Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

RecordStraight

Sinn Fein promises to cap public sector salaries at €100,000.

Mod: Updated policies can be found here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94728477#post94728477

Amongst our proposals are the introduction of a third rate of income tax of 48% on income over €100,000, the introduction of a 1% wealth tax on assets valued at over €1 million, the standardisation of all discretionary tax reliefs, the capping of public sector salaries at €100,000, increases of 10% in both Capital Gains and Capital Acquisitions taxes, and a cut in the salaries of government Ministers, TD's and Senators. We completely oppose the introduction of the property tax and water charges.

As we know, consultants in our already very stretched health service earn in excess of 200k per year from their public sector roles. Even many GPs will be earning well over 100k.

The obvious consequence of the cap will be a mass exodus of doctors and consultants from the Irish health system to other countries where they can earn twice or three times as much, and the impossibility of recruiting qualified people into vacant positions from abroad.

This will obviously result in the complete collapse of the Irish health system. Presumably the brainy people at the top in Sinn Fein know this and do not care, or else they didn't realise this and are less than competent. Or else they do realise it, but it's just another populist lie that they are trotting out to buy votes. I really don't see another explanation.

Timberrrrrrrr

We completely oppose the introduction of the property tax and water charges.

Yet they don't state that they would reverse them. As for a cap of 100k? Unrealistic and unworkable.

RecordStraight

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

As for a cap of 100k? Unrealistic and unworkable.

Indeed, which makes me wonder why they plan to introduce it. As I said, it either comes down to gross mismanagement (they don't realise the consequences), gross cynicism (they do realise the consequences, but don't care) or gross populism (they do realise the consequences, but it's only a manifesto lie to win votes).

JacquesDeLad

Tumbleweed will start blowing through this thread shortly.

Deafening silence.

Sinn Fein has nothing to offer this country.

RecordStraight

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Tumbleweed will start blowing through this thread shortly.

Deafening silence.

Sinn Fein has nothing to offer this country.

Indeed, but there's no reason why others can't give the issue an airing, and speculate on the causes and consequences of this policy decision.

RecordStraight

There is a document here from the HSE in 2013 - consultants' basic pay is outlined between pages 41 and 58. Many of the senior positions pay over 200k as can clearly be seen.

How does Sinn Fein propose to run a health service without paying the going rate for expert doctors?

frankbrett

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yet they don't state that they would reverse them.

Interesting wording. Sounds a bit like Labour.

No wonder McGuinness wants a coalition with labour

Happyman42

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

Evidence?

Your asking for evidence of something yet to pass?

Pointless.

Though, highly skilled & mobile workers do have a habit of migrating for work, that much is obvious.

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

By the bye..... What is the Shinner plan (aside from wage slashing) to make public health better?

JacquesDeLad

Answer a question with a question.

Deflect.

Repeat.

Happyman42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Evidence?

Your asking for evidence of something yet to pass?

Pointless.

Though, highly skilled & mobile workers do have a habit of migrating for work, that much is obvious.

Well, he/she must be basing it on something? It wouldn't have been thrown out there just to promote some kind of a hysterical 'hear hear' from the FG and FF acolytes, would it?

If what he/she says is true, surely they would have figures of the amount of 'mass exodus' from the civil and public service (who have taken huge cuts to income) since the Tiger departed.

If you say something it is reasonable for somebody to question how you are arriving at that view.

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

If you say something it is reasonable for somebody to question how you are arriving at that view.

Well, no doubt you will be able to put this thread to bed by informing us how the Shinners plan to improve public health services?

No doubt the people have nothing to fear??

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

Firstly, it's commons sense. If you halve the (current or future) pay that people can earn here, many more of them will do what some doctors are already doing and emigrate.

