Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

FreudianSlippers

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I disagree, I think the idea is workable, the numbers might need to be adjusted.

Can you provide any evidence to support this? I'd love to see some of the numbers behind the SF plan.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

The public sector is not the private sector - are you suggesting that when hospitals expend their budgets or the Guards expend theirs that they should just shut up shop and turn people away or head home?

Say there's a major incident this evening and the hospitals get slammed, the Guards and Fire Service have turn out in numbers and the City Council has to activate it's emergency plan - all that has to be paid for and it has a budgetary impact - if, towards the end of the year, they find they've expended their budgets because they had to deal with a major incident should they just stop......

.....or maybe they should profile their budgets and stop dealing with incidents once a certain cost level has been reached.



yes, you could, but I would still retain the capacity to add an extra euro to my income - if there was a salary cap I couldn't.

Have you ever herd of Zeno's paradox?

Yes you could earn an extra euro and in the next budget I up a levy and take it from you.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I do not have the stats but here is an article from the Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-highest-paid-in-the-world-1.1850847

I strongly suggest you take the time to read over the last few pages - gross pay and net pay are two totally different things, and there's not much point in being well paid at the gross salary level if the cost of living is eroding your disposable income.

It's already been well covered in the thread. I don't proposed to re-tread old ground.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Have you ever herd of Zeno's paradox?

Yes you could earn an extra euro and in the next budget I up a levy and take it from you.

Zeno's paradox - the immovable object versus the irresistible force?

I'm no sure how that's relevant to the economics behind marginal taxation - but, yeah, go for it

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

The public sector is not the private sector - are you suggesting that when hospitals expend their budgets or the Guards expend theirs that they should just shut up shop and turn people away or head home?

Say there's a major incident this evening and the hospitals get slammed, the Guards and Fire Service have turn out in numbers and the City Council has to activate it's emergency plan - all that has to be paid for and it has a budgetary impact - if, towards the end of the year, they find they've expended their budgets because they had to deal with a major incident should they just stop......

.....or maybe they should profile their budgets and stop dealing with incidents once a certain cost level has been reached.



yes, you could, but I would still retain the capacity to add an extra euro to my income - if there was a salary cap I couldn't.

Your argument is one-sided.

You think if a department does not need all of their budget on any given year they will want to hand any of it back?

Also I am not against pumping money into infrastructure but paying consultants and various people at the top extortionate salaries I am against.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

Zeno's paradox - the immovable object versus the irresistible force?

I'm no sure how that's relevant to the economics behind marginal taxation - but, yeah, go for it

Yeah I should of been specific Zeno had a few paradox's.

Achilles and the tortoise is a little more fitting

Godge

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

We are a country at breaking point.

No we are not. We are the fastest growing economy in Europe. That is the fact.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

I strongly suggest you take the time to read over the last few pages - gross pay and net pay are two totally different things, and there's not much point in being well paid at the gross salary level if the cost of living is eroding your disposable income.

It's already been well covered in the thread. I don't proposed to re-tread old ground.

Again you are not making an arguement here.
And if anything you are making the same argument I am making.

We have adjusted our entire financial infrastruction to facilitate the over inflated salaries this country has managed to churn out in the last 20 years...

The idea to cap or cut is unthinkable... So we are just taxing the sh1t out of everything.

Salaries need to be cut or capped at the top, then perhaps we can lower tax instread of chasing the tortoise.

Zeno's paradox

ShowMeTheCash

Godge wrote: »

No we are not. We are the fastest growing economy in Europe. That is the fact.

I love these stats!

Take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Now look at our debt vrs our GDP, now look at everyone elses.

Yeah we are doing fine!

Godge

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I love these stats!

Take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Now look at our debt vrs our GDP, now look at everyone elses.

Yeah we are doing fine!

Yeah, look at that. A large part of that is debt held by companies in the IFSC. If our debt was really 1,008% of GDP, we wouldn't be functioning as a country.

Luxembourg at 3,443% of GDP is three times worse off by your reckoning. How come that country isn't in immediate danger of collapse?

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Again you are not making an arguement here.
And if anything you are making the same argument I am making.

We have adjusted our entire financial infrastruction to facilitate the over inflated salaries this country has managed to churn out in the last 20 years...

The idea to cap or cut is unthinkable... So we are just taxing the sh1t out of everything.

Salaries need to be cut or capped at the top, then perhaps we can lower tax instread of chasing the tortoise.

Zeno's paradox

Yeah, still not seeing what Zeno's 'Achilles and the tortoise' paradox had to do with SF health policy and consultants' salary.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I love these stats!

Take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Now look at our debt vrs our GDP, now look at everyone elses.

Yeah we are doing fine!

Again, perhaps it's just me but I'm not sure what this proves except that the country is having to carry historically high burdens of debt.

We are managing.

ShowMeTheCash

Godge wrote: »

Yeah, look at that. A large part of that is debt held by companies in the IFSC. If our debt was really 1,008% of GDP, we wouldn't be functioning as a country.

Luxembourg at 3,443% of GDP is three times worse off by your reckoning. How come that country isn't in immediate danger of collapse?

The only country with a caveat is Luxembourg. Luxembourg is a net creditor country.

