Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

Ace2007 · 10-03-2015 11:42PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

They are not policy, they are policy 'proposals' and as such subject to discussion and change. You should know this before claims.

So when they say they will scrape the water charges and property tax, these are subject to change and they may not actually do that?

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 11:49PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

They are not policy, they are policy 'proposals' and as such subject to discussion and change.

Semantics.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 11:50PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

So when they say they will scrape the water charges and property tax, these are subject to change and they may not actually do that?

That's what he is saying.

frankbrett · 10-03-2015 11:54PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

So when they say they will scrape the water charges and property tax, these are subject to change and they may not actually do that?

Don't forget the permanently recyclable wealth tax, which will save €800m in year a, then when further savings are needed in year b, this will once again deliver a further €800m of savings, even though they've already 'banked' the savings in the previous years budget

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-73-per-cent-tax-1717283-Oct2014/

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 11:59PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

So when they say they will scrape the water charges and property tax, these are subject to change and they may not actually do that?

I presume so. All parties do this, what is with the shock horror? I am wondering about the level of knowledge about how it all works here on Boards tbh.

RecordStraight · 11-03-2015 12:00AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I presume so. All parties do this, what i with the shock horro? I am wondering about the level of knowledge about how it all works here on Boards tbh.

Yes, we are all very stupid compared to you. Fortunately you are here to tell us that.

marienbad · 11-03-2015 12:07AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I presume so. All parties do this, what is with the shock horror? I am wondering about the level of knowledge about how it all works here on Boards tbh.

So broken promises just like everyone else then ? I though you had a problem with that Happyman ?

RecordStraight · 11-03-2015 12:16AM

marienbad wrote: »

So broken promises just like everyone else then ? I though you had a problem with that Happyman ?

Ah here, they have to decide what the promises are first before they can break them. Nobody here can figure out what the hell their policy even is.

Ace2007 · 11-03-2015 12:18AM

frankbrett wrote: »

Don't forget the permanently recyclable wealth tax, which will save €800m in year a, then when further savings are needed in year b, this will once again deliver a further €800m of savings, even though they've already 'banked' the savings in the previous years budget

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-73-per-cent-tax-1717283-Oct2014/

the famous wealth tax that has never been independently costed,2 years ago Pearse acknowledge that the entire SF proposed budget had been independently costed, except the wealth tax part - the part that is suppose to provide all the answers. - Strange that isn't it?

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 12:34AM

marienbad wrote: »

So broken promises just like everyone else then ? I though you had a problem with that Happyman ?

'promises' will be made when an election campaign gets under way. When or if they get into government 'policy' is implemented.

marienbad · 11-03-2015 12:44AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

'promises' will be made when an election campaign gets under way. When or if they get into government 'policy' is implemented.

Ah Happyman Why is Michael Noonan looking for a bit of flexibility from the EU ? To have some goodies to give away !

An election campaign is well underway !

Ace2007 · 11-03-2015 12:45AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

'promises' will be made when an election campaign gets under way. When or if they get into government 'policy' is implemented.

Just for the record when does this campaign get under way?
They are pointing to opinion polls already.

RecordStraight · 11-03-2015 12:49AM

marienbad wrote: »

Ah Happyman Why is Michael Noonan looking for a bit of flexibility from the EU ? To have some goodies to give away !

Marvellous. You have to love Irish auction politics, but you get the government you deserve. If the voters took a long-term view of our economy and society, the politicians would have to do the same.

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 12:56AM

marienbad wrote: »

Ah Happyman Why is Michael Noonan looking for a bit of flexibility from the EU ? To have some goodies to give away !

An election campaign is well underway !

Ace2007 wrote: »

Just for the record when does this campaign get under way?
They are pointing to opinion polls already.

Here is the PDF I was asked for earlier (the one with a 150,000 cap)

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Go to page 2, the first white one...at the top see 'Key PROPOSALS' not, 'Key POLICY'

Google Sinn Fein Budget and you will also see the word 'PROPOSAL'.

When I was going to school 'proposal' meant something entirely different to 'policy'

An election has not been called to my knowledge although I was out to the toilet there for a while.