Secondly, it's an obvious extrapolation of the current situation. Note that this refers to THE CURRENT situation, before salaries for consultants are halved under SF's proposals. Here's a short article about the situation as it has been in the last couple of years:

A recent Medical Workforce Intelligence report from the Medical Council detailed that almost one in 10 doctors aged 25 to 29 years exited the practice of medicine in Ireland. There is also an annual relative increase of 23% in the exit rate among graduates of Irish medical schools of the same age, rising from 6.4% in 2012 to 7.9% in 2013. Meanwhile, 5% of 25-29 year old doctors on the medical register were practising outside of Ireland. The report also found that one in three doctors practising in Ireland qualified elsewhere, and this reliance on international medical graduates is among the highest in the OECD.

Fianna Fáil city councillor Dr John Sheehan outlined that morale in the Irish Health service is "low". "As one Australian Irish doctor put it; 'In Australia, you don't have to begin every consultation with an apology for how long a patient has being waiting'," he said. Dr Sheehan added the training schemes in Ireland "generally are not as well structured as in other countries" such as Australia. "If we continue to have so many doctors leaving it will have huge implications for the health service. In Cork alone a number of established GPs have left to go to Qatar," he said.

So 10% of young doctors were already quitting Ireland on the back of small cuts in 2013. If salaries for consultants are halved again, and GPs are also hit, what do you expect the consequences to be?

Do you (or more importantly, Sinn Fein) expect us to believe that these highly trained, mobile, in-demand professionals just shrug their shoulders and stay in Ireland on half-pay?

And if more leave, what will happen to the already overstretched health service?

elastico

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well, he/she must be basing it on something? It wouldn't have been thrown out there just to promote some kind of a hysterical 'hear hear' from the FG and FF acolytes, would it?

If what he/she says is true, surely they would have figures of the amount of 'mass exodus' from the civil and public service (who have taken huge cuts to income) since the Tiger departed.

If you say something it is reasonable for somebody to question how you are arriving at that view.

It well documented that there are issues filling medical posts on current salaries well above whats proposed here.

Do you really think doctors will continue working in the middle of Dublin for €100K, working long hours, with about 60K left after tax when they could be getting multiples of that in other countries?

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

Firstly, it's commons sense. If you halve the (current or future) pay that people can earn here, many more of them will do what some doctors are already doing and emigrate.

Some will and some won't. Again I ask you, where are you getting 'mass exodus' from.
When you back this up with something credible, perhaps we can have a reasoned debate.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will and some won't. Again I ask you, where are you getting 'mass exodus' from.
When you back this up with something credible, perhaps we can have a reasoned debate.

You want exact numbers of departures under a Sinn Fein administration? Ridiculous. I've already shown that 10% were leaving the profession under the Haddington Road agreement, which cut pay by a fraction of Sinn Fein's proposals.

Or do you accept that if 10% leave due to small cuts, then a lot more will leave if pay is halved? And what will the effect be on the health service?

Perhaps you can provide proof of your position?

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

You want exact numbers of departures under a Sinn Fein administration? Ridiculous. I've already shown that 10% were leaving the profession under the Haddington Road agreement, which cut pay by a fraction of Sinn Fein's proposals.

Or do you accept that if 10% leave due to small cuts, then a lot more will leave if pay is halved? And what will the effect be on the health service?

Perhaps you can provide proof of your position?

I accept that some people are greedy, will take a subsidised education and then leave. I don't accept that there will be a 'mass exodus' and I have asked what you are basing this on.
Highly skilled and educated workers have taken massive cuts in wages since the downturn...there must be figures out there, kindly do the googling and back up your 'mass exodus' contention. Because I haven't seen and cannot find any evidence of 'mass exodus'.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

I accept that some people are greedy, will take a subsidised education and then leave. I don't accept that there will be a 'mass exodus' and I have asked what you are basing this on.

