Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

JacquesDeLad · 10-03-2015 06:41PM

Until there's a way of capping people's IQ and physically strength, to make everyone actually equal in ability, capping people's pay regardless of ability is unfair and discriminatory.

Communists see people as drones not as individuals. It's as toxic an ideology as Islamic extremism.

Ace2007 · 10-03-2015 06:43PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

That they will cut salaries and do nothing else? Is that what you are saying? Funny, I just read a long PDF on their proposals for the health service, of which the cap was just a tiny part.

Can you post a link of this pdf - i'm sure they explain how their going to fund all their proposed changes?

Among the cuts SF are proposing to the PS sector and TD's, i wonder if he'll remove the gold plated Private health care package that they are all entitled to - you know the one's that cost up to 7k a year, or do you think they will keep these entitlements and go to the private hospitals where the top doctors charge a fortune?

Permabear · 10-03-2015 06:43PM

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RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 06:47PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Can you post a link of this pdf - i'm sure they explain how their going to fund all their proposed changes?

Presumably by 'taxing the rich'. How obliging of the rich to stick around once we start to tax the nads off them.

I'm still more interested in how the document explains that the doctors would stick around to work for half pay.

Godge · 10-03-2015 06:48PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Is that an opinion or have you any research/link etc?

I would have thought that SF who are proposing a new policy of a salary cap would have done the research and we could analyse it. Are you accepting that they have nothing to back up their policy?

I did a little research online. Zimbabwe have done it:

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/news/zimsit_government-finally-puts-a-cap-on-ceo-salaries/

Let us follow a basket-case economy.

Now maybe you would post up an example of a functioning economy that has imposed a salary cap on doctors?

exgp · 10-03-2015 07:06PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It's available on the NHS and Chichester Clinic Belfast was offering the procedure as well at the time:

It is also available in the Galway Clinic.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 07:34PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is the kind of frothy hysterics I was complaining about. Please show us all where I have said that they should be paid the same?

Godge · 10-03-2015 07:36PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

This is the kind of frothy hysterics I was complaining about. Please show us all where I have said that they should be paid the same?

Before anyone goes near answering any of your questions, it might be helpful if you answered a few of the ones directed at you. You are notorious for avoiding them.

Here are some of mine from today and there are plenty of others if you would prefer to answer those.

Godge wrote: »

I would have thought that SF who are proposing a new policy of a salary cap would have done the research and we could analyse it. Are you accepting that they have nothing to back up their policy?

I did a little research online. Zimbabwe have done it:

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/news/zimsit_government-finally-puts-a-cap-on-ceo-salaries/

Let us follow a basket-case economy.

Now maybe you would post up an example of a functioning economy that has imposed a salary cap on doctors?

Godge wrote: »

Their relative worth as a person is exactly the same but they are not being paid to be persons.

They are being paid to be a clerical officer and a cardiologist respectively.

Put it another way, why don't you sign over a share of your business to each of your employees so that you all equally have a share in the business? Go on, answer that.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 07:45PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

This is the kind of frothy hysterics I was complaining about.

You seem to be getting a bit hysterical about hysterics

You can't provide coherent answers to the questions, which is not a crime, but waving your arms and crying 'hysteria' every second post isn't really advancing the discussion.

I'll ask again - in the long policy document from Sinn Fein that you read, did they outline why they think our doctors will continue to work on half their former pay?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 07:47PM

Godge wrote: »

Before anyone goes near answering any of your questions, it might be helpful if you answered a few of the ones directed at you. You are notorious for avoiding them.

Here are some of mine from today and there are plenty of others if you would prefer to answer those.

I cannot look at your link atm as I am on A phone.
Regarding sharing my business, my core skill is what the business is so without me it doesn't exist. Both businesses only require employees at key times. I have always been very interested in a large jewellery business in my county town who did what you say and is still thriving through boom and recession 30 odd yrs later.
My personal experience in business is , if you pay people fairly productivity is a fiddle as they have a vested interest in you doing well.

Ace2007 · 10-03-2015 07:50PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Presumably by 'taxing the rich'. How obliging of the rich to stick around once we start to tax the nads off them.

I'm still more interested in how the document explains that the doctors would stick around to work for half pay.

Yea they won't answer those questions, when we look for backup to their statements, they run to the hills, but when you make an agreement against SF, the first thing a poster here wants is proof

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 07:53PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I cannot look at your link atm as I am on A phone.
Regarding sharing my business, my core skill is what the business is so without me it doesn't exist. Both businesses only require employees at key times. I have always been very interested in a large jewellery business in my county town who did what you say and is still thriving through boom and recession 30 odd yrs later.
My personal experience in business is , if you pay people fairly productivity is a fiddle as they have a vested interest in you doing well.

I asked this before but you seemed to miss it.

Let's you required a manager and the perfect candidate came along. Their current salary is 30k pa and they say they want 32k pa from you to move jobs. Would you hire that perfect candidate or would you dismiss them as greedy?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 07:54PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

You seem to be getting a bit hysterical about hysterics

You can't provide coherent answers to the questions, which is not a crime, but waving your arms and crying 'hysteria' every second post isn't really advancing the discussion.

I'll ask again - in the long policy document from Sinn Fein that you read, did they outline why they think our doctors will continue to iwork on half their former pay?

I have never said, that everyone should be paid the same, but
sone hysterical poster goes on A rant about Polyanna and I have to let it pass? That would suit your limited thread alright!

They intend to limit PS pay, why would they need to focus on one group? If a doctor doesn't want the job, the are free to do what they choose.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 07:58PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

They intend to limit PS pay, why would they need to focus on one group? If a doctor doesn't want the job, the are free to do what they choose.

Right, but if the 30% of our doctors who come here from abroad primarily for the money, plus a smaller proportion of Irish doctors, leave the system, what happens?

