Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

RecordStraight

Sinn Fein promises to cap public sector salaries at €100,000.

Mod: Updated policies can be found here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94728477#post94728477

Amongst our proposals are the introduction of a third rate of income tax of 48% on income over €100,000, the introduction of a 1% wealth tax on assets valued at over €1 million, the standardisation of all discretionary tax reliefs, the capping of public sector salaries at €100,000, increases of 10% in both Capital Gains and Capital Acquisitions taxes, and a cut in the salaries of government Ministers, TD's and Senators. We completely oppose the introduction of the property tax and water charges.

As we know, consultants in our already very stretched health service earn in excess of 200k per year from their public sector roles. Even many GPs will be earning well over 100k.

The obvious consequence of the cap will be a mass exodus of doctors and consultants from the Irish health system to other countries where they can earn twice or three times as much, and the impossibility of recruiting qualified people into vacant positions from abroad.

This will obviously result in the complete collapse of the Irish health system. Presumably the brainy people at the top in Sinn Fein know this and do not care, or else they didn't realise this and are less than competent. Or else they do realise it, but it's just another populist lie that they are trotting out to buy votes. I really don't see another explanation.

Timberrrrrrrr

We completely oppose the introduction of the property tax and water charges.

Yet they don't state that they would reverse them. As for a cap of 100k? Unrealistic and unworkable.

RecordStraight

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

As for a cap of 100k? Unrealistic and unworkable.

Indeed, which makes me wonder why they plan to introduce it. As I said, it either comes down to gross mismanagement (they don't realise the consequences), gross cynicism (they do realise the consequences, but don't care) or gross populism (they do realise the consequences, but it's only a manifesto lie to win votes).

JacquesDeLad

Tumbleweed will start blowing through this thread shortly.

Deafening silence.

Sinn Fein has nothing to offer this country.

RecordStraight

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Tumbleweed will start blowing through this thread shortly.

Deafening silence.

Sinn Fein has nothing to offer this country.

Indeed, but there's no reason why others can't give the issue an airing, and speculate on the causes and consequences of this policy decision.

RecordStraight

There is a document here from the HSE in 2013 - consultants' basic pay is outlined between pages 41 and 58. Many of the senior positions pay over 200k as can clearly be seen.

How does Sinn Fein propose to run a health service without paying the going rate for expert doctors?

frankbrett

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yet they don't state that they would reverse them.

Interesting wording. Sounds a bit like Labour.

No wonder McGuinness wants a coalition with labour

Happyman42

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

Evidence?

Your asking for evidence of something yet to pass?

Pointless.

Though, highly skilled & mobile workers do have a habit of migrating for work, that much is obvious.

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

By the bye..... What is the Shinner plan (aside from wage slashing) to make public health better?

JacquesDeLad

Answer a question with a question.

Deflect.

Repeat.

Happyman42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Evidence?

Your asking for evidence of something yet to pass?

Pointless.

Though, highly skilled & mobile workers do have a habit of migrating for work, that much is obvious.

Well, he/she must be basing it on something? It wouldn't have been thrown out there just to promote some kind of a hysterical 'hear hear' from the FG and FF acolytes, would it?

If what he/she says is true, surely they would have figures of the amount of 'mass exodus' from the civil and public service (who have taken huge cuts to income) since the Tiger departed.

If you say something it is reasonable for somebody to question how you are arriving at that view.

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

If you say something it is reasonable for somebody to question how you are arriving at that view.

Well, no doubt you will be able to put this thread to bed by informing us how the Shinners plan to improve public health services?

No doubt the people have nothing to fear??

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you show any evidence to back your statement that there would be a 'mass exodus'. Where exactly are you getting this from?

Firstly, it's commons sense. If you halve the (current or future) pay that people can earn here, many more of them will do what some doctors are already doing and emigrate.

Secondly, it's an obvious extrapolation of the current situation. Note that this refers to THE CURRENT situation, before salaries for consultants are halved under SF's proposals. Here's a short article about the situation as it has been in the last couple of years:

A recent Medical Workforce Intelligence report from the Medical Council detailed that almost one in 10 doctors aged 25 to 29 years exited the practice of medicine in Ireland. There is also an annual relative increase of 23% in the exit rate among graduates of Irish medical schools of the same age, rising from 6.4% in 2012 to 7.9% in 2013. Meanwhile, 5% of 25-29 year old doctors on the medical register were practising outside of Ireland. The report also found that one in three doctors practising in Ireland qualified elsewhere, and this reliance on international medical graduates is among the highest in the OECD.