I've based this on current trends, as I've told you repeatedly. On what do you base your notion that not many will leave if salaries are halved? And of course the third of our doctors who are actually trained abroad will presumably be quite interested in leaving too, as they presumably only came here for the money in the first place.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I
Highly skilled and educated workers have taken massive cuts in wages since the downturn...there must be figures out there, kindly do the googling and back up your 'mass exodus' contention. Because I haven't seen and cannot find any evidence of 'mass exodus'.

Why don't you provide a list of highly skilled professionals who have had their salaries halved in the last few years? Then we can try to see how many of them left.

Also, can you please explain how the increased number (which you admit WILL happen) of doctors leaving Ireland will affect our health system?

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

I've based this on current trends, as I've told you repeatedly. On what do you base your notion that not many will leave if salaries are halved?

Why don't you provide a list of highly skilled professionals who have had their salaries halved in the last few years? Then we can try to see how many of them left.

Also, can you please explain how the increased number (which you admit WILL happen) of doctors leaving Ireland will affect our health system?

You made the contention that there will be a 'mass exodus' that it is a given.
It is up to you to back that up.
Some are leaving a system that is not producing enough doctors, that is not proof that a 'mass exodus' capable of bringing down the entire system will happen.
I'm sorry, until you produce something credible to back this up then it is just usual hysteria.
And by the way, there hasn't been a 'mass exodus' from the civil or public service, the mass exodus has been among those with no jobs at all.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

You made the contention that there will be a 'mass exodus' that it is a given.
It is up to you to back that up.
Some are leaving a system that is not producing enough doctors, that is not proof that a 'mass exodus' capable of bringing down the entire system will happen.
I'm sorry, until you produce something credible to back this up then it is just usual hysteria.
And by the way, there hasn't been a 'mass exodus' from the civil or public service, the mass exodus has been among those with no jobs at all.

I must say that I'm astonished that you are dodging the question.

Astonished.

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

I must say that I'm astonished that you are dodging the question.

Astonished.

Your question is...'how will a 'mass exodus' affect the health service?'

My answer is, there won't be a mass exodus, therefore very little affect.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Your question is...'how will a 'mass exodus' affect the health service?'

My answer is, there won't be a mass exodus, therefore very little affect.

What are you basing this on?

Medical professionals (along with IT professionals) are probably amongst the most mobile of all workers. If you halve their salaries, a lot more will leave. You agree with this. But you seem to think that only a handful will leave. I think that 20-30% may leave, which would devastate and already stretched system.

Additionally, as cited in the article above, fully ONE THIRD of our doctors are hired from abroad. Maybe some of them are coming for the weather, but I suspect most are coming for the money. Do you honestly expect us to believe that most of these doctors will stick around under SF's wage cap?

Sheldons Brain

This kind of thing is bollix. And comparing it with the recession is not valid either, people might accept a cut for a couple of years caused by economic circumstances, but not a politically inspired one when times were improving. Quite apart from those above €100,000 there are other grades, who might get say €90,000 with half the experience. Are these to be reduced as well? If not, are you going to say to these people work hard and we'll promote you when you salary is the same? And as some people leave morale would collapse further as people were required to cover the vacant positions etc.

That said Denis O'Brien might welcome this, as he owns the Beacon Hospital.

If this remains in the SF election manifesto next year, then it would suggest that they wish to avoid government.

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

You made the contention that there will be a 'mass exodus' that it is a given.
It is up to you to back that up.
Some are leaving a system that is not producing enough doctors, that is not proof that a 'mass exodus' capable of bringing down the entire system will happen.
I'm sorry, until you produce something credible to back this up then it is just usual hysteria.
And by the way, there hasn't been a 'mass exodus' from the civil or public service, the mass exodus has been among those with no jobs at all.

Of course there will be an exodus Happyman , we won't know to what extent as of yet , but to believe that people will work long hours for 60/70 k net when they can earn three times that amount elsewhere is just naïve . Particularly when you factor in how long and arduous a process it is to become a consultant in Ireland , much longer that any equivalent country.