Surely the long PDF policy document on health reforms that you mentioned addresses this issue?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 07:59PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I asked this before but you seemed to miss it.

Let's you required a manager and the perfect candidate came along. Their current salary is 30k pa and they say they want 32k pa from you to move jobs. Would you hire that perfect candidate or would you dismiss them as greedy?

I wouldn't define looking for an extra 2000 as greedy and I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
I was very clear in what I defined as greed and posted a definition of it earlier.

Permabear · 10-03-2015 08:06PM

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Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 08:09PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Right, but if the 30% of our doctors who come here from abroad primarily for the money, plus a smaller proportion of Irish doctors, leave the system, what happens?

Surely the long PDF policy document on health reforms that you mentioned addresses this issue?

Have you anything to back up that they will leave? Again, in my opinion, some will leave and some won't and some won't come and some will. If, as other countries like Norway, Switzerland and Luxembourg you get the system right, it will be attractive to those who can live on 100,00 a year. This country is still a great place to live. Public servants whose skills are not marketable abroad will tell you that, as will many many people who have come here to rear their families and enjoy the country.

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 08:13PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I wouldn't define looking for an extra 2000 as greedy and I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
I was very clear in what I defined as greed and posted a definition of it earlier.

You change position quicker than a porn star

Happyman42 wrote: »

If it is solely for money when already well paid then yes.

greed (grēd)
n.
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:

Permabear · 10-03-2015 08:17PM

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Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 08:19PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

North Korea would be more like it with Kim Ill Adams at the helm

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 08:20PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes, value them as people not commodities.

I believe that in a country of this size and economy that between 100,000 and 150,000 is the upper limitof what any PS should be paid. Nobody should be paid less than 40,000 as I believe (and I may be wrong) that is what is required to live a half decent existence presently.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 08:21PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Have you anything to back up that they will leave?

Seriously, this refrain is the best you can do? You must know it's hopelessly feeble and wouldn't fool a child. Evidence was long ago posted showing how they couldn't fill 16% of vacancies until the government granted a 24% pay rise, and you expect us to believe that a 50% cut wouldn't make much difference?

Can you provide evidence of that?

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 08:24PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You change position quicker than a porn star

Looking for 2000 extra is excessive avarice? Really?

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 08:26PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Looking for 2000 extra is excessive avarice? Really?

2000 or 20,000, It shouldn't make a difference to one such as yourself who claims

If it is solely for money when already well paid then yes.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 08:27PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well studying how they got it right and held onto their skilled people while paying them less is a much more sensible option than trying to compete with Qatar, Australia and Canada..no?

rockatansky · 10-03-2015 08:28PM

Maybe I'm getting it wrong here but are people not making the argument here that Sinn Fein plan to reduce all Consultant and Doctors pay to 100k?

This is from their website:

Health (cont.)
» Reduce consultants’ pay by 15% on income between €150,000 and €200,000; and 30% on income of over €200,000 per annum: saves €9 million
Public Pay & Pensions
» Reductions in public sector pay & pensions, including 15% reduction in public sector salary between €100,000 & €150,000 and 30% on income over €150,000: saves €31.5 million

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 08:30PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Seriously, this refrain is the best you can do? You must know it's hopelessly feeble and wouldn't fool a child. Evidence was long ago posted showing how they couldn't fill 16% of vacancies until the government granted a 24% pay rise, and you expect us to believe that a 50% cut wouldn't make much difference?

Can you provide evidence of that?

Look, unless you can show us evidence then it I'd just your opinion. You state it as a fact, it isn't, no matter how much you want it to be.

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 08:32PM

rockatansky wrote: »

Maybe I'm getting it wrong here but are people not making the argument here that Sinn Fein plan to reduce all Consultant and Doctors pay to 100k?

This is from their website:

Health (cont.)
» Reduce consultants’ pay by 15% on income between €150,000 and €200,000; and 30% on income of over €200,000 per annum: saves €9 million
Public Pay & Pensions
» Reductions in public sector pay & pensions, including 15% reduction in public sector salary between €100,000 & €150,000 and 30% on income over €150,000: saves €31.5 million

From the link in the op

Amongst our proposals are the introduction of a third rate of income tax of 48% on income over €100,000, the introduction of a 1% wealth tax on assets valued at over €1 million, the standardisation of all discretionary tax reliefs, the capping of public sector salaries at €100,000, increases of 10% in both Capital Gains and Capital Acquisitions taxes, and a cut in the salaries of government Ministers, TD's and Senators. We completely oppose the introduction of the property tax and water charges.

rockatansky · 10-03-2015 08:36PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

From the link in the op

Yes, when you click on that link there is a .PDF you can download called 'Pre-Budget2014Submission.pdf'. This is taken directly from this PDF:

health
» Deliver further savings on branded medicines and alter
prescribing practices: saves €258 million
» Introduction of generic substitution and reference pricing
for the 20 most commonly used off-patent medications:
saves €66 million
» Partial introduction of full cost of private care in public
hospitals: saves €120 million
» Implementation of measures to improve system
productivity, including strategic purchasing: saves €205.9
million
» Reduce consultants’ pay by 15% on income between
€150,000 and €200,000; and 30% on income of over
€200,000 per annum: saves €9 million
PUblIc Pay & PensIons
» Reductions in public sector pay & pensions, including 15%
reduction in public sector salaries between €100,000 &
€150,000 and 30% on income over €150,000: saves €31.5
million

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 08:38PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Look, unless you can show us evidence then it I'd just your opinion. You state it as a fact, it isn't, no matter how much you want it to be.

Yes, but it's opinion founded on economic reality, not in Sinn Fein dreamland, where foreign doctors stick around because [some reason]

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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