Ace2007 · 11-03-2015 01:00AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Here is the PDF I was asked for earlier (the one with a 150,000 cap)

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Go to page 2, the first white one...at the top see 'Key PROPOSALS' not, 'Key POLICY'

Google Sinn Fein Budget and you will also see the word 'PROPOSAL'.

When I was going to school 'proposal' meant something entirely different to 'policy'

An election has not been called to my knowledge although I was out to the toilet there for a while.

Well obv the budget is proposal, as they aren't in government, but like i mention before for an unknown reason have not gotten their wealth tax idea independently costed - can you explain why this is?

RecordStraight · 11-03-2015 01:01AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Go to page 2, the first white one...at the top see 'Key PROPOSALS' not, 'Key POLICY'

Google Sinn Fein Budget and you will also see the word 'PROPOSAL'.

When I was going to school 'proposal' meant something entirely different to 'policy'

An election has not been called to my knowledge although I was out to the toilet there for a while.

Perhaps the Google dictionary can help:

policy1
ˈpɒlɪsi/
noun
noun: policy; plural noun: policies
a course or principle of action adopted or proposed by an organization or individual.
"the government's controversial economic policies"

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 01:05AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Well obv the budget is proposal, as they aren't in government, but like i mention before for an unknown reason have not gotten their wealth tax idea independently costed - can you explain why this is?

No. I am not a member of the party. But, while I haven't read it I thought their budget submission was tested by the Oireachtas committee? Could be wrong about that though.

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 01:08AM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Perhaps the Google dictionary can help:

Which is the initial distinction I made. 'Proposed Policy...not 'Adopted Policy' they will do the adopting when they need to implement policy, i.e. when in government.

marienbad · 11-03-2015 01:10AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Here is the PDF I was asked for earlier (the one with a 150,000 cap)

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Go to page 2, the first white one...at the top see 'Key PROPOSALS' not, 'Key POLICY'

Google Sinn Fein Budget and you will also see the word 'PROPOSAL'.

When I was going to school 'proposal' meant something entirely different to 'policy'

An election has not been called to my knowledge although I was out to the toilet there for a while.

Must have been a poor school Happyman

Come on though , they are all politicians and any consideration, policy, proposal, motion, strategy, blueprint, programme , whatever all amount to the same thing and all have an inbuilt credible deniability factor.

It is amusing when posters think SF are any better (or worse) in their communications than the others.

Ace2007 · 11-03-2015 01:10AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Here is the PDF I was asked for earlier (the one with a 150,000 cap)

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Go to page 2, the first white one...at the top see 'Key PROPOSALS' not, 'Key POLICY'

Google Sinn Fein Budget and you will also see the word 'PROPOSAL'.

When I was going to school 'proposal' meant something entirely different to 'policy'

An election has not been called to my knowledge although I was out to the toilet there for a while.

On reading that document in full, i point out a few important parts - you may have missed:

Irish hospital consultants earn €250,000 per annum for a nominal 33-hour-week, so a cap of 150k - is going to see them losing 100k???

Sinn Féin pledges to renegotiate the contracts of agreements with both the GP and hospital consultant professions. By removing the perverse incentives that currently exist for both the selection and treatment of patients, Sinn Féin will ensure that Ireland can afford to train and employ the medical consultants and general practitioners that it so badly needs to bring the country up to OECD averages. Sinn Féin pledges:

The introduction of charges for medical consultants in public hospitals to cover the cost of hospital staff, technology and other resources utilised for their private practice.

The introduction of a new public-only consultant contract – capping the salaries of medical consultants at €150,000.

The introduction of a public-only contract for GPs – capping salaries at €150,000.

from reading the above, i don't see their room for renegotiating as SF point out, it's basically saying if your on 250k a year, we are cutting this to 150k.

But they clearly say "new public-only consultant contract". Are they going to break legally binding contracts and then force consultants to sign new contracts?

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 01:18AM

marienbad wrote: »

Must have been a poor school Happyman

Come on though , they are all politicians and any consideration, policy, proposal, motion, strategy, blueprint, programme , whatever all amount to the same thing and all have an inbuilt credible deniability factor.

It is amusing when posters think SF are any better (or worse) in their communications than the others.