As to the higher paid from Public Service jobs , most of became so because of length of service and it is not just their salary that they consider but the job security and pension entitlements and as you get that bit older these things loom much larger in decision making.

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

What are you basing this on?

Medical professionals (along with IT professionals) are probably amongst the most mobile of all workers. If you halve their salaries, a lot more will leave.

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.
Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.
Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

People said something similar in the early years of the GDR. Then they built the wall...

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.
Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

Some people require 200k to lead a balanced and comfortable life and are prepared to put in the effort and education to achieve it .

What is wrong with that ?

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.

And I'm waiting for you to explain why 20-30% of people won't leave based on anything other than your wishful thinking.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

Again, this rather ignores the third of our doctors who came here from abroad. What makes you think they want to stay in THEIR equivalent of Abu Dhabi on half their former pay?

Outkast_IRE

I think plenty of doctors would be willing to take 100k if they were given a contractual limit of the number of hours they can work. I think alot of doctors would take a lower wage if they were given a proper work life balance. If doctors want the opportunity to earn big big money then the private sector and the US is open to them.

RecordStraight

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think plenty of doctors would be willing to take 100k if they were given a contractual limit of the number of hours they can work. I think alot of doctors would take a lower wage if they were given a proper work life balance. If doctors want the opportunity to earn big big money then the private sector and the US is open to them.

I'd say some would - but of course that has the exact same effect as cutting the number of doctors: fewer doctor-hours available to treat patients.

daveyeh

Happyman42 won't answer the question. He has no answers.

Sinn Fein have no intention of being in government next time.

Useless $hitehawks.




$hitehawk;
A useless, going nowhere, idiot that talks crap. See also Gob$hite

RecordStraight

daveyeh wrote: »

Happyman42 won't answer the question. He has no answers.

To be fair to him, at least he has the cojones to post something. The silence from others is deafening, as predicted.

BoJack Horseman

daveyeh wrote: »

Happyman42 won't answer the question. He has no answers.

Sinn Fein have no intention of being in government next time.

Useless $hitehawks.



$hitehawk;
A useless, going nowhere, idiot that talks crap. See also Gob$hite

No intention on governing saves the need to create a policy platform.

Public health in Ireland is underfunded, but when the budgetary situation improves, so will funding.

Other than reducing all staff to a take-home pay of €60k, there seems no plan to actually make things better.

Just as well they have no interest in leading (as they say)

rockatansky

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People said something similar in the early years of the GDR. Then they built the wall...

Laughable that you would mention the GDR in a thread about Sinn Fein.

There seems to be a large number of threads about Sinn Fein started lately, I'm guessing it's this weekends Ard Fheis coupled with the recent opinion polls that has a certain few all worked up into a tizzy!

Happyman42 is right, the impending 'Mass Exodus' talk is just nonsense hype talk. Reminds me of something that Paisley and his crew would spout during the 60s and 70s about the impending onslaught from Rome.

If, for arguments sake, Sinn Fein do manage to get into power, it will be as part of a coalition government. They would not have an overall majority.

Again in theory the increased taxation for some over a certain pay level would not kick in over night, it would be something that would have to be potentially phased in over a number of budgets having been in government for a few years. They would take the time get their feet comfortable under the table before implementing such Taxation policy. They would then find themselves locked into a bitter battle with Public Sector Unions, the result of which would eventually be either a reduction on the figure mentioned at the start or a total climb down.

In reality Sinn Fein will not be in Government after the 2016 General Election. They are going to do very well in the next GE, but I can't see how any other Party will go into power with them, even Fianna Fail.

RecordStraight

rockatansky wrote: »

Happyman42 is right, the impending 'Mass Exodus' talk is just nonsense hype talk. Reminds me of something that Paisley and his crew would spout during the 60s and 70s about the impending onslaught from Rome.