Fianna Fáil city councillor Dr John Sheehan outlined that morale in the Irish Health service is "low". "As one Australian Irish doctor put it; 'In Australia, you don't have to begin every consultation with an apology for how long a patient has being waiting'," he said. Dr Sheehan added the training schemes in Ireland "generally are not as well structured as in other countries" such as Australia. "If we continue to have so many doctors leaving it will have huge implications for the health service. In Cork alone a number of established GPs have left to go to Qatar," he said.

So 10% of young doctors were already quitting Ireland on the back of small cuts in 2013. If salaries for consultants are halved again, and GPs are also hit, what do you expect the consequences to be?

Do you (or more importantly, Sinn Fein) expect us to believe that these highly trained, mobile, in-demand professionals just shrug their shoulders and stay in Ireland on half-pay?

And if more leave, what will happen to the already overstretched health service?

elastico

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well, he/she must be basing it on something? It wouldn't have been thrown out there just to promote some kind of a hysterical 'hear hear' from the FG and FF acolytes, would it?

If what he/she says is true, surely they would have figures of the amount of 'mass exodus' from the civil and public service (who have taken huge cuts to income) since the Tiger departed.

If you say something it is reasonable for somebody to question how you are arriving at that view.

It well documented that there are issues filling medical posts on current salaries well above whats proposed here.

Do you really think doctors will continue working in the middle of Dublin for €100K, working long hours, with about 60K left after tax when they could be getting multiples of that in other countries?

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

Firstly, it's commons sense. If you halve the (current or future) pay that people can earn here, many more of them will do what some doctors are already doing and emigrate.

Some will and some won't. Again I ask you, where are you getting 'mass exodus' from.
When you back this up with something credible, perhaps we can have a reasoned debate.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will and some won't. Again I ask you, where are you getting 'mass exodus' from.
When you back this up with something credible, perhaps we can have a reasoned debate.

You want exact numbers of departures under a Sinn Fein administration? Ridiculous. I've already shown that 10% were leaving the profession under the Haddington Road agreement, which cut pay by a fraction of Sinn Fein's proposals.

Or do you accept that if 10% leave due to small cuts, then a lot more will leave if pay is halved? And what will the effect be on the health service?

Perhaps you can provide proof of your position?

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

You want exact numbers of departures under a Sinn Fein administration? Ridiculous. I've already shown that 10% were leaving the profession under the Haddington Road agreement, which cut pay by a fraction of Sinn Fein's proposals.

Or do you accept that if 10% leave due to small cuts, then a lot more will leave if pay is halved? And what will the effect be on the health service?

Perhaps you can provide proof of your position?

I accept that some people are greedy, will take a subsidised education and then leave. I don't accept that there will be a 'mass exodus' and I have asked what you are basing this on.
Highly skilled and educated workers have taken massive cuts in wages since the downturn...there must be figures out there, kindly do the googling and back up your 'mass exodus' contention. Because I haven't seen and cannot find any evidence of 'mass exodus'.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

I accept that some people are greedy, will take a subsidised education and then leave. I don't accept that there will be a 'mass exodus' and I have asked what you are basing this on.

I've based this on current trends, as I've told you repeatedly. On what do you base your notion that not many will leave if salaries are halved? And of course the third of our doctors who are actually trained abroad will presumably be quite interested in leaving too, as they presumably only came here for the money in the first place.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I
Highly skilled and educated workers have taken massive cuts in wages since the downturn...there must be figures out there, kindly do the googling and back up your 'mass exodus' contention. Because I haven't seen and cannot find any evidence of 'mass exodus'.

Why don't you provide a list of highly skilled professionals who have had their salaries halved in the last few years? Then we can try to see how many of them left.

Also, can you please explain how the increased number (which you admit WILL happen) of doctors leaving Ireland will affect our health system?

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

I've based this on current trends, as I've told you repeatedly. On what do you base your notion that not many will leave if salaries are halved?

Why don't you provide a list of highly skilled professionals who have had their salaries halved in the last few years? Then we can try to see how many of them left.

Also, can you please explain how the increased number (which you admit WILL happen) of doctors leaving Ireland will affect our health system?