I agree, and already pointed out that they ALL do this.

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 01:20AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

On reading that document in full, i point out a few important parts - you may have missed:

Irish hospital consultants earn €250,000 per annum for a nominal 33-hour-week, so a cap of 150k - is going to see them losing 100k???

from reading the above, i don't see their room for renegotiating as SF point out, it's basically saying if your on 250k a year, we are cutting this to 150k.

But they clearly say "new public-only consultant contract". Are they going to break legally binding contracts and then force consultants to sign new contracts?

I didn't realise the doc was from 2011 and it has been changed, probably best to wait until Rockantsy gets back to the thread with updated info. And again, I am not a SF spokesman so I cannot clarify anything.

Ace2007 · 11-03-2015 01:23AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

No. I am not a member of the party. But, while I haven't read it I thought their budget submission was tested by the Oireachtas committee? Could be wrong about that though.

Everything except the wealth tax was verified independently.
It was removed from their budget submission for 2 years as was not tested.

This link is a bit old but why bring up an idea in the first place without having it costed.

This is a little newer.

Now whatever about the Ins and outs on why it hasn't been costed, unless it has been independently verified - then they can put any value in the proposals and claim that it works.

rockatansky · 11-03-2015 01:27AM

No response yet!

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 01:37AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Everything except the wealth tax was verified independently.
It was removed from their budget submission for 2 years as was not tested.

For a reason, they didn't have the data as the CSO hadn't started collating it.

This link is a bit old but why bring up an idea in the first place without having it costed.

From what I can see, because it would bring in an undisputed figure of between 400 and 800 million.

This is a little newer.

Now whatever about the Ins and outs on why it hasn't been costed, unless it has been independently verified - then they can put any value in the proposals and claim that it works.

True.

*and I'm away to bed in case RS loses his patience again

frankbrett · 11-03-2015 01:42AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Everything except the wealth tax was verified independently.
It was removed from their budget submission for 2 years as was not tested.

This link is a bit old but why bring up an idea in the first place without having it costed.

This is a little newer.

Now whatever about the Ins and outs on why it hasn't been costed, unless it has been independently verified - then they can put any value in the proposals and claim that it works.

Crucially, as the second link points out, those measures that have been costed are done on a standalone basis, with individual savings for each measure tallied and aggregated into a supposed overall saving. for example, an increase in income tax will likely reduce revenue from transaction taxes but this would not be captured by simplistic proposals such as 'measures A, B and C raise €500m each so we can cut €1.5bn elsewhere'.

clear thinking · 11-03-2015 01:44AM

At risk of tipping off SF this is an easy one. Increase public sector pay - i.e. these consultants, - so the net take home pay is the same. The higher tax taken in by revenue would fund the higher wages, I'm sure they've done the maths..... ...meanwhile in the private sector, that's where it will actually bite - SF don't care as the people affected don't vote for them.

FreudianSlippers · 11-03-2015 02:37PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, value them as people not commodities.

I believe that in a country of this size and economy that between 100,000 and 150,000 is the upper limitof what any PS should be paid. Nobody should be paid less than 40,000 as I believe (and I may be wrong) that is what is required to live a half decent existence presently.

They're not being paid to be people, they're being paid to do vastly different jobs - one is clearly worth multiples of the other.

FreudianSlippers · 11-03-2015 02:39PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

So you are arguing that when Sinn Fein talk about a 100k pay cap across the Public Sector, they mean only some parts of the public sector? If this is the case, they should really make this clear - I've never heard this expressed by any Sinn Fein representative.

(incidentally, it is nice to come across someone willing to argue SF's corner without the usual mud-slinging tactics)

They are clearly talking about a cap in the public sector and the government coming in to force reductions in the private sector.

Happyman42 · 11-03-2015 02:44PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They're not being paid to be people, they're being paid to do vastly different jobs - one is clearly worth multiples of the other.

It is a job of 'work', if you value it at multiples higher than somebody in a clerical job, (so that one can live comfortably and well and the other can't make ends meet) that is up to you, you can top up your surgeon's or doctor's wage. I don't, I believe anybody who works should be paid enough to live comfortably on.

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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