Can you explain why all the consultants would stay in Ireland - even the foreign ones - once their pay is halved?

rockatansky wrote: »

If, for arguments sake, Sinn Fein do manage to get into power, it will be as part of a coalition government. They would not have an overall majority.

So...? You are counting on another party stopping them doing stupid stuff? Hardly an endorsement.

rockatansky wrote: »

Again in theory the increased taxation for some over a certain pay level would not kick in over night, it would be something that would have to be potentially phased in over a number of budgets having been in government for a few years. They would take the time get their feet comfortable under the table before implementing such Taxation policy. They would then find themselves locked into a bitter battle with Public Sector Unions, the result of which would eventually be either a reduction on the figure mentioned at the start or a total climb down.

Ok, so this a cynical ploy to win votes in your view? Making promises they have no intention of keeping?

And to think of the abuse that Labour get from Sinn Fein for not managing to force through their agenda.

rockatansky

RecordStraight wrote: »

Can you explain why all the consultants would stay in Ireland - even the foreign ones - once their pay is halved?

How will their pay be halved?? You've completely ignored my points as to why this is never going to happen. The very best they could come away with is a large reduction on the 7% figure, may 2 - 3% at best. But again I don't even think there would even be agreement on that.

RecordStraight wrote: »

So...? You are counting on another party stopping them doing stupid stuff? Hardly an endorsement.

The country is fractured Politically for a reason. I wouldn't be counting on another party soley to stop them doing 'stupid stuff' as you refer to. The point I was making that they wouldn't have Carte blanche to do as they please as they wouldn't have an overall majority. A coalition partner would just be another element to fight in such a scenario.

RecordStraight wrote: »

Ok, so this a cynical ploy to win votes in your view?

Welcome to the world of Politics, every Political Party during every General Election, in every country has 'Planned' policies. Once in Government they can turn around and say how things are much different from what they were led to believe. This shouldn't be news to you.

RecordStraight

rockatansky wrote: »

How will their pay be halved?? You've completely ignored my points as to why this is never going to happen. The very best they could come away with is a large reduction on the 7% figure, may 2 - 3% at best. But again I don't even think there would even be agreement on that.

The 100k pay cap that SF are promising, as stated. We are talking about what SF are promising to do in government.

rockatansky wrote: »

The country is fractured Politically for a reason. I wouldn't be counting on another party soley to stop them doing 'stupid stuff' as you refer to. The point I was making that they wouldn't have Carte blanche to do as they please as they wouldn't have an overall majority. A coalition partner would just be another element to fight in such a scenario.

So it's important that SF don't get too many votes, in case they destroy the health service? Ok.

rockatansky wrote: »

Welcome to the world of Politics, every Political Party during every General Election, in every country has 'Planned' policies. Once in Government they can turn around and say how things are much different from what they were led to believe. This shouldn't be news to you.

Right, but Sinn Fein have spent the last 4 years yelling from the rooftops about Labour - the junior coalition partner - breaking promises. Yet you feel that Sinn Fein do not merit criticism for promises that you think they have no intention of implementing?

rockatansky

RecordStraight wrote: »

And to think of the abuse that Labour get from Sinn Fein for not managing to force through their agenda.

Again simple Politics, this is a win win for Sinn Fein. The Labour Party is most likely where they will pick up votes. The fact that they are a junior party in a Coalition Austerity Government makes it much easier to attack them. They smell the blood of the badly wounded Labour Party and they are going in for the Kill! (Metaphorically speaking of course!)

RecordStraight

rockatansky wrote: »

Again simple Politics, this is a win win for Sinn Fein. The Labour Party is most likely where they will pick up votes. The fact that they are a junior party in a Coalition Austerity Government makes it much easier to attack them. They smell the blood of the badly wounded Labour Party and they are going in for the Kill!

Well, I admire your honesty. So your position is that this is just pure cynicism from Sinn Fein, trying to sucker in voters who like the sound of the 100k cap but who don't realise that SF have no intention of actually doing it.