You made the contention that there will be a 'mass exodus' that it is a given.
It is up to you to back that up.
Some are leaving a system that is not producing enough doctors, that is not proof that a 'mass exodus' capable of bringing down the entire system will happen.
I'm sorry, until you produce something credible to back this up then it is just usual hysteria.
And by the way, there hasn't been a 'mass exodus' from the civil or public service, the mass exodus has been among those with no jobs at all.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

You made the contention that there will be a 'mass exodus' that it is a given.
It is up to you to back that up.
Some are leaving a system that is not producing enough doctors, that is not proof that a 'mass exodus' capable of bringing down the entire system will happen.
I'm sorry, until you produce something credible to back this up then it is just usual hysteria.
And by the way, there hasn't been a 'mass exodus' from the civil or public service, the mass exodus has been among those with no jobs at all.

I must say that I'm astonished that you are dodging the question.

Astonished.

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

I must say that I'm astonished that you are dodging the question.

Astonished.

Your question is...'how will a 'mass exodus' affect the health service?'

My answer is, there won't be a mass exodus, therefore very little affect.

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Your question is...'how will a 'mass exodus' affect the health service?'

My answer is, there won't be a mass exodus, therefore very little affect.

What are you basing this on?

Medical professionals (along with IT professionals) are probably amongst the most mobile of all workers. If you halve their salaries, a lot more will leave. You agree with this. But you seem to think that only a handful will leave. I think that 20-30% may leave, which would devastate and already stretched system.

Additionally, as cited in the article above, fully ONE THIRD of our doctors are hired from abroad. Maybe some of them are coming for the weather, but I suspect most are coming for the money. Do you honestly expect us to believe that most of these doctors will stick around under SF's wage cap?

Sheldons Brain

This kind of thing is bollix. And comparing it with the recession is not valid either, people might accept a cut for a couple of years caused by economic circumstances, but not a politically inspired one when times were improving. Quite apart from those above €100,000 there are other grades, who might get say €90,000 with half the experience. Are these to be reduced as well? If not, are you going to say to these people work hard and we'll promote you when you salary is the same? And as some people leave morale would collapse further as people were required to cover the vacant positions etc.

That said Denis O'Brien might welcome this, as he owns the Beacon Hospital.

If this remains in the SF election manifesto next year, then it would suggest that they wish to avoid government.

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

You made the contention that there will be a 'mass exodus' that it is a given.
It is up to you to back that up.
Some are leaving a system that is not producing enough doctors, that is not proof that a 'mass exodus' capable of bringing down the entire system will happen.
I'm sorry, until you produce something credible to back this up then it is just usual hysteria.
And by the way, there hasn't been a 'mass exodus' from the civil or public service, the mass exodus has been among those with no jobs at all.

Of course there will be an exodus Happyman , we won't know to what extent as of yet , but to believe that people will work long hours for 60/70 k net when they can earn three times that amount elsewhere is just naïve . Particularly when you factor in how long and arduous a process it is to become a consultant in Ireland , much longer that any equivalent country.

As to the higher paid from Public Service jobs , most of became so because of length of service and it is not just their salary that they consider but the job security and pension entitlements and as you get that bit older these things loom much larger in decision making.

Happyman42

RecordStraight wrote: »

What are you basing this on?

Medical professionals (along with IT professionals) are probably amongst the most mobile of all workers. If you halve their salaries, a lot more will leave.

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.
Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.
Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

People said something similar in the early years of the GDR. Then they built the wall...

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.
Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

Some people require 200k to lead a balanced and comfortable life and are prepared to put in the effort and education to achieve it .

What is wrong with that ?

RecordStraight

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some will leave.
I am still waiting for something credible to show that there will be a 'mass exodus' other than supposition.

And I'm waiting for you to explain why 20-30% of people won't leave based on anything other than your wishful thinking.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some people work for money alone, the majority work to live a balanced and comfortable life where money is not everything.
If money was the only consideration there would hardly be a worker left in the country.

I am off to work in the garden, I don't get paid for it but I enjoy it, that is why I am not in the sands of Abu Dabi or some such place. Good afternoon, hopefully you will have some figures for us by evening.

Again, this rather ignores the third of our doctors who came here from abroad. What makes you think they want to stay in THEIR equivalent of Abu Dhabi on half their former pay?

Outkast_IRE

I think plenty of doctors would be willing to take 100k if they were given a contractual limit of the number of hours they can work. I think alot of doctors would take a lower wage if they were given a proper work life balance. If doctors want the opportunity to earn big big money then the private sector and the US is open to them.

RecordStraight

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think plenty of doctors would be willing to take 100k if they were given a contractual limit of the number of hours they can work. I think alot of doctors would take a lower wage if they were given a proper work life balance. If doctors want the opportunity to earn big big money then the private sector and the US is open to them.

I'd say some would - but of course that has the exact same effect as cutting the number of doctors: fewer doctor-hours available to treat patients.