But you are right maybe the ship is no longer sinking but the idea that we are now in a better place is laughable our infrastructure is a mess we are paying taxes through the nose and no one really wants to work here no matter what salary you want to through at them, but hey let's bang on about some stats on that we are the fastest growing economy in europe!

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, perhaps it's just me but I'm not sure what this proves except that the country is having to carry historically high burdens of debt.

We are managing.

I agree is proves nothing, I simply pointed it out as saying we are the fasting growing economy in europe or looking at these stats does changes the situations we are in or really mean anything. We could pull out all sorts of stats and try and make an argument.

Also, let's not be completely thick, the mess we are in due to all the factors of the boom and bust, we would be as a country in a much better state if we did not have such a burden of debt that's just basic math.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I agree is proves nothing, I simply pointed it out as saying we are the fasting growing economy in europe or looking at these stats does changes the situations we are in or really mean anything. We could pull out all sorts of stats and try and make an argument.

Also, let's not be completely thick, the mess we are in due to all the factors of the boom and bust, we would be as a country in a much better state if we did not have such a burden of debt that's just basic math.

If the economy is growing we earn not only the means to pay down our debt but we also generate the balances that get us to the required deficit levels, opening up the scope for more flexibility on government spending.

We'll also see some inflation - which is a good way to reduce the value of debt over the medium to long term.

Our fiscal situation is improving and, subject to their not being an external shock, it will continue to improve.

SF's policies, including their nebulous, uncosted health policy, would stop our progress pretty much dead in it's tracks - which why ultimately I think that if / when they get into power there'll be a huge fudge on them.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah, still not seeing what Zeno's 'Achilles and the tortoise' paradox had to do with SF health policy and consultants' salary.

I dare not draw a similarity again.

High salaries, state is trying to make up a defisit.
We higher taxes, salaries move, we higher taxes again, we re-adjust, we add levy's etc etc....

I draw a similarity to Zeno's paradox where by Achilles is chasing the tortiose but he has an inital deficit to make up, when he makes up the inital deficit he see the tortise has move a little futher, so he makes the additional deficit, upon making up the deficit again he see the tortise has moved a little more and so on and so forth the paradox being if you can make the deficit smaller and smaller then achilles will never catch the tortise.

My point increasing taxes over and over is not going to fix this issue.

Maybe try and not take everything litterally and think a little laterally.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

If the economy is growing we earn not only the means to pay down our debt but we also generate the balances that get us to the required deficit levels, opening up the scope for more flexibility on government spending.

We'll also see some inflation - which is a good way to reduce the value of debt over the medium to long term.

Our fiscal situation is improving and, subject to their not being an external shock, it will continue to improve.

SF's policies, including their nebulous, uncosted health policy, would stop our progress pretty much dead in it's tracks - which why ultimately I think that if / when they get into power there'll be a huge fudge on them.

I dissagree.

I think this country just wants to get back to making the same mistakes of the past and really learn nothing from the last 10 years.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I dare not draw a similarity again.

Ah go on - do!

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

High salaries, state is trying to make up a defisit.
We higher taxes, salaries move, we higher taxes again, we re-adjust, we add levy's etc etc....

I draw a similarity to Zeno's paradox where by Achilles is chasing the tortiose but he has an inital deficit to make up, when he makes up the inital deficit he see the tortise has move a little futher, so he makes the additional deficit, upon making up the deficit again he see the tortise has moved a little more and so on and so forth the paradox being if you can make the deficit smaller and smaller then achilles will never catch the tortise.

My point increasing taxes over and over is not going to fix this issue.

Maybe try and not take everything litterally and think a little laterally.

But economies don't behave in this way and salaries and income taxes are not the relevant variables. Deficits get wiped out all the time, and they brought into existence to - it's not a closed system.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I dissagree.

I think this country just wants to get back to making the same mistakes of the past and really learn nothing from the last 10 years.

Well you're entitled to disagree, but the data doesn't lie.....

General government surplus/deficit as a % of GDP......



It's getting there, slowly, but it's getting there.

And I agree we'd be fools to repeat the mistakes of the latter part of the boom - but at the same time we shouldn't look to make a whole new set of mistakes.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah go on - do!



But economies don't behave in this way and salaries and income taxes are not the relevant variables. Deficits get wiped out all the time, and they brought into existence to - it's not a closed system.

And neither does math Achillies would of course caught the tortoise!

People can very easily say "That would not work, the whole system will collapse!!"

I am in favour of a bold and radical move aposed to procrastination.

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

Well you're entitled to disagree, but the data doesn't lie.....

General government surplus/deficit as a % of GDP......



It's getting there, slowly, but it's getting there.

And I agree we'd be fools to repeat the mistakes of the latter part of the boom - but at the same time we shouldn't look to make a whole new set of mistakes.

I would agree with that thinking.
We may differ on what we think are good or perhaps bad ideas.

Jawgap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I would agree with that thinking.
We may differ on what we think are good or perhaps bad ideas.

Which thinking?

That SF policies would represent a whole new set of mistakes that we've not made before?

ShowMeTheCash

Jawgap wrote: »

Which thinking?

That SF policies would represent a whole new set of mistakes that we've not made before?

No that we should not make the same mistake of the past...

This eclipses better be impressive!