I'm still undecided between this and just sheer stupidity on the part of Pearse Doherty and company.

rockatansky

RecordStraight wrote: »

Well, I admire your honesty. So your position is that this is just pure cynicism from Sinn Fein, trying to sucker in voters who like the sound of the 100k cap but who don't realise that SF have no intention of actually doing it.

I'm still undecided between this and just sheer stupidity on the part of Pearse Doherty and company.

To be honest, I don't even think Sinn Fein need to 'Sucker in' voters. In my opinion the other political parties are pushing voters towards Sinn Fein. The current government made such a mess over both the Local Property Tax and Irish Water that they were always setting themselves up to be rounded on. By setting both of the above so high for everyone from the very beginning they pushed a huge number of people, who were just surviving and putting up the austerity measures, into lower class financially. This lead to a huge mass of people who would not normally have stayed quiet suddenly becoming very vocal. That's were the real sheer stupidity was in my opinion. Fianna Fail, still tainted. Labour, part of this (and also Jobridge). Whos left? Sinn Fein and the Independents.

Timberrrrrrrr

Happyman42 wrote: »

I accept that some people are greedy, will take a subsidised education and then leave. I don't accept that there will be a 'mass exodus' and I have asked what you are basing this on.
Highly skilled and educated workers have taken massive cuts in wages since the downturn...there must be figures out there, kindly do the googling and back up your 'mass exodus' contention. Because I haven't seen and cannot find any evidence of 'mass exodus'.

So by your thinking every person who has emigrated is greedy?

rockatansky

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So by your thinking every person who has emigrated is greedy?

Talk about putting words into someones mouth.

Iwasfrozen

rockatansky wrote: »

Laughable that you would mention the GDR in a thread about Sinn Fein.

If you look up what people were saying about the brain drain in the early years of the GDR it's remarkably similar to what Happyman is saying. Most people want more than money they want a comfortable balanced life, those who receive their education free from the state and leave are leaving an unpaid debt to society.

If, for arguments sake, Sinn Fein do manage to get into power, it will be as part of a coalition government. They would not have an overall majority.

Agreed, opinion polls are misleading as they don't take transfers into consideration. Transfers historically kill SF.

Again in theory the increased taxation for some over a certain pay level would not kick in over night, it would be something that would have to be potentially phased in over a number of budgets having been in government for a few years. They would take the time get their feet comfortable under the table before implementing such Taxation policy. They would then find themselves locked into a bitter battle with Public Sector Unions, the result of which would eventually be either a reduction on the figure mentioned at the start or a total climb down.

In reality Sinn Fein will not be in Government after the 2016 General Election. They are going to do very well in the next GE, but I can't see how any other Party will go into power with them, even Fianna Fail.

Agree 100% they will see a large increase in number of seats and they will be a major party, maybe leading opposition, but they won't be in government as they have no chance of getting enough to be a senior coalition party.

Timberrrrrrrr

rockatansky wrote: »

Talk about putting words into someones mouth.

How many emigrants have had a subsidised education and then left to find better paid work elsewhere? Or is only "Da rich lads" who are greedy?

Happyman42

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So by your thinking every person who has emigrated is greedy?

Anybody who leaves based solely on the amount of money they can earn (which is why the OP is saying there will be a shock horror 'mass exodus') is by definition 'greedy'. Not everybody is, and there are a myriad of other considerations taken into account.
The biggest complaint I hear from public service doctors is the amount of hours they have to work and the quallity of their lives. I also seem to remember James O'Reilly promising to double the amount of doctors in the public service in his pre-coming to power election promises to alleviate that problem. How did that go? :rolleyes:

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Anybody who leaves based solely on the amount of money they can earn (which is why the OP is saying there will be a shock horror 'mass exodus') is by definition 'greedy'. Not everybody is, and there are a myriad of other considerations taken into account.
The biggest complaint I hear from public service doctors is the amount of hours they have to work and the quallity of their lives. I also seem to remember James O'Reilly promising to double the amount of doctors in the public service in his pre-coming to power election promises to alleviate that problem. How did that go? :rolleyes:

I don't recall O'Reilly saying that. Can you provide any proof?

