the course of her duties at British Airways constituted a breach of her religious freedom, given that “there [was] no evidence of any real encroachment on the interests of others (para. 95).”

    2) In the case of the second applicant (Chaplin), the Court found that, though wearing the cross and chain was a legitimate manifestation of religious belief, in this case the workplace restriction was legitimate, given that she worked in a hospital ward where such apparel was generally prohibited for health and safety reasons, and to avoid cross-contamination.

    The second two applicants’ cases concerned the provision of services to same-sex couples.

    3) Following the introduction of Civil Partnership in the UK, the third applicant Ms Ladele, a civil registrar at the London Borough of Islington, refused to be designated a registrar of civil partnerships. This refusal was in direct violation of the Borough’s ‘Dignity for All’ policy, which committed the Borough and its staff to provide services to all members of the community, irrespective of age, gender, disability, faith, race, nationality, sexuality, health or income. Ms Ladele’s refusal culminated in the loss of her job. The Court found, however, that the Borough acted in a legitimate manner in applying a policy of equal opportunities, aimed at “securing the rights of others”, and that obliging Ms Ladele to comply with this policy was both legitimate and proportionate.

    4) The fourth applicant Mr McFarlane was employed as a councillor in a private sex therapy and relationship counselling service, a member of the British Association for Sexual and Relationship Therapy (BASRT). In violation of the service’s equal opportunity policy, and the BASRT’s Code of Ethics, Mr McFarlane refused to commit himself to providing psycho-sexual counselling to same-sex couples, despite being aware that the company had a policy of not filtering clients. This refusal culminated in the applicant’s dismissal. The Court, as in the third applicant’s case, rejected the applicant’s claim of religious discrimination, deeming as legitimate the employer’s policy of providing counselling services without discrimination.

    Now for the purposes of comparison I am refering only to cases to 3 & 4 which the court found against the defendants with regard to their refusal to the provision of services to same-sex couples and rejected their claim of religious discrimination.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Ah get over it, it's legal now ffs ......... some people are never happy! :rolleyes:

    cram it.

    Its still in living memory for most. I am glad you didn't have to put up with it, but don't go around telling people how to feel about what you haven't experienced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    and an ellipsis is still only three dots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    yeah, god shut up gays! so demanding, black people forgot slavery so why shouldn't we forget this!

    Forget what exactly ......... we all know what slavery did to black people ......... are you really trying to equate being a homosexual in Ireland with what black slaves had to endure??
    How can anybody take that comparison seriously ......... pathetic :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Ah get over it, it's legal now ffs ......... some people are never happy! :rolleyes:


    Unbelievable. :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    cram it.

    Its still in living memory for most. I am glad you didn't have to put up with it, but don't go around telling people how to feel about what you haven't experienced.

    It is in my living memory yet I am willing to bet that neither jobbridge4life or yourself were alive the last time there was a prosecution or at a time when gay bars or saunas were not trading openly. I distinctly remember the laws being seen as very much antiquated and defunct.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Forget what exactly ......... we all know what slavery did to black people ......... are you really trying to equate being a homosexual in Ireland with what black slaves had to endure??
    How can anybody take that comparison seriously ......... pathetic :rolleyes:

    We have already had Rosa Parks mentioned in the same breath....


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    bjork wrote: »
    There were an awful lot of Irish slaves> we seem to have forgotten it

    With that logic Next time you have to attend a funeral don't because of all the recent deaths in Syria ....


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    reprise wrote: »
    It is in my living memory yet I am willing to bet that neither jobbridge4life or yourself were alive the last time there was a prosecution or at a time when gay bars or saunas were not trading openly. I distinctly remember the laws being seen as very much antiquated and defunct.

    No. I do remember physical and emotional abuse as a child and a teenager. I believe things are improving, but hearing some straight dude say again how good we have it is nauseating.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    gozunda wrote: »
    Unbelievable. :mad:

    Gozunda, I am now asking for the third time if you would enter this debate on the same terms as everyone else and give me an answer to my question:

    A straight man goes into Beulah printers tomorrow and asks for same sex wedding invitations to be printed.

    The printers say they do not provide that service.

    Is this discrimination? If so, against who?

    If not, why not?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    No. I do remember physical and emotional abuse as a child and a teenager. I believe things are improving, but hearing some straight dude say again how good we have it is nauseating.

    No different to many people who are not gay/lesbian for example. Bulling is not unique. I was bullied pretty bad in primary school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    gozunda wrote: »
    Bjork Seriously I think you are misreading the report.

    From your points above can you explain

    1) which case are you referring to?

    2) which companies ditto?

    3) are you referring to the Drogheda printer?

    4) where does it say that for the relevant cases?


    Here is a summary of the cases that were presented before the EHR court.




    Now for the purposes of comparison I am refering only to cases to 3 & 4 which the court found against the defendants with regard to their refusal to the provision of services to same-sex couples and rejected their claim of religious discrimination.

    Yes
    Yes
    Yes
    Here
    http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-115881


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    No. I do remember physical and emotional abuse as a child and a teenager. I believe things are improving, but hearing some straight dude say again how good we have it is nauseating.

    I said nothing of the sort. But then again, having words placed in my mouth is par for the course. Shame I am forbidden from returning the favour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    No. I do remember physical and emotional abuse as a child and a teenager. I believe things are improving, but hearing some straight dude say again how good we have it is nauseating.

    Hearing some gay dude comparing himself to an African American Slave is vomit-inducing .......


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,496 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Forget what exactly ......... we all know what slavery did to black people ......... are you really trying to equate being a homosexual in Ireland with what black slaves had to endure??
    How can anybody take that comparison seriously ......... pathetic :rolleyes:

    Obviously treatment of black slaves was worse.. but the marginalisation of both groups throughout history post slavery is certainly comparable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    gozunda wrote: »
    With that logic Next time you have to attend a funeral don't because of all the recent deaths in Syria ....

    Ah, Gozunda you popped back up their nicely while avoiding the question you asked me to clarify

    HELLO :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Obviously treatment of black slaves was worse.. but the marginalisation of both groups throughout history post slavery is certainly comparable.

    Oh being a Black Slave in the Southern States of America was worse than being a homosexual in Ireland was it .......... thank you :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Obviously treatment of black slaves was worse.. but the marginalisation of both groups throughout history post slavery is certainly comparable.

    Really ? When were gay people not allowed to vote or had to sit in certain parts or use different bathrooms. Or hung or any of the other horrible things that happened to blacks in the USA. People really need a bit of perspective.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Oh being a Black Slave in the Southern States of America was worse than being a homosexual in Ireland was it .......... thank you :rolleyes:

    The guy himself admitted nothing like this ever happened him before and that is why he was so devastated

    Just like the black slaves


This discussion has been closed.
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