Also, whatever about increased numbers of Irish doctors leaving, you are ignoring the one third of doctors in Ireland who came here from abroad, presumably for the money. How many of them will stick around when Sinn Fein halve their salaries?

Sierra Oscar

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

There is already precedent for this happening.

The HSE cut the pay for junior consultants and found it impossible to fill posts to such an extent that it had to reverse the cuts thereafter.

Journal.ie (May 2013) - HSE struggles to recruit consultants and junior doctors

THE HEALTH SERVICE EXECUTIVE was forced to re-advertise almost a fifth of its consultant vacancies last year – while at the same time struggling to find applicants for junior doctor posts in the south-east region.

Irish Times (July 2014) - Hospital consultants to be offered 24% pay rise

In October 2012 the then minister for health James Reilly reduced pay for newly appointed consultants by 30 per cent, a move medical organisations claimed led to a brain drain among doctors and left the health service unable to fill a number of key medical posts.

SF's loony policies would extend the problem not only within our health service, but also across our public sector as a whole.

General practice across the country is already in crisis as the HSE are unable to fill GP posts as current GP's retire. It is a growing crisis, but don't expect it to hit the papers for a few months yet. What SF are proposing is reckless and irresponsible, but you can be sure it will be their first broken promise when in power.

Happyman42

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There is already precedent for this happening.

The HSE cut the pay for junior consultants and found it impossible to fill posts to such an extent that it had to reverse the cuts thereafter.

Journal.ie (May 2013) - HSE struggles to recruit consultants and junior doctors



Irish Times (July 2014) - Hospital consultants to be offered 24% pay rise ]/QUOTE]


Would you call 19 positions out of 116 a 'mass' or 'some'? And it seems to me they where all filled.



The core problem is that we don't produce enough doctors.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Would you call 19 positions out of 116 a 'mass' or 'some'? And it seems to me they where all filled.

A circa 20% cut in pay resulted in them not being able to fill 16% of positions. What happens when rates are cut by 50% or thereabouts under SF proposals?

Happyman42 wrote: »

The core problem is that we don't produce enough doctors.

That's a whole other debate, but it has nothing to do with what Sinn Fein proposes to do. In fact, we will undoubtedly produce less if Sinn Fein cuts the career prospects of those who do slog through medicine.

What happens when Sinn Fein slash consultants' pay by half or so? When the foreign doctors move to somewhere that pays them what they are worth? When we can't attract any more foreign doctors due to our sub-market pay rates?

"I don't think they will leave" is a lovely sentiment, but it's not very realistic and I don't think you are persuading anyone.

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

A circa 20% cut in pay resulted in them not being able to fill 16% of positions. What happens when rates are cut by 50% or thereabouts under SF proposals?

Where are you getting that they where not able to fill the positions? They said they would be able to by organising recruitment drives. The posts can be filled if they spread the net wide enough, which supports the point that we are not producing enough doctors.

That's a whole other debate, but it has nothing to do with what Sinn Fein proposes to do. In fact, we will undoubtedly produce less if Sinn Fein cuts the career prospects of those who do slog through medicine.

What happens when Sinn Fein slash consultants' pay by half or so? When the foreign doctors move to somewhere that pays them what they are worth?

Where is this place...our public sector wages are highly envied in most places, look at what doctors who 'slog' just as hard in Norway (similar pop size) are paid. Funnily enough it is around the 100,000 mark.

"I don't think they will leave" is a lovely sentiment, but it's not very realistic and I don't think you are persuading anyone.

And you have shown absolutely nothing (16 out 119 posts which where eventually filled) that shows there will be 'mass